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generalgrog wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
As mentioned earlier, about 98% of abortions take place before 24 weeks, and over 80% in the first 12 weeks.

Here ya go....pictures of 23 nd 12 week old babies. Have fun!

http://www.aboutabortions.com/EmbFetal.htm
edit: found some more http://www.babycenter.com/100_fetal-development_5214615.bc

You can't look at those pictures and tell me you really believe abortion is not murder.

GG

Well done, thanks for that (not that I wanted to look, having seen something along these lines years ago). Your point was what? As far as I'm aware the post is about woman's name being gathered on a list that then is open to the public, not a debate on whether you agree with abortion or not? Given that there are members of your religious communities that see it's their "God given" duty to murder people connected with abortions, then this isn't the best idea on the planet is it?!

GG as i said, i think that they should lower the time you are allowed one, but from looking at the pictures, i can safely say that terminating say, an 8-12 week pregnancy is not even remotely like murder. Probably alot longer, though i dont know the biology behind it and i admit that the pictures stir some sort of.. primal feelings of protection over the foetus. But lets be realistic, that little ball cannot feel pain or actually be aware of its existence. Hence, i dont think that you can say it is more important than its walking talking mother.

As i have said, i dont really support abortion, women shouldnt be so fething ignorant and irresponsible.

But take away their rights to choose?

That i would never ever do.

IHow on earth can we (random men) force them (random women) to do what we want because we decide it for them?

How can you not grasp the concept? Im not saying i like abortion, but im saying i cant in good conscience say that we should be able to demand what other people do to their bodies.

@ wolfstan the responce was directed at KK who seemed to feel that abortion at 24 weeks was justified. This thread has been off subject forever, don't think that I took it off the tracks.

@ matty. I agree that abortion under a certain time frame stirs up less emotions since the fetus hasn't developed into a humanoid shape yet. It's at this point that it gets less cut and dried. IMO

GG

generalgrog wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
As mentioned earlier, about 98% of abortions take place before 24 weeks, and over 80% in the first 12 weeks.

Here ya go....pictures of 23 nd 12 week old babies. Have fun!

http://www.aboutabortions.com/EmbFetal.htm
edit: found some more http://www.babycenter.com/100_fetal-development_5214615.bc

You can't look at those pictures and tell me you really believe abortion is not murder.



GG

I did three years medical school so I've seen and touched some pretty nasty stuff.

An appeal to emotion shouldn't be dismissed, but you have to look at all sides of the issue not just one.

the irony of this is that the people who would welcome this are the same ones carring placards with 'obama is a nazi, cos nazi germany had a national health care system'.

whatever happened to the freedom that the US was founded on and still fight for. its not freedom for all where your beliefs (usually religious) are worth more than anothers, maybe pro-lifers should allow better teaching of sex ed so that the need for abortion becomes lower.

Hence the beauty of abstinence only education. No sex, no babies. Nothing could possibly go wrong with that.

Bookwrack wrote:Hence the beauty of abstinence only education. No sex, no babies. Nothing could possibly go wrong with that.

I maybe doing the math wrong here, but that comment seems to insinuate that the women having abortions are all under age? If that's the case, perhaps the education authorities should accept that we are bascially animals, and that we are driven by our hormones, especially in the teens. With this in mind they can perhaps stop running scared from "sex" and impliment proper sex education.

According to information presented here

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

20% of US abortions are for teenage girls.

I guess I don't see sex education as helping to lessen teen pregnancy. I had a very good and thorough sex education in grades 6-12 and there were still 2 girls pregnant at the HS graduation.

The problem I see is that you cannot educate those that don't want to learn or don't care. Every teen out there knows that having sex unprotected can and most likely will lead to them getting pregnant. For God's sake their are enough teen drama shows on T.V where that thing is common.

My neighbors adopted daughter turns 18 in the spring and she has 2 kids already, one is 3; the other is about 8 months. I'm pretty sure that she knew when she had unsafe sex with them (yes, 2 different fathers) that it would probably get her pregnant.

The biggest problem, and it's joked on here quite a bit, is that sex is pushed more and more every year on people. On here and on Warseer, on tv and in movies sex is presented as something everyone should do; not out of purely trying to keep a families generation going but to just mindless procreate and enjoy ones self.

Sure it's not pushed that unsafe sex is cool, just the opposite but it's the fact that sex in general is prevalent, and in a lot of ways praised as something grander thatn it is, contributes a lot to the problem of teens and young adults having kids they don't want or can't afford to raise.

Maybe if sex was seen less as entertainment and a form or recreational activity and more a necessary evil to keep the species going (less skimpy teen and preteen clothes, less sex and talk of sex on teen shows and movies) it might draw away some of the appeal.

Watch some of the teen dramas on TV like Hannah Montana or iCarly or other shows aimed at 12-14yo girls. They talk more openly about adult matters than we discussed in sex education in HS.

Fateweaver wrote:Watch some of the teen dramas on TV like Hannah Montana or iCarly or other shows aimed at 12-14yo girls. They talk more openly about adult matters than we discussed in sex education in HS.

I remember that very special episode in which Carly's friend buys an off brand Astroglide and gets a rash. We were all moved.

Fateweaver wrote:I guess I don't see sex education as helping to lessen teen pregnancy. I had a very good and thorough sex education in grades 6-12 and there were still 2 girls pregnant at the HS graduation.
...
...

Results of sex education in the Netherlands show clearly that the start of teenage sexual activity is made later and the pregnancy rate is reduced.

Fateweaver wrote:I guess I don't see sex education as helping to lessen teen pregnancy. I had a very good and thorough sex education in grades 6-12 and there were still 2 girls pregnant at the HS graduation.

I assume you are being slightly facetious. 'Not helping at all', is completely different from achieving it's main goals effectively. If that number were dozens of young women, you might have a problem. The school I went to, had close to 3,000 students, and there was a total of maybe five pregnancies a year. I would not be surprised if it were much lower than that.

The problem I see is that you cannot educate those that don't want to learn or don't care. Every teen out there knows that having sex unprotected can and most likely will lead to them getting pregnant. For God's sake their are enough teen drama shows on T.V where that thing is common.

My neighbors adopted daughter turns 18 in the spring and she has 2 kids already, one is 3; the other is about 8 months. I'm pretty sure that she knew when she had unsafe sex with them (yes, 2 different fathers) that it would probably get her pregnant.

Amongst the many, many other young adults, those few that choose to be stupid or are dragged down into bad situations; well, I suppose they are not the ones that get the information they need. I also know plenty of young mothers, who besides being stressed, manage to be mothers quite well. It is not exactly a death sentence, but 2 kids is an awful lot to deal with.

Maybe if sex was seen less as entertainment and a form or recreational activity and more a necessary evil to keep the species going (less skimpy teen and preteen clothes, less sex and talk of sex on teen shows and movies) it might draw away some of the appeal.

What happened to doing what you love to do? I can understand how many people see a real problem with young women expressing their sexuality. For me, it honestly just makes me uncomfortable seeing all that nonsense. There is a commodity in sex, and the way it is tossed around through the media is a bit disappointing, but it is not like I would let any daughter of mine take part in that gak-pit. That is the extent of what can, and should be done really. If any of that stuff makes you sick, and you have children, it is well within your 'power' to guide your children as you see fit.

Watch some of the teen dramas...

Going to straight up stop you there, and just say no. JUST SAY NO TO HANNAH MONTANA KIDS!!!

Ahtman wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Watch some of the teen dramas on TV like Hannah Montana or iCarly or other shows aimed at 12-14yo girls. They talk more openly about adult matters than we discussed in sex education in HS.

I remember that very special episode in which Carly's friend buys an off brand Astroglide and gets a rash. We were all moved.

Well Ahtman, love the snarky comment but I've seen enough iCarly and Hannah Montana to know that for being a show aimed at 12-14yo girls they could cut back on the innuendos. It might not have had any impact on you but you don't seem to me to be a teen anything, especially not a teen girl. If you are I apologize; if not I don't as anyone with 1/2 a brain knows media is a big influence on kids.

If you don't think teens are learning all the wrong things about sex........well, see the paragraph immediately above this one, especially the last sentence.

Fateweaver wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Watch some of the teen dramas on TV like Hannah Montana or iCarly or other shows aimed at 12-14yo girls. They talk more openly about adult matters than we discussed in sex education in HS.

I remember that very special episode in which Carly's friend buys an off brand Astroglide and gets a rash. We were all moved.

Well Ahtman, love the snarky comment but I've seen enough iCarly and Hannah Montana to know that for being a show aimed at 12-14yo girls they could cut back on the innuendos. It might not have had any impact on you but you don't seem to me to be a teen anything, especially not a teen girl. If you are I apologize; if not I don't as anyone with 1/2 a brain knows media is a big influence on kids.

If you don't think teens are learning all the wrong things about sex........well, see the paragraph immediately above this one, especially the last sentence.

I've never watched the show, or anything on Disney Channel (do I give the impression of being a 13 year old girl?) and I still have no doubt that they are sending the wrong messages on just about everything. Really I just wanted to work 'astroglide' into a thread.

I'm not saying sex is bad but it also doesn't need to be flaunted as blatantly as it is. Parents can make a choice to not let their 12yo daughter where skirts short enough to make a porn star blush but perhaps tops, bras and panties designed to look like something Tera Patrick would wear on set should not even be legal to make for a 14yo girl.

Most of teen pregnancy and young adult pregnancy is due to lack of parenting. I was raised during a time when parenting came 1st, job 2nd and going out and partying came 3rd and I was a good kid, good in the sense I never spent even a single day in Juvenile and only got detention once in school. Now though it's job 1st, kids second (or perhaps 3rd even).

You gotta ask yourself where the parents are when you see a 14yo girl dressed as a streetwalker walking the mall alone and with no adult guardian in site chatting away or texting away on her cellphone. If parents aren't present to see their little girl dressed as a whore they sure as hell aren't going to help to reinforce the education of sex and all it's responsibilities.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I guess I don't see sex education as helping to lessen teen pregnancy. I had a very good and thorough sex education in grades 6-12 and there were still 2 girls pregnant at the HS graduation.
...
...

Results of sex education in the Netherlands show clearly that the start of teenage sexual activity is made later and the pregnancy rate is reduced.

Not just sex education just education in general. There are statistics from India and the subcontinent that show that where there is a higher level of education for women the rate of pregnancy reduces. Going from no choice to more choices.

There is probably more complacency in the west and 1st world we have many more options available to us.

Slightly more OT I wonder whether this subject is being overly politicised? I mean Is it just a list of what drove the women into abortions and I know reading the linked article some of the questioning is limited and 'biased'? Can individuals really be tracked with the data given and an women opt out of giving the info?
Is this truly going to be public domain stuff or is it for a medical statistical study with limited data available to the public?

Seems that this subject is being publicised to pursue many different agendas.

Perhaps then the sex education should be more geared towards giving kids the tools to deal with not going down that road? Or if they feel that they can get contraception without being lynched, then that would help.

Fateweaver wrote:I'm not saying sex is bad but it also doesn't need to be flaunted as blatantly as it is. Parents can make a choice to not let their 12yo daughter where skirts short enough to make a porn star blush but perhaps tops, bras and panties designed to look like something Tera Patrick would wear on set should not even be legal to make for a 14yo girl.

Most of teen pregnancy and young adult pregnancy is due to lack of parenting. I was raised during a time when parenting came 1st, job 2nd and going out and partying came 3rd and I was a good kid, good in the sense I never spent even a single day in Juvenile and only got detention once in school. Now though it's job 1st, kids second (or perhaps 3rd even).

You gotta ask yourself where the parents are when you see a 14yo girl dressed as a streetwalker walking the mall alone and with no adult guardian in site chatting away or texting away on her cellphone. If parents aren't present to see their little girl dressed as a whore they sure as hell aren't going to help to reinforce the education of sex and all it's responsibilities.

@Fateweaver: Are..are you something like 80 years old? I mean...that whole post was basically a "Kid's these days..." rant.


Some teens rebel against even the most well mannered family. The whole thing about bad parenting raises some interesting questions concerning Nature vs Nurture.

I'm 34 and I'm pointing out that allowing young girls to dress like porn stars is not healthy and is not necessary.

Yes, I do consider it bad parenting when 14yo Amber can dress like Jenna Jameson and the parents don't care or are present when she picks the clothes off the shelves (and yes those clothes do exist outside of Victorias Secret).

Kids should not be overprotected but young girls should not be allowed to dress in a manner that most college girls would find too disgusting or revealing.

Lots of schools are cutting sex education out as a way to save money and as a lesson to parents that kids should learn SOME values at home. If kids don't get that from school and the parents don't sit down and have that "talk" with them they will learn it from tv, movies and friends and with the exception of the tv shows most teens won't watch because they are aimed at adults, teen dramas like "The OC" or just about anything on MTV and even some Disney Channel shows are not doing anything to show the bad sides of sex, unsafe at that.

So yeah it's a rant but it's one based on experience and education and research. Any parent not seeing a problem with a 12 or 14yo girl dressing in clothing skimpy enough to make a street walker blush is not a good parent. End of.

Teen pregnancy has been steadily declining since 1990. There was a spike in 2006, but we won't know if that was an anomaly, or if it marks the start of a new trend until more data is available. This seems to indicate that, if the amount of sexual discussion in the media has increased since 1990, that it is not the primary force behind teen pregnancy.

Mr. Burning wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:[
Results of sex education in the Netherlands show clearly that the start of teenage sexual activity is made later and the pregnancy rate is reduced.

Not just sex education just education in general. There are statistics from India and the subcontinent that show that where there is a higher level of education for women the rate of pregnancy reduces. Going from no choice to more choices

´Tis true. I´m from the Netherlands, and teen and other unwanted pregnancies here are so rare it´s basically a non-issue. At least to the best of my knowledge, this is true even among the lower educated people in the country. Of course, education has to be coupled with readily availabe contraceptive methods.

Mr. Burning wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I guess I don't see sex education as helping to lessen teen pregnancy. I had a very good and thorough sex education in grades 6-12 and there were still 2 girls pregnant at the HS graduation.
...
...

Results of sex education in the Netherlands show clearly that the start of teenage sexual activity is made later and the pregnancy rate is reduced.

Not just sex education just education in general. There are statistics from India and the subcontinent that show that where there is a higher level of education for women the rate of pregnancy reduces. Going from no choice to more choices.

There is probably more complacency in the west and 1st world we have many more options available to us.

Slightly more OT I wonder whether this subject is being overly politicised? I mean Is it just a list of what drove the women into abortions and I know reading the linked article some of the questioning is limited and 'biased'? Can individuals really be tracked with the data given and an women opt out of giving the info?
Is this truly going to be public domain stuff or is it for a medical statistical study with limited data available to the public?

Seems that this subject is being publicised to pursue many different agendas.

The issue is highly politicised in the USA, much less so in western Europe, Japan, India and China.

It's funny. Sex Ed is one of those hot topic issues.

Hell, the sex ed we had at my HS was nonexistent. The only real, truly good advice we got?

Don't put it in her pooper, unless she's expecting it.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Thats not accurate in the US. The state has compelling interest in protecting the life of the fetus at viability. Thats been old English Common Law and current US judge made law (via SCOTUS). The tricky part is defining viability. With increasing technology that gets shifted further and further back.

The records of care of premature babies show that the absolute limit of viability stands at about 21 weeks. Premature babies born at that age need extensive, prolonged medical intervention and frequently suffer ill effects in later life. It has taken about 40 years of medical advance to get from 24 weeks down to 21. Younger babies simply are not viable, without some kind of artificial womb being invented.

As mentioned earlier, about 98% of abortions take place before 24 weeks, and over 80% in the first 12 weeks.

That will change over time and technology. Artificial wombs are a when, not an if. Then the situation gets dicey indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:I'm 34 and I'm pointing out that allowing young girls to dress like porn stars is not healthy and is not necessary.

Yes, I do consider it bad parenting when 14yo Amber can dress like Jenna Jameson and the parents don't care or are present when she picks the clothes off the shelves (and yes those clothes do exist outside of Victorias Secret).

Kids should not be overprotected but young girls should not be allowed to dress in a manner that most college girls would find too disgusting or revealing.

Lots of schools are cutting sex education out as a way to save money and as a lesson to parents that kids should learn SOME values at home. If kids don't get that from school and the parents don't sit down and have that "talk" with them they will learn it from tv, movies and friends and with the exception of the tv shows most teens won't watch because they are aimed at adults, teen dramas like "The OC" or just about anything on MTV and even some Disney Channel shows are not doing anything to show the bad sides of sex, unsafe at that.

So yeah it's a rant but it's one based on experience and education and research. Any parent not seeing a problem with a 12 or 14yo girl dressing in clothing skimpy enough to make a street walker blush is not a good parent. End of.

This is true and its not just 14 year olds. Go into the 10-12 year old clothing and swimsuit sections. As a parent you will be shocked.

Well, artificial vaginas exist so why not artificial wombs.

Also, don't get me wrong. I don't blame solely the media on teen pregnancy. I think as a show producer you should have the right to air anything you want so long as it's not a snuff film or shows/movies glorifying hate crimes (still hate the word hate crime as that's just another stupid reason for courts to imprison people).

It just doesn't help as a society that teen girls and young adult girls are more or less told everyday by peers and teen shows/movies and friends that sex is okay and sex is normal and that if you are still a virgin when you graduate HS that there is something wrong with you. Also a lot of teens and young mothers being lured into thinking that babies are cute and that it's normal to have babies. Sad truth is for every 10 who know that the baby will soon be a teen and then an adult there are probably 2 or 3 that realize 2 months in that they made a mistake and can't handle responsibility and realize that the little bundle of joy will become a terrible 2, a frightening 5 and then an donkey-cave/bitchy teen and mom and dad sign the consent form and 13yo suzy has an abortion or she tries to do it herself and it ends up killing her.

For all the ads on tv dealing with birth control there are 10x's as many shows glorifying sex. Even if the show preaches safe sex it's the fact that sex is mentioned 10x more often than abstinence says something about society as a whole.

It just doesn't help as a society that teen girls and young adult girls are more or less told everyday by peers and teen shows/movies and friends that sex is okay and sex is normal and that if you are still a virgin when you graduate HS that there is something wrong with you.

Actually thats more of an instinctual thing. Average age of child rearing was much younger in earlier societies in history. Not that that has particular relevance on the issue.

For all the ads on tv dealing with birth control there are 10x's as many shows glorifying sex. Even if the show preaches safe sex it's the fact that sex is mentioned 10x more often than abstinence says something about society as a whole.

Thats a pretty fake number you just threw out.

Fateweaver wrote:
For all the ads on tv dealing with birth control there are 10x's as many shows glorifying sex. Even if the show preaches safe sex it's the fact that sex is mentioned 10x more often than abstinence says something about society as a whole.

Disregarding the arbitrary nature of your 'statistic', teen pregnancy was at a 30-year low in 2005. In 2006 it increased by 4% (which correlates nicely with the surge in abstinence-only sex education), and I don't think data is currently available for later years. The notion that the presence of greater degrees of sex in popular culture draws girls into pregnancy is absolutely ridiculous, and doesn't really square with way sex is discussed in the rest of the developed world vis a vis their, far lower, teen pregnancy rates.

Kids aren't as stupid as many people make them out to be. They know that the media is based on dramatization, and are far more likely to listen to people that are supposed to be providing legitimate information if they're going to listen to anyone.

Whatever. Again, sex is glorified more than it needs to be. As Frazz and I pointed out take a look next time you walk past the 10-12 year old section of swimsuits or lingerie at the store (don't gawk as that might be weird). Girls that young don't need clothes like that and it only leads to the wrong message being conveyed.

Not sure how we got so far off track but I guess teen pregnancy correlates with abortion discussion.

Whatever. Again, sex is glorified more than it needs to be. As Frazz and I pointed out take a look next time you walk past the 10-12 year old section of swimsuits or lingerie at the store (don't gawk as that might be weird). Girls that young don't need clothes like that and it only leads to the wrong message being conveyed.

So is violence. How do you determine how much something needs to be glorified?

I didn't mention violence because it's not relevant to abortion (well maybe in the case of rape).

There is far more sex on tv than their is violence. Movies it seems the exact opposite (I see less sex scenes in most non-XXX films than scenes of violence).

I guess I don't get what you are trying to say Shuma. It appears to me you don't think clothes designed to fit a 12yo girl but reveal as much as clothes a 24yo stripper/hooker wears is that big of a problem. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems as if you are saying that since violence is glorified that it should be okay for girls to wear clothes that are not befitting of age?

I'm not against discussion of sex or sexual subject matter in shows designed around that or aimed at adults. It's too much when shows like Hannah Montana or iCarly or other teen shows elude to it or downright talk about it.

Teens should not get sex education lessons from the Disney Channel, they should get it from home and/or at school.