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So it's also doubling the users strength? I don't see that in the profile....

sourclams wrote:

Tri wrote:
Take a Plasma Pistol. Its Str 7 AP2 ... being a pistol it can be used as a close combat weapon but it does not ignore armour saves; even though it would make sence to still have an AP of 2 which would still cut through armour

This is covered explicitly in the rulebook, "in close combat, pistols count as normal close combat weapons and so the Strength and AP of the pistol are ignored." If the phases don't interact, then why the need for this specific rule? (I know what the need is, to prevent this exact thing from having to be FAQed for the zillionth time, but this is YMDC RAW after all).

We can claim that the rules for different phases don't interact with one another, but we can just as easily say that this is exactly what the wording of Foehammer is allowing Arjac to do.

Right but in this case your told that it can be used at range with the following profile .... so we use the profile at range ... which doesn't have any thing to do with thunder hammers.

Shooting = 6" Str10 AP1 Assault 1
Assault = Thunder hammer

It is not both at the same time. Next it'll be people saying it's AP 1 against vehicles in CC.

If it counts as a thunderhammer then you have to throw it at initiative one, after all other models have shot. All armies shooting must be done unit by unit, on initiative basis.

As pointed out it does not count as AP1 in close combat such as Lysander's thunder hammer, so no it does not lower initiative to 1 when used as a shooting attack.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:As pointed out it does not count as AP1 in close combat such as Lysander's thunder hammer, so no it does not lower initiative to 1 when used as a shooting attack.

G

Lysanders thunderhammer does not count as AP1, it just ignores all armor saves and adds +1 to the damage roll on the chart, which although mechanically is the exact same thing, it is not actually AP1.

in close combat you cannot have an AP value, at range you cannot have an Init value, if they dont apply then they dont apply and that arguement ends there.

However, the Foehammer is a thunderhammer, and as previously stated it never stops being a thunderhammer, and the special rules for thunderhammers means that if you suffer an unsaved wound from a thunderhammer you are then at I1.

lets run an example to see how this actually affects the game, lets say my Rockfist and Njal and standing a couple inches away from your key HQ model (tactial mistake on your part, you would avoid this situation at all costs) Arjac throws! 83.3% chance to hit, roll to wound! 69.4% chance to also wound! lets say 5+ invul save now its only a 46.2% chance to deal the wound. Assuming a S10 wound doesnt outright kill your character, Njal casts Jaws! 42.43% chance to get to this point, and a total chance of 35.36% to kill your character outright.

I fail to see how this is considered overpowered, anyone who has played more than a couple of games with Runepriests knows that Jaws is only very situationally useful. to utilize this combo you need a arjac within assault range of the target, the target cannot be in a unit, (because you allocate the wound, not me) I have to roll to hit, roll to wound, then you get any invul saves, then I take a psychic test, then you have to fail an Init test.



So, lets look at what characters people would be running solo, to see what targets could be taken advantage of...
Ghazgkull, I know plenty of people run him solo, because he is faster that way, if someone throws a hammer at him, Call a Waaagh and get a 2+ invul save, now you are unlikely to take a wound, and likely to pass your I test.
Calgar, has a 4+ invul save, which brings the total chance down to 26.5% So the Space Wolf player paid at least 288 points for a 27% chance to nuke your Clagar... good job!
Chaos demons? aside from being monstrous creatures that get a bonus to the I test, they tend to have good invul saves at well,
'Fexes and 'Rants? already at a low I, so are mostly unaffected by this combo.



people are fighting prettey vehemently about this combo, even though by RAW it seems to work, the only counter arguement I have been able to sift out of this is that the rules for Thunderhammers are in the Special Close Combat section of hte rulebook, but where something is in the rulebook has very little to do with its interaction with other rules.

The vehicle damage chart says that when a vehicle is immobilized it is no longer able to move, but that is not in the movement section of the rules, so in the movement phase it obviously CAN move!. this is the same arguement that is being presented, and its total bullcock.


The Foehammer is a Thunderhammer, you follow all applicable rules for thunderhammers, the rules for reducing initiative down to 1 apply to wounds caused by thunderhammers. When you throw a thunderhammer as a ranged attack it does not sudden become a nameless shooting attack, it is still a thunderhammer. we are not advocating an "it doesnt say you cant" stance on this, we are advocating a "it doesnt say that it loses its special rules" stance.

Init values may not work in shooting - that is the point. You want to use TH rules I will make you use all of them - in which case you must find rules allowing Init in shooting, as you MUST strike at Init 1 with a TH - you have NO CHOICE in the matter.

The foehammer is a thunderhammer THAT HAS A RANGED PROFILE. THe shooting rules give no permission for shooting weapons to have effects not contained within their profile - in effect you must show where the rules are stating it is a thunderhammer when thrown.

A thunderhammer is defined as a special CCW, and has no allowance for being used outside of this. There is no explicit allowance in AR rules to use a TH in shooting, so he cannot.

Demogerg wrote:

in close combat you cannot have an AP value, at range you cannot have an Init value, if they dont apply then they dont apply and that arguement ends there.

Actually its stated nowhere that you can't have an AP value in CC or an Initiative value in shooting. Both have rules that could be made to work in the other phases. The only reason they don't is weapons are group into two type Shooting and CC. Any weapon that works in both must have rules for both phases and each phases rules are for that phase only.

This is one of the Reason that we have rending twice in the rule book, Once for the Shooting phase and Once for the Assault phase.

Okay, usually I am the one asking questions, but to me the rules for this are perfectly clear.

1.) First off, some shooting weapons can have the Close Combat Weapons rules (pg. 42 of the BRB). An example is Assault Cannons which have rending. HOWEVER, Rending IS Covered by the BRB, under the heading on pg. 29 - Additional Weapon Characteristics (Rending is listed on pg. 31 of the BRB). Under the heading of Additional Weapon Characteristics, it says that "These extra weapon characteristics are represented by additional rules that are added to a weapon's type."

2.) All of these Additional Weapon Characteristics are covered in the SHOOTING STAT LINE.
a.) Flamer - Covered under range.
b.) Lance - Covered under type.
c.) Rending - Covered under type.

3.) The problem with assuming that Arjac Rockfist gets the Thunder Hammer ability on his shooting attacks is the fact that it is not mentioned in the weapons profile.

"...can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:"

Range: 6", Strength: 10, AP 1, Type: Assault 1

No mention of Thunder Hammer.

4.) The closest weapon I can find to this is the Eldar Laser Lance. On the turn you charge it is a Str 6 power weapon. But in the Shooting Phase it has a completely different set of statistics.

Gurilla wrote:
"...can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:"

Ran*e: 6", Strength: 10, AP 1, Type: Assault 1

No mention of Thunder Hammer.

Except for the part where it says it "Is a Thunderhammer"

As it stands there are 2 interpretations here, RAW, where it IS a Thunderhammer and follows all rules as such, and another where its implied that the ranged profile does not follow the rules for being a Thunderhammer, Which is implied based solely on what section the rules are listed under, and never explicitly stated.

so we have the explicit and the implied, one of which is RAW, the other is an assumed RAI.

Demogerg wrote:Except for the part where it says it "Is a Thunderhammer"

As it stands there are 2 interpretations here, RAW, where it IS a Thunderhammer and follows all rules as such, and another where its implied that the ranged profile does not follow the rules for being a Thunderhammer, Which is implied based solely on what section the rules are listed under, and never explicitly stated.

so we have the explicit and the implied, one of which is RAW, the other is an assumed RAI.

I say you have it exactly backwards. The shooting profile of the weapon is clearly defined. That's the RAW. Appending Thunderhammer to it is someone's notion of RAI.

Arschbombe wrote:
I say you have it exactly backwards. The shooting profile of the weapon is clearly defined. That's the RAW. Appending Thunderhammer to it is someone's notion of RAI.

Agreed. The Weapons shooting profile DOES NOT mention Thunder Hammer. Every other weapon that have additional weapon characteristics mention it in the weapons shooting stat line. Once again, see page 29 of the BRB. Using the weapons shooting stat line as it is written, is the RAW.

Implying that the word Thunder Hammer should be on the shooting stat line is the RAI; because you are assuming that something is suppose to be there. This is because every other weapon for every other race has the additional weapon characteristic mentioned somewhere in the shooting stat line.

Demogerg : Your argument is very well put, and I particularly applaud your summary

The Foehammer is a Thunderhammer, you follow all applicable rules for thunderhammers, the rules for reducing initiative down to 1 apply to wounds caused by thunderhammers. When you throw a thunderhammer as a ranged attack it does not sudden become a nameless shooting attack, it is still a thunderhammer. we are not advocating an "it doesnt say you cant" stance on this, we are advocating a "it doesnt say that it loses its special rules" stance.

Just a shame others can't see the sense of this and insist that the ranged profile somehow overrides the description stating clearly that the Foehammer IS a Thunder Hammer.

Arschbombe wrote:It doesn't say that in the shooting profile it tells you to use.

"is a thunder hammer... with the following profile:"

there is no USR for being a thunder hammer, there are rules however for thunder hammers.

if there was a USR it would be listed, because there is not a USR for being a thunder hammer it is described in the preface as being a thunder hammer. let me give another example...

"all frost blades or frost axes are power weapons that add +1 to the user's Strength"

Frost blades dont ignore armor saves directly, they are power weapons that add strength, but as power weapons they ignore armor saves.

Gurilla wrote:The Weapons shooting profile DOES NOT mention Thunder Hammer.

It doesn't have to, it's defined in the weapon's description !

A Bolt Pistol's shooting profile doesn't repeat that it is a BOLT pistol, does that override the weapon's description which states what type of pistol it is ? Of course not, that would be redundant, so where is the Foehammer's description/profile combination different in that regard ?

Reaper6 wrote:

Gurilla wrote:The Weapons shooting profile DOES NOT mention Thunder Hammer.

It doesn't have to, it's defined in the weapon's description !

A Bolt Pistol's shooting profile doesn't repeat that it is a BOLT pistol, does that override the weapon's description which states what type of pistol it is ? Of course not, that would be redundant, so where is the Foehammer's description/profile combination different in that regard ?

So? It doesn't matter if it is "Bolt" or not. It is a S4 Ap5 12" Pistol. That is it.

Gwar! wrote:So? It doesn't matter if it is "Bolt" or not. It is a S4 Ap5 12" Pistol. That is it.

Then why does your camp (for want of a better phrase) seem to insist that the ranged profile for the Foehammer must repeat what it's description states in order for it to remain a Thunder Hammer ?

Reaper6 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So? It doesn't matter if it is "Bolt" or not. It is a S4 Ap5 12" Pistol. That is it.

Then why does your camp (for want of a better phrase) seem to insist that the ranged profile for the Foehammer must repeat what it's description states in order for it to remain a Thunder Hammer ?

Oh, probably because things like meltaguns have profiles like this:

Meltagun: S8 Ap1 Assault 1, melta.

That clearly tells you to use the melta rule for the gun. Melta bombs, whose name includes melta don't benefit from the melta rule. Arjac could have a magic banana with the S10 Ap1 Assault 1 profile and it would still be the same. The profile defines the rules for the weapon. The name doesn't matter.

Reaper6 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So? It doesn't matter if it is "Bolt" or not. It is a S4 Ap5 12" Pistol. That is it.

Then why does your camp (for want of a better phrase) seem to insist that the ranged profile for the Foehammer must repeat what it's description states in order for it to remain a Thunder Hammer ?

That is actually the strongest point of their arguement, I do not know why you are trying to press this as an arguement in favor of allowing the special rules for Thunder Hammers to apply to the shooting attacking profile listed.

Another example of a special rule for shooting that applies to a unit, but is not listed in the weapon profile is under Sternguard, in the Space Marine Codex, Special Issue Ammunition applies to the Boltguns that Sternguard use, however the weapon profiles listed do not make mention of the Special Issue Ammunition special rule. Under the presumptions that all special rules must have a note made in the "type" section of their profile would mean that Sternguard cannot use Dragonfire Bolts, Hellfire Rounds, Kraken Bolts, or Vengeance Rounds.

Demogerg wrote:the target cannot be in a unit, (because you allocate the wound, not me)

Except that is not how JOTWW works :

C:SW pg 37 wrote:As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24” away. This line may pass through terrain. MC, beasts, calvary, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an initiative test (see Characteristic Tests in BRB). If the model fails the test, it is removed from play. MC may subtract one from their dice roll due to their tremendous size and strength, though remember that the roll of a 6 is always a failure.

It is a shooting attack BUT it has several unique rules that trump the BRB.

the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24” away. This line may pass through terrain.

Do you roll to hit using the RP BS? No. Does this attack target units (like flamers)? No. What does the rule tell you to do? Draw a 24" line across the board. The target is the area on the board over which the line travels across. The attack is therefore indescrimate. Therefore, JOTWW ignores all targeting restrictions such as LOS, friendly models, ect until GW FAQ it.

MC, beasts, calvary, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an initiative test (see Characteristic Tests in BRB). If the model fails the test, it is removed from play.

Are any wounds caused? No. What happens? Models are removed from play. Which models? The ones touched by the line that fail thier INT save. You may not remove models that were not touched by the line. Why? First, you may only allocate wounds and there were no wounds caused. Secondly the rule specifically states only models hit by the line may be removed. May you take an armour, cover, invulnerable save? No, again, you call only take saves on wounds and no wounds were inflicted. Unless GW FAQs it, this is how the power functions.

So JOTWW is a Psychic Shooting Attack:

Does not cause wounds

Does not need LOS

Targets an area of the board rather than units

Removes models touched by the line that fail an INT test...any models friend or foe

Does not cause wounds

Does not allow armour, cover, or invulnerable saves

Nice try Reaper6, but your point is false. Bolt, is not an additional weapon characteristic. Does being bolt make a weapon act different? NO! Melta makes a weapon act different, Lance makes a weapon act different.

Show me one other weapon, in any other codex - that has a shooting profile - THAT DOES NOT mention the additional weapon characteristic in the Shooting Stat Line.

Thunder Hammer is an additional weapon characteristic just like rending - Shooting weapons that have rending mention it in the weapon shooting stat line. I play Tyranids primarily, and all of my weapons that have Living Ammunition, mention it in the Shooting Stat Line.

I fail to see how you can't understand this.....the abilities of a weapon during the shooting phase are always mentioned in its Shooting Stat Line. ALWAYS!!!! . Foehammer does not state it is a Thunderhammer in is Shooting Stat Line because

1.) Thunderhammer is a Close Combat Ability for this type of weapon
2.) They did give it this ability in the shooting phase.

Arschbombe : I never said the name mattered, but the description should ! You could call a Plasma Gun a Hot Cheese Cannon for all I care as long as the description defines it's type.

Reaper6 wrote:Arschbombe : I never said the name mattered, but the description should ! You could call a Plasma Gun a Hot Cheese Cannon for all I care as long as the description defines it's type.

But the description does NOT define it's type. It never has (in 5th anyway ) and never will. It is the Profile that tells you what the weapon does.

Because theyre looking for easter eggs, and ignoring rules that they find inconvenient (double S, MUST strike at init 1)

You hvae a shooting stat line, you use EXACTLY what that stat line gives you. Nothing else.

wyomingfox wrote: Words

I completely understand, however, the Foehammer is a regular shooting attack, and follows all rules for wound allocation.

Gurilla wrote:Nice try Reaper6, but your point is false. Bolt, is not an additional weapon characteristic. Does being bolt make a weapon act different? NO! Melta makes a weapon act different, Lance makes a weapon act different.

Show me one other weapon, in any other codex - that has a shooting profile - THAT DOES NOT mention the additional weapon characteristic in the Shooting Stat Line.

Thunder Hammer is an additional weapon characteristic just like rending - Shooting weapons that have rending mention it in the weapon shooting stat line. I play Tyranids primarily, and all of my weapons that have Living Ammunition, mention it in the Shooting Stat Line.

I fail to see how you can't understand this.....the abilities of a weapon during the shooting phase are always mentioned in its Shooting Stat Line. ALWAYS!!!! . Foehammer does not state it is a Thunderhammer in is Shooting Stat Line because

1.) Thunderhammer is a Close Combat Ability for this type of weapon
2.) They did give it this ability in the shooting phase.

I gave an example that breaks your arguement here, please read above.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because theyre looking for easter eggs, and ignoring rules that they find inconvenient (double S, MUST strike at init 1)

You hvae a shooting stat line, you use EXACTLY what that stat line gives you. Nothing else.

Well, to be fair, the Double Strength part is correct. But that is about it. Nothing else even remotely suggests it uses the TH Close Combat rules in the Shooting Phase.

On an unrelated note, I am glad to see about an equal number of people for each side this time, and that there are SW vets on both sides, rather than "Gwar! vs The People who are jumping on the Spess Puppeh Waggon"

Actually, Sternguard Veteran do have a Shooting Stat Line for all of their special ammunition types:

1.) Dragonfire Bolts - Range: 24", Strength: 4, AP 5, Type: Rapid Fire, Ignores Cover*
2.) Kraken Bolts - Range: 30", Strength: 4, AP 4, Type: Rapid Fire

They still mention their special abilities in the Shooting Stat Line.....show me a Shooting Stat Line that does not mention the weapons special ability in the Stat Line.

Demogerg wrote:

wyomingfox wrote: Words

I completely understand, however, the Foehammer is a regular shooting attack, and follows all rules for wound allocation.

Oh, duhh! Sorry, my bad

It could be listed as a "Lascannon* with the following profile" and you would still have to use the following profile, not the rules for Lascannons*.

(* or Forceweapon see: DH or WH)

Gurilla wrote:Actually, Sternguard Veteran do have a Shooting Stat Line for all of their special ammunition types:

1.) Dragonfire Bolts - Range: 24", Strength: 4, AP 5, Type: Rapid Fire, Ignores Cover*
2.) Kraken Bolts - Range: 30", Strength: 4, AP 4, Type: Rapid Fire

They still mention their special abilities in the Shooting Stat Line.....show me a Shooting Stat Line that does not mention the weapons special ability in the Stat Line.

No, Sternguard have the Special Issue Ammunition rule.

There are profiles listed for weapons on page 63 are not listed explicitly as "Special Issue Ammunition" in their profile, therefore you cannot apply the special rule to them. This means that Sternguard could only fire their bolters as bolters, because none of the supposesed special issue ammo is actually "Special Issue Ammuntion"

or at least thats what your arguement would mean.