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Kanluwen wrote:To anyone who is of the belief that the healthcare reform will be "the death of America!":

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.
You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.
You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.
You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.
You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.
You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.
You didn't get mad when you saw the Abu Grahib photos.
You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.
You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.
You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.
You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.
You didn't get mad when we let a major US city drown.
You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.
You finally got mad when.. when... wait for it... when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, and stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer are all ok with you but helping other Americans... well feth that. That about right?

No, not in many cases. The libertarians have been pretty stringently opposed the the wars, the Patriot Act, the deficit, and many of the other things you mentioned. The Tea Partiers are probably the biggest critics of the deficit active right now, and they are pretty hostile to the concept of government bailouts as well.

And more importantly, people didn't get mad when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. The mandate for hospitals to treat people who are unable to pay is pretty much taken for granted. So then the question now becomes "why are you angry that the government is actually taking steps to stop their mandate from costing people unfairly?" It's a government takeover (but not really) of something they've already taken over; now they're just trying to fix the blunt dictate with a system that won't distort everything.

If those decrying socialism want to really get the government out of healthcare, they should oppose mandatory treatment; as sebster once said, though, the image of people dying outside of hospitals because they can't afford emergency treatment isn't going to be a popular one.

sebster wrote:

halonachos wrote:This bill will not end well. At first it'll be hunky-dory, but when the average American lifespan doesn't increase then we'll see more people calling the bill useless. The lifespan isn't tied into health care, after all England has health care and they live about 1 more year than Americans on average.

Life expectancy is only one measure used in health metrics, and it isn’t given that heavy a weighting (as lifestyle, diet, work safety and so many other factors play a significant part). Health metrics look at other issues, such as deaths in child birth, instances of malpractice, success rates of basic surgeries – those kinds of things. The US is a poor performer on these measures, a bizarre result considering they spend between 150 and 200% more on healthcare than the rest of us.

Except the fact that it has been debated that most other countries count "child death" as stillbirth while americans count it as infant mortality if the newborn is alive for even a second. So, a misrepresentation due to the different standards of each country aren't really all that reliable.

sebster wrote:

The "health care reform" bill does not reform health care at all, it just gives the "insured" title to the uninsured at a premium.

Umm, it means that once you get that title, you go to hospital and are not billed for your treatment. Which is, you know, how insurance works. Your statement was ridiculous.

Except for the fact that illegals are able to get free medication even though they are uninsured and not having insurance doesn't mean you can't get care. There are free clinics and free ERs available. However, you are still billed even if you do have insurance. This bill can range from a $10 or $20 copay to $100+ for certain procedures. Also, there is no such thing as free medication. My mom usually pays $30-$100 out of pocket for her prescription pills. So that brings up another point, if you can't afford insurance besides the government plan, how do you expect they pay for what the insurance will not cover?

The issue is these doctors will now be fighting the government when an issue of coding is called up and it is far easier to fight a company than it is the government. (After all the companies may hire lawyers, but the government is made up entirely of lawyers.).

You think it’s harder to get money off of government than off of private companies? What?

The government hardly gives away money unless you bend over backwards while jumping over a hoop that is hung above a shark tank filled with sharks that have laser beams attached to their heads.

halonachos wrote:I didn't know we went to Vietnam twice (to prevent the spread of communism), I also didn't know that Republicans are the sole reason the entire world hated us (Perry, Big Stick diplomacy, Clinton in bed with the Saudis, the whole basic concept of America; we've been hated for awhile dude.), I also didn't know that Republicans somehow supported the formation of terror groups (if this is the case then I guess they did create jobs).

The US consistantly polls among the most popular countries in the world, almost always the most popular. The idea that everyone hates you is pretty much a myth - there are certainly vocal elements that don't like what you do (some with reason, some without) but this is greatly overplayed some in the US, typically to justify doing something obnoxious.

Also, I'm sure Clinton had a hand with the housing and credit bubble.

Everyone had a hand in that. That particular piece of free market stupidity is multi-generational and international.

These were responses to shuma, sebster. Shuma was blaming the republicans for all of americas' woes and I responded to that by showing them that it wasn't true. So you basically attacked my position by using my same position.


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Kanluwen wrote:To anyone who is of the belief that the healthcare reform will be "the death of America!":

I didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.
I did get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.
I did get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.
I did get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
I didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us. (except that the taliban were in charge of afghanistan and Iraq was most likely aiding them)
I didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.
I did get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.
I didn't get mad when you saw the Abu Grahib photos.
I didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.
I did get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.
I did get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.
I did get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.
I did get mad when we let a major US city drown.
I did get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.
I did get mad when the government passed the healthcare bill in a secretive little chamber.
I did get mad when Obama broke all of his promises.
I did get mad when earmarks were placed into the bill.

Kanluwen, you can't wholesale describe a nonexistent person.

No one can clearly state what the ramifications of this Bill will be. Health care in the US is a mess and needs cleaned up. I don't know if this Bill will accomplish that or not.

Since companies can't deny individuals for pre-existing conditions, that should, in theory, drive up the cost.

However, since everyone will not be required to carry insurance, it will force a lot of 20-somethings to acquire it. There's a sizable block of young adults who don't bother with health insurance, just take the gamble that they won't become very ill at a young age. If they are hospitalized due to an accident, it's quite likely that someone else's insurance is pay for it (their auto, the other guy's auto, or even someone else's general liability if it's a company at fault). So, that would drive down the average cost.

Maybe those two balance, maybe they don't.

I'm not a big fan of government mandates. But, the health care system needs overhauled, and if this is the best way to do it, I'm fine with it.

And if Rush Limbaugh moves out of the US, this Bill was totally worth it! I say we ship him to France!

"The US consistantly polls among the most popular countries in the world, almost always the most popular."

It did up until the Bush administration, when our image abroad took a real hit:

http://www.stimson.org/pub.cfm?ID=639

"The invasion of Iraq in 2003 began an inexorable erosion of America’s international reputation. Over the past five years, numerous international polls have charted the turn of America’s reputation from positive to negative. A 2006 Harris Interactive survey found that a significant percentage of the British, French, German, Italian, and Spanish interviewees considered the United States as the greatest threat to global stability.[3] Similarly, a Pew report concluded that, as of 2006, supporters of the US-led war on terrorism had decreased to a minority in Great Britain (49%), France (43%), Germany (47%), and Japan (26%).[4] More startlingly, support in Spain had decreased from 63% in 2003 to 19% at the time of the survey. Further, a BBC survey in 2007 of 28,000 people in 27 countries found that the U.S.—along with Israel, Iraq, and North Korea—had a negative influence in the world.[5] In early 2008, these trends finally began stabilizing somewhat. A BBC World Service poll found that positive attitude towards the U.S. in general and the role of this country in the world in particular has improved in 11 out of the 23 countries surveyed.[6] Nevertheless, it remains to be seen whether this shift represents a permanent change in foreign attitudes toward the U.S. "

halonachos wrote:These were responses to shuma, sebster. Shuma was blaming the republicans for all of americas' woes and I responded to that by showing them that it wasn't true. So you basically attacked my position by using my same position.

I don't think he was attacking your position on those points. Just adding his own commentary.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

halonachos wrote:These were responses to shuma, sebster. Shuma was blaming the republicans for all of americas' woes and I responded to that by showing them that it wasn't true. So you basically attacked my position by using my same position.

I don't think he was attacking your position on those points. Just adding his own commentary.

Don't know, I'm not sebster so I can only interpret what he says.

halonachos wrote:
Except the fact that it has been debated that most other countries count "child death" as stillbirth while americans count it as infant mortality if the newborn is alive for even a second. So, a misrepresentation due to the different standards of each country aren't really all that reliable.

That's incredibly easy to correct for; simple addition really. The fact that I've not seen an adjusted statistic leads me to believe that the corrected numbers don't favor the American system, but of course that's just a feeling. I haven't done the research necessary for confirmation.

halonachos wrote:
Except for the fact that illegals are able to get free medication even though they are uninsured and not having insurance doesn't mean you can't get care. There are free clinics and free ERs available. However, you are still billed even if you do have insurance. This bill can range from a $10 or $20 copay to $100+ for certain procedures.

No, not always. Co-payment rates vary considerably from plan to plan. I don't have a co-pay for any service, or generic prescription drug.

Regardless, those free services, particularly ERs, are not free. People still pay for them, just not the people using the services. Every time someone fails to pay a medical bill the cost to providers is figured into the cost of care for everyone else.

halonachos wrote:
Also, there is no such thing as free medication. My mom usually pays $30-$100 out of pocket for her prescription pills. So that brings up another point, if you can't afford insurance besides the government plan, how do you expect they pay for what the insurance will not cover?

Didn't you just say that illegals get free medication?

Ignoring that fact: medication is often an incidental expense, as opposed to a sustained monthly one. Its entirely conceivable for someone to be capable of purchasing his prescription drugs while not being able to sustain a regular monthly payment.

halonachos wrote:
The government hardly gives away money unless you bend over backwards while jumping over a hoop that is hung above a shark tank filled with sharks that have laser beams attached to their heads.

That's hardly been my experience; particularly as it relates to the various health and social services programs that my grandparents are on. If anything, I've been shocked at how open the system is to abuse.