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Eidolon wrote:My melta gunner now has a power weapon that rolls 2d6 for armor pen in the assault phase.

Can I have a Wolfguard in TDA with a chainfist and combi-melta who gets Str 8 + 3d6?

Gwar! wrote:It is used as a Thunder Hammer only in the Assault phase. You do not claim that a Gauss Blaster with Warcythe negates all saves do you?

What if the Warscythe had a shooting profile? I would also lean towards 'no' but the comparisons to Warscythes and combi-weapons fall short because they're essentially two weapons which can be used in limited either/or scenarios.

Foehammer, on the other hand, is simply a Thunderhammer that can be shot at people. You're adding wording to the rules by specifying Thunderhammers only specify close combat (although I'd certainly agree it's implied) or that by using its shooting profile Foehammer suddenly becomes not a Thunderhammer.

It is a Gauss Blaster with built in Warscythe. So yeah, it kind of does have a shooting profile.

In any case, nothing says you can use the Assault Phase Special rules in the Shooting phase, so you cannot.

It is a Gauss Blaster (refer to rules for a Gauss blaster) with a built in Warscythe (refer to rules for a Warscythe).

Likewise a combi melta is a bolter (refer to rules for a bolter) with a one-shot meltagun (refer to rules for a meltagun).

Foehammer "is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon".

There is nothing which prevents the ranged weapon from still being a thunder hammer.

nothing says you can use the Assault Phase Special rules in the Shooting phase

Do the Thunderhammer special weapon rules specifically state that they are assault-phase only? That would be the most obvious ixnay prefenting the OP's original scenario. I don't have my book on me so I can't check.

They are in the Assault Phase part of the rules, in the section "Close Combat Weapons".

There is nothing saying you can use them outside of the assault phase, so you cannot.
"It doesn't say I can't" is not an argument.

This strikes me as silly ! It's a Thunder hammer, no matter what you do with it ! The main effect of a thunder hammer comes from the energy released UPON IMPACT, which is unlikely to change no matter how that impact is delivered.

For example, I'm in the garden building a dog-house, using my hammer to hit nails. A neighbour annoys me so I throw my hammer at him. When it hits, it's still a hammer !

It hasn't suddenly become a piece of cheese in mid air, so it's still gonna hit with all the effect of it's original design, which is designed to transfer energy into the target upon impact !

That's entirely too simplistic an argument to say that it refutes the OP's scenario.

Foehammer clearly states that it is a special weapon that is a Thunderhammer and that the Thunderhammer can also be used as a ranged weapon.

Thunderhammer rules being located in the assault phase section is not enough by itself; Foehammer clearly states that it links a ranged weapon profile to the assault phase weapon. "It doesn't say I can" can just as easily be refuted with "Codex > Rulebook".

What's interesting is that the rules say you can, but it's so wildly against precedent that we're inclined (including myself) to believe it can't.

This strikes me as silly ! It's a Thunder hammer, no matter what you do with it !

This is what you have to find reasoning against; what about either Foehammer's special rule would detach the 'is a thunder hammer' clause from the 'can be used as a ranged weapon' clause.

sourclams wrote: "It doesn't say I can" can just as easily be refuted with "Codex > Rulebook".

Codex > Rulebook is not true, and you know it.

It's Specific > General.

In this case, the specific rules for Thunderhammers being used in the Assault phase over-ride the general shooting rules.
Nowhere in the shooting profile does it state it has the Thunderhammers Assault phase effect, so it does not.

And again, that's not a RAW argument.

Unless the Thunderhammer effect states specifically that it only applies in the assault phase, Foehammer's specific rule that links a ranged profile to a thunder hammer supercede the general close combat rules in the main book.

So? Theres a reason it has a profile of S10 Ap1!

It is not a Thunderhammer when used as a ranged weapon - it gives you a specific profile: you use THAT profile only and any special rules attached.

"Thunderhammer" is not listed in tyhe special rules (as it would be stupid to list a CCW there....) so it ISNT a Thunderhammer when shooting.

sourclams wrote:Unless the Thunderhammer effect states specifically that it only applies in the assault phase,

It does, because it is in the Assault Phase part of the rules. It doesn't get more specific than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:So? Theres a reason it has a profile of S10 Ap1!

It is not a Thunderhammer when used as a ranged weapon - it gives you a specific profile: you use THAT profile only and any special rules attached.

"Thunderhammer" is not listed in tyhe special rules (as it would be stupid to list a CCW there....) so it ISNT a Thunderhammer when shooting.

Thank you!

I can picture it now...

..."Yes, your honour, I did throw my hammer at him, but by the time it met his head it had become a fatally hard cheese scone !"

ludicrous, really. An object cannot change it's state or nature in flight (transformers notwithstanding).

Of course, if we were talking about throwing a bolt pistol the situation would be different, but as I pointed out last post, the T-hammer's effect comes from release of energy upon impact, so the delivery mechanism becomes irrelevent as it's going to be about impact whether it's swung or thrown.

Where Thunderhammer is located in the rulebook is irrelevant. Foehammer already states that it is a Thunderhammer and has a ranged profile. What, because Logan Grimnar isn't listed under the Independent Character special rules in the main book suddenly means he's not one?

There's no coherency to your argument.

"Thunderhammer" is not listed in tyhe special rules (as it would be stupid to list a CCW there....) so it ISNT a Thunderhammer when shooting.

Foehammer says it is. Explicitly.

Gwar! wrote:It is used as a Thunder Hammer only in the Assault phase. You do not claim that a Gauss Blaster with Warcythe negates all saves do you?

The gauss blaster isn't shooting people with warscythes, it rather has a warscythe attached as a bayonet of sorts. So this isn't really a good analogy. The foehammer is basically shooting a thunderhammer at an opponent.

I would think that an opponent hit with a foehammer would end up fighting at initiative 1 in the following assault phase just as if they were hit with a thunderhammer in said phase.

Not in the ranged profile it gives it isn't. It is NOT in the special rules FOR THE RANGED WEAPON.

When shooting you use the profile given for the weapon plus any special rules it has.

A Thunderhammer is a CCW only - all its effects apply just ot close combat. Stop hunting, Easter's a few months away.

When used as a ranged weapon, I am inclined to think the profile listed is what is used.
If it was meant to have the special close combat rules invoked as well, I would think that would have been mentioned/listed/made a big deal of.

I can understand the question though.

/shrug

nosferatu1001 is, as ever, correct.

@Reaper6: Stick to rules arguments please.

Gwar! wrote:@Reaper6: Stick to rules arguments please.

I was simply using an example to illustrate my position, the essential core of which is that no matter how the strike is delivered the weapon istelf is still a thunder hammer, which (as I keep repeating) works by delivery of energy upon impact.

The provision of a statline for ranged use is, I assume, because the current BRB lacks rules for throwing weapons (such as calculating maximum range, strength etc) which previous incarnations did include (primarily for throwing grenades in the shooting phase which I sadly miss). Of course, if someone HAS found such rules in the current edition then please inform me as to where.

Reaper - as I said: this is the reason it is not a S4 AP- weapon, it is S10 AP1 - that seems, to me, to PERFECTLY simulate the energy release upon impact. Think about it - why else is it so strong and high AP? If it isn't using the TH effects then it would be base strength of the model and no armour pen - a blunt hammer is not exactly known for its abilities to cut through TDA like butter...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not in the ranged profile it gives it isn't. It is NOT in the special rules FOR THE RANGED WEAPON.

The ranged weapon is a thunder hammer.

Thunderhammers are not AP1

sourclams wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not in the ranged profile it gives it isn't. It is NOT in the special rules FOR THE RANGED WEAPON.

The ranged weapon is a thunder hammer.

No, it is a Ranged weapon with a Profile of 6" S10 Ap1 Assault 1

nosferatu1001 wrote:Reaper - as I said: this is the reason it is not a S4 AP- weapon, it is S10 AP1 - that seems, to me, to PERFECTLY simulate the energy release upon impact. Think about it - why else is it so strong and high AP? If it isn't using the TH effects then it would be base strength of the model and no armour pen - a blunt hammer is not exactly known for its abilities to cut through TDA like butter...

Which only helps confirm that it IS still a T-hammer and should be entitled to all it's listed effects.

@Gwar : I normally refrain from posting in this forum because I usually agree with your opinions, but this time I've had to speak up because I disagree with you. Sorry dude.

Why are people talking about "release of energy?" I kept looking in the rulebook for rules on "release of energy" and could not find any. Is it in Gwar!s faq?

huh?

So you mean it should strike at Initiative 1 as well? Or when you say "all" do you mean "only those which benefit me"?

The thrown TH has a specific profile with no special rules attached - you use that profile only.

Sourclams - I assume you're just trolling now, as you currently don't have a real argument.

It can be thrown with the following profile

R 6 S 10 AP 1 Assault 1

thats it. far as im concerned the fact he throws a railgun represents the thunder hammers effects well.

Reaper6: your physics arguments are poor, as the impact of a device depends on the manner in which it is delivered. Obviously throwing a hammer would have different effects then hitting someone with one. Which is represented by S10 AP1.

willydstyle wrote:Why are people talking about "release of energy?" I kept looking in the rulebook for rules on "release of energy" and could not find any. Is it in Gwar!s faq?

Nothing about release of energy, but V1.5 covers the Ranged attack situation.

DONWLOAD IT PEWAOPLE!

Gwar! wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Why are people talking about "release of energy?" I kept looking in the rulebook for rules on "release of energy" and could not find any. Is it in Gwar!s faq?

Nothing about release of energy, but V1.5 covers the Ranged attack situation.

DONWLOAD IT PEWAOPLE!

I guess my lack of smilies shut down your sarcasm detector

nosferatu1001 : If initiative is ever a factor during the shooting phase, then sure I'd apply the Int=1 to the firer, just as I'd apply the effects of being hit with a T-Hammer and it's attendant Int reduction to the target

willydstyle : BRB, page 42; Codex Space Marines, p99; Codex Space Wolves p60 Thunder Hammer description first sentence in all books named (some 2nd ed codices give more detail). Apologies, just noticed Sarcasm Sensorium readings

Ah right, so just because you cant apply the rule you thinkl you should apply all the other benefits?

Sorry, if you want to easter egg hunt then you can have al the negatives. Biggest one being that you need to determine how to apply Initiative in shooting. If you cant do so then perhaps you shouldnt be looking so hard.

Or, you know, you could just use the fact it gives you a RANGED WEAPON PROFILE and just use the RANGED WEAPON PROFILE if gives you?

A TH is strictly CC