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The Sternguard entry further proves my point --- actually…and I quote:

"Each time a SGVS fires, the controlling player can choose which type of ammunition is being used"

“Each special ammunition type replaces the boltgun profile, with the one shown here”

It then lists each and everyone one the Shooting Profiles for the type of Ammunition used!

No where in Foehammer’s shooting profile does it mention Thunderhammer…..every other weapon out there shows additional special abilities in the weapons shooting profile (stat line).

Gurilla wrote:Thunder Hammer is an additional weapon characteristic just like rending

No, Thunder Hammer is the NAME of the weapon in it's basic form, whilst Foehammer is the name of a single variation of the Thunder Hammer.

So, the general point of the "opposition" is that the statline should read as :

Foehammer Range:6" Str:10 AP:1 Assault1,Thunder Hammer

By that definition, EVERY weapon should make a reference to it's type in it's statline, thus even weapons of accepted and unquestioned types should read as, for example,

Lasgcannon Range:48" Str9 AP:2 Heavy1,Laser,

However, they don't contain this redundant statement because the weapon's description serves to make this clear instead.

In answer to your Sternguard point, with the Foehammer there is NO option to choose from because it is a Thunderhammer no matter what you do with it ! You are not changing the type of head on the hammer, for example, so there is no need to choose. The profile only exists to allow the player to throw the thing because the BRB doesn't provide rules for such an action.

Except that "Laser" doesn't have any special rules.

Thunder Hammer does.

It isn't in the Profile

Thus it does not have the special rules.

It is THAT simple.

Gurilla wrote:The Sternguard entry further proves my point --- actually…and I quote:

"Each time a SGVS fires, the controlling player can choose which type of ammunition is being used"

“Each special ammunition type replaces the boltgun profile, with the one shown here”

It then lists each and everyone one the Shooting Profiles for the type of Ammunition used!

No where in Foehammer’s shooting profile does it mention Thunderhammer…..every other weapon out there shows additional special abilities in the weapons shooting profile (stat line).

Yes, they may choose an ammunition type, which means that either

A. This special rule, (Special Issue Ammunition) which is not listed in the profile of the weapons applies to them, and they may still fire, hence a special rule can apply to weapons and not be in the weapon profile.
or B. This special rule, (Special Issue Ammunition) which is not listed in the profile for the weapons then definately does NOT apply to them, becuase you use ONLY the profile for the weapon, not the special rules that realtes to them but are not listed on said profile. In this case you CANNOT fire any rounds other than normal bolter rounds.

If A is true, sternguard are fine, and the Foehammer uses the special rules for being a thunder hammer in its shooting attack.
If B is ture, sternguard are broken, and the Foehammer does not use the special rules listed for being a thunder hammer, and we must go back and reevaluate the special rules for all shooting attacks in the entire game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:Except that "Laser" doesn't have any special rules.

Thunder Hammer does.

It isn't in the Profile

Thus it does not have the special rules.

It is THAT simple.

Except that "thunder hammer" is not a special rule, its an item which has special rules associated with it, and this item IS a thunder hammer

Reaper6 - Does Laser change the ability of the weapon? No, it is a Strength 9 weapon.

However:

Multi-melta - Range: 24", Str 8, AP 1, Heavy 1, Melta ==> Why the reference to its type, because the type modifies the way it works!
Assault Cannon - Range 24", Str 6, AP 4, Heavy 4, Rending ===> Why the reference to its type, because the type modifies the way it works!
Thunderfire Cannon: Subterranean - Range 60", Str 4, AP -, Heavy 4, Blast, Tremor ===> Why the reference to its type, because the type modifies the way it works!
Devourer - Range: 18" Str: S-1, AP -, Assault2X, Living Ammunition, Max Str 6 ===> Why the reference to its type, because the type modifies the way it works!

They do not give every weapon a reference to its type in it's statline --- unless it changes the ability or the way the weapon works.

However, if the weapon does have a special or additional ability it is mentioned in the statline! No if's, and's, or but's!!!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gwar is faster than I am and made the point first!

i don't know the space wolves codex well but from reading this i would give it to the wolf player. It says its a thunder hammer that can be used in range combat with profile X. Its still a thunder hammer. Those are my thoughts, i am in no means the smartest warhammer player but i would still give it to them.

Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Except that "Laser" doesn't have any special rules.

Thunder Hammer does.

It isn't in the Profile

Thus it does not have the special rules.

It is THAT simple.

Except that "thunder hammer" is not a special rule, its an item which has special rules associated with it, and this item IS a thunder hammer

Thunder hammer is a item which can be used in close combat as a weapon. It has rules for the effect in close combat. It does not have rule for an effect in the shooting phase.

Gurilla wrote:

However, if the weapon does have a special or additional ability it is mentioned in the statline! No if's, and's, or but's!!!

Please read my above posts.

Demogerg wrote:
Yes, they may choose an ammunition type, which means that either

A. This special rule, (Special Issue Ammunition) which is not listed in the profile of the weapons applies to them, and they may still fire, hence a special rule can apply to weapons and not be in the weapon profile.
or B. This special rule, (Special Issue Ammunition) which is not listed in the profile for the weapons then definately does NOT apply to them, becuase you use ONLY the profile for the weapon, not the special rules that realtes to them but are not listed on said profile. In this case you CANNOT fire any rounds other than normal bolter rounds.

If A is true, sternguard are fine, and the Foehammer uses the special rules for being a thunder hammer in its shooting attack.
If B is ture, sternguard are broken, and the Foehammer does not use the special rules listed for being a thunder hammer, and we must go back and reevaluate the special rules for all shooting attacks in the entire game.

Yes, but the special rule DOES list the abilities of the special issued ammunition in a statline that REPLACES the standard boltgun statline. How can you not see that?

If they wanted the Foehammer to effect its target like a Thunder Hammer in the shooting phase they would have listed it as such...I am sorry that a Mini-Railgun is not enough for you, but I can't see how the wording of the rules can be misconstrued here....guess I am to logical.

Demogerg wrote:
Yes, they may choose an ammunition type, which means that either

A. This special rule, (Special Issue Ammunition) which is not listed in the profile of the weapons applies to them, and they may still fire, hence a special rule can apply to weapons and not be in the weapon profile.
or B. This special rule, (Special Issue Ammunition) which is not listed in the profile for the weapons then definately does NOT apply to them, becuase you use ONLY the profile for the weapon, not the special rules that realtes to them but are not listed on said profile. In this case you CANNOT fire any rounds other than normal bolter rounds.

If A is true, sternguard are fine, and the Foehammer uses the special rules for being a thunder hammer in its shooting attack.
If B is ture, sternguard are broken, and the Foehammer does not use the special rules listed for being a thunder hammer, and we must go back and reevaluate the special rules for all shooting attacks in the entire game.

False choice. The special ammunition rule replaces the bolter profile with 3 other profiles. The named "ammunition" types are in terms of rules 3 completely different weapons. The regular bolter profile remains an option if the sternguard choose not to use any of the special ammunition. Arjac's foe hammer has two profiles; one for close combat and one for shooting. The two profiles have nothing to do with each other.

Tri wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Except that "Laser" doesn't have any special rules.

Thunder Hammer does.

It isn't in the Profile

Thus it does not have the special rules.

It is THAT simple.

Except that "thunder hammer" is not a special rule, its an item which has special rules associated with it, and this item IS a thunder hammer

Thunder hammer is a item which can be used in close combat as a weapon. It has rules for the effect in close combat. It does not have rule for an effect in the shooting phase.

Thunder hammer is a special close combat weapon that has special rules that apply to it, normally this is only used in close combat, the Foehammer is an exception to the normal rules and it is a thunder hammer used as a shooting attack, you still follow the special rules associated with it. In this case, a model that suffers a wound from a thunder hammer has its I reduced to 1 untill the end of the next players assault phase.

i am with demogreg on this

Gurilla wrote:

Yes, but the special rule DOES list the abilities of the special issued ammunition in a statline that REPLACES the standard boltgun statline. How can you not see that?

If they wanted the Foehammer to effect its target like a Thunder Hammer in the shooting phase they would have listed it as such...I am sorry that a Mini-Railgun is not enough for you, but I can't see how the wording of the rules can be misconstrued here....guess I am to logical.

No, the special rule "Special Issue Ammunition" does not list the ammo types, it says "replaces with the one shown here" but none of the weapons listed there have the "Special Issue Ammunition" rule listed under their type. therefore none of those weapons are actually special issue ammo, because that special rule cannot apply to them unless you agree to A in my previous post.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arschbombe wrote:
False choice. The special ammunition rule replaces the bolter profile with 3 other profiles. The named "ammunition" types are in terms of rules 3 completely different weapons. The regular bolter profile remains an option if the sternguard choose not to use any of the special ammunition. Arjac's foe hammer has two profiles; one for close combat and one for shooting. The two profiles have nothing to do with each other.

But you cannot select the 3 other profiles unless you agree that special rules can apply to shooting profiles without having the special rule listed in the weapons profile.

Demogerg wrote:Thunder hammer is a special close combat weapon that has special rules that apply to it, normally this is only used in close combat, the Foehammer is an exception to the normal rules and it is a thunder hammer used as a shooting attack, you still follow the special rules associated with it. In this case, a model that suffers a wound from a thunder hammer has its I reduced to 1 untill the end of the next players assault phase.

No the burden of proof is with you to prove that an effect that happens in the Assault phase happens during the shooting phase. It has a weapons profile that's all you use. If the weapon behaves differently then it must have an additional characteristic add to the end of the profile. That is how shooting works.

Tri wrote:

Demogerg wrote:Thunder hammer is a special close combat weapon that has special rules that apply to it, normally this is only used in close combat, the Foehammer is an exception to the normal rules and it is a thunder hammer used as a shooting attack, you still follow the special rules associated with it. In this case, a model that suffers a wound from a thunder hammer has its I reduced to 1 untill the end of the next players assault phase.

No the burden of proof is with you to prove that an effect that happens in the Assault phase happens during the shooting phase. It has a weapons profile that's all you use. If the weapon behaves differently then it must have an additional characteristic add to the end of the profile. That is how shooting works.

The proof is in the precedent.

some weapons have special rules that apply to them that are NOT listed in the weapon type, but are prefaced before the weapon profile. This is one of those cases. If you refute this case then you also refute that Sternguard cannot fire anything but their normal Bolter rounds.

Demogerg wrote:
No, the special rule "Special Issue Ammunition" does not list the ammo types, it says "replaces with the one shown here" but none of the weapons listed there have the "Special Issue Ammunition" rule listed under their type. therefore none of those weapons are actually special issue ammo, because that special rule cannot apply to them unless you agree to A in my previous post.

And your statement would be valid if the Special Issue Ammo rule wasn't a special rule for the unit. The unit uses its special rule, the weapon profile changes, and the model fires using the new profile. Where does the need for Special Issue Ammo on the profile come in?

Demogerg wrote:
The proof is in the precedent.

some weapons have special rules that apply to them that are NOT listed in the weapon type, but are prefaced before the weapon profile. This is one of those cases. If you refute this case then you also refute that Sternguard cannot fire anything but their normal Bolter rounds.

No you have a special rule that lists you may take the following Rounds and use them. Then lists the rounds and there profiles. Each profile telling you exactly how its used. Where as Foehammer tells you its a thunder hammer that can be thrown with the following profile. The profile tells you exactly how its used.

Going back you told what you are need to use the Foehammer, it is a thunder hammer (you can now use it in close combat) and it can be thrown (you can use this profile for a ranged attack)

You are missing the point….I am assuming intentionally…..even the special ammunition types list their special or additional abilities on their stat line. Every weapon that has a unique, special, or different ability lists it in the stat line.

Foehammer does not say Thunderhammer in the stat line. There are other unique weapons out there like Dante’s pistol, but they mention their special abilities in the weapon stat line.

I guess we shall see who is right when the FAQ comes out.

I know that the Rogue Trader events and tournaments out here have issued a FAQ that says what I stated....if it is not in the stat line you don't get it, hence Foe Hammer in the shooting phase does not count as a Thunder Hammer.

Demogerg wrote:
But you cannot select the 3 other profiles unless you agree that special rules can apply to shooting profiles without having the special rule listed in the weapons profile.

Uh, no. The sternguard have the special ammunition rule. They also have bolters. The bolter profile is irrelevant to the special ammunition rule. Fluff-wise, the sternguard are using their bolters to fire their magic bullets. But in game terms when they choose to fire their magic bullets, the bolter goes unused because they use the special ammunition profile instead of the bolter profile. It's just like chosing to fire your bolt pistol instead of your bolter so you can assault. The net effect of the special ammunition rule is similar to that of the missile launcher that can fire two kinds of ammunition. The mechanic is different because to list the ammunition types with the bolter entry would give every unit in the codex access to those special profiles.

Sternguard have a special rule, yes, but that special rule applies to the unit and the weapons they are firing, none of the weapon profiles listed on page 63 include the "special issue ammunition" rule, or anything to that effect, and thus cannot be associated with said special rule unless you agree that special rules can apply, and not be listed in thier shooting attack profile.

Gurilla wrote:I guess we shall see who is right when the FAQ comes out.

Oh to be young and innocent again

wyomingfox wrote:

Gurilla wrote:I guess we shall see who is right when the FAQ comes out.

Oh to be young and innocent again

LOL! Young I am not....not by a long shot....but I am hopeful that things will get rectified! So what if that hope is misplaced...LOL!

Demogerg wrote:rule applies to the unit and the weapons they are firing,

It replaces the weapons they are firing, actually.

kirsanth wrote:

Demogerg wrote:rule applies to the unit and the weapons they are firing,

It replaces the weapons they are firing, actually.

Irrelevant, the special rule has an effect on the weapon. This special rule is not listed as part of the weapon in its profile, and the special rule does not specifically mention which ammunition types it applies to. Unless you want to agree that a special rule can be applied to a weapon even if it is not in the weapon profile, then Sternguard only have Boltguns, and no special ammunition.

This debate is just space wolf players digging around for an easy button. The sternguard point is dumb, as they have a special rule with negates that.

Nowhere in the foehammers ranged profile does it mention thunderhammer. So it is a thunderhammer in close combat, and a railgun with a short range at range.

Every single other ranged weapon in the game states any special rules in the profile.

Here is another example. Yriel has a singing spear that ignores armor saves. So if he throws it, he can ignore the armor save of whatever he chucks it at. It does not say it is a singing spear that ignores armor saves with the profile of xxxx.

So this has degenerated into NO U and im right youre wrong as far as people wanting the TH rules to apply with shooting.

Eidolon wrote:Every single ranged weapon in the game states any special rules in the profile.

Fixed.

Demogerg wrote:Sternguard have a special rule, yes, but that special rule applies to the unit and the weapons they are firing, none of the weapon profiles listed on page 63 include the "special issue ammunition" rule, or anything to that effect, and thus cannot be associated with said special rule unless you agree that special rules can apply, and not be listed in thier shooting attack profile.

Again, no. You're hung up on the fluff. This is a discussion about rules. You want the rules to reflect fluff. Unfortunately they don't much of the time. Look at the unit entry in the codex:

(copied from GW site)
Unit Composition: 1 Space Marine Sergeant; 4-9 Veterans
Unit Type: Infantry
War Gear: Power armour; Boltgun; Bolt pistol; Special issue ammunition; Frag and krak grenades
Transport: May select a Drop Pod, Rhino or a Razorback.

Special Issue Ammunition is wargear. It is not a special rule that modfies the bolter profile. It is a special that allows for 3 kinds of shooting attacks instead of the bolter profile. What you want it seems to be:

Unit Composition: 1 Space Marine Sergeant; 4-9 Veterans
Unit Type: Infantry
War Gear: Power armour; Boltgun*; Bolt pistol; Frag and krak grenades
Transport: May select a Drop Pod, Rhino or a Razorback.
*may fire special ammunition. see page #...

But as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, them's not the rules.

To paraphrase a line from a famous film: "luke, let go of the fluff, use the rules.".

kirsanth wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Every single ranged weapon in the game states any special rules in the profile.

Fixed.

Oh yeah, thats what i meant to say. Took me a second to realize I mistyped it. I should have spelled it out better.

Every single other ranged weapon in the game states any special rules in the profile. What makes ballsack cockfist and faphammer the exception?

Demogerk if you don't understand that +1 on the AP table equates to the same as AP1 I think that explains a lot in regards to the fallacies you present here.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Demogerk if you don't understand that +1 on the AP table equates to the same as AP1 I think that explains a lot in regards to the fallacies you present here.

G

They do the same thing, they are not the same rule, I think you have failed to perceive what I wrote.

Do not insult me over semantics.