Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Snowman90 wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Snowman90 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Oh, there is good and evil, it's just that generally the standards for "good" are much, MUCH lower in 40k.

Even then, they are thousands and thousands of years in the future. Society's good and evil can change in those years.

Having said that, bombing entire planets is still pretty well under "Evil".

Not if there is that one pesky cockroach(tyranid) on that planet. I think bombing a planet to kill the swarmlord is pretty much worth it.

But ze swarmlord is unkillables!

Klawz wrote:

Snowman90 wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Snowman90 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Oh, there is good and evil, it's just that generally the standards for "good" are much, MUCH lower in 40k.

Even then, they are thousands and thousands of years in the future. Society's good and evil can change in those years.

Having said that, bombing entire planets is still pretty well under "Evil".

Not if there is that one pesky cockroach(tyranid) on that planet. I think bombing a planet to kill the swarmlord is pretty much worth it.

But ze swarmlord is unkillables!

You're right. I'll fix it, bombing one planet in an attempt to kill the swarmlord would be pretty much worth it. Better?

[quote"Good" and "Bad" are for people who have never taken a philosophy course

The Emperor is basically dead, he's a bad leader(come on how many of you have taken orders from a skeleton), but i think he is doing what's right for humanity...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

Which would make them not evil, neither are tyranids. Both are forces of nature, behaving in the way they were designed to do. Neither is bothered with a concept of evil or are breaking their own moral codes. If they are evil, so are venus fly traps, ants, great white sharks and badgers...

This brings up an interesting thought. Does it actually say in the Codex that Orks lack the ability to reason? By definition it seems so - they seem to only be able follow instinct. Yet, they believe in intangible gods, have separate kultures, and have individual thought processes. I'm not sure I completely buy that Orks are just intelligent parts of the circle of life, gorillas w/ language.

Despite their inherent lack of conscience, they still seem to have the ability to reason. Which would then make them subject to these sorts of judgments.

Of course, as stated earlier, i think, Good and Evil are relative or don't exist, not so black and white, blah blah blah. Are the Orks evil? Perhaps that is another thread at another time.


edit: to stay back on-topic. yeah...emperor was good. I guess you can define him as a "protagonist". He never intentionally was an antagonist unless forced to be one, correct? So I guess in the eyes of broad storytelling, he can be considered a "good guy". Although I already posted he was good and the Inquisition is bad.

Wasn't he working on a way to access the Webway?

Tha Empra iz a big zoggin' koward, in my opinyon. Get of ya zoggin' a** an' fight, ya moron!

HadoukenAvenger wrote:Tha Empra iz a big zoggin' koward, in my opinyon. Get of ya zoggin' a** an' fight, ya moron!

Actually, according to the Feb 2009 White Dwarf, the orks see the Emperor as a powerful war god. They realize that he never fights personally, but they figure that anyone who commands such gigantic armies must be pretty important.

Well, I know when I've been told

Rube wrote:

Melissia wrote:Duh, everyone's evil in 40k. Tau are effing evil, too. Forced sterilization programs on humans in order to control the population, for example. Eldar are also effing evil, they would gladly see an entire subsector wiped clean of life just to save a single Eldar world. Chaos needs not be spoken for, they spread disease, death, and pain as a matter of course. Same with Dark Eldar. Necrons are murderous jerks, too. Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

It's not evil to sacrifice another species to save your own species. We kill cows so that humans might live, that isn't evil. The Eldar or Tau aren't morally obligated to care about humans, anymore so than we are to farmyard animals.

If the Craftworld Eldar or Tau were murdering, torturing and enslaving their own people they'd be evil, but they don't. I don't think the Emperor is an evil dictator because he killed aliens, I think he's an evil dictator because he killed humans who looked a bit funny (or looked at him funny), and enslaved the rest into a tyrannical Imperium that would institutionally crush their culture, brainwash them, torture any dissenters, and supress independant thought and freedom.

That might not've been the worst possible situation humanity could've ended up in, but it's still far from the best. The Eldar and Tau both have better systems, albeit not perfect. Even the humans during the Dark Age of Technology had much better standards of living, by all accounts. When they weren't being killed by robots.

Problem

Dark Eldar are still technically Eldar. And these two are constantly at war. Furthermore, Craftworlds occasionally go to war with one another, such as the case of Saim Hann. Eldar have a very tribal approach in their civilisation and are nowhere near as united as many would like to beleive.

Tau are alleged to have tampered with Vespid leaders with their helmets somehow to enslave them. Furthermore, amny researchers of Xenology believe there is some sort of chemical or enslavement tool wielded by Ethereals, in order to control the populace. Nothing concrete, but it is always hinted at.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Rube wrote:

Melissia wrote:Duh, everyone's evil in 40k. Tau are effing evil, too. Forced sterilization programs on humans in order to control the population, for example. Eldar are also effing evil, they would gladly see an entire subsector wiped clean of life just to save a single Eldar world. Chaos needs not be spoken for, they spread disease, death, and pain as a matter of course. Same with Dark Eldar. Necrons are murderous jerks, too. Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

It's not evil to sacrifice another species to save your own species. We kill cows so that humans might live, that isn't evil. The Eldar or Tau aren't morally obligated to care about humans, anymore so than we are to farmyard animals.

If the Craftworld Eldar or Tau were murdering, torturing and enslaving their own people they'd be evil, but they don't. I don't think the Emperor is an evil dictator because he killed aliens, I think he's an evil dictator because he killed humans who looked a bit funny (or looked at him funny), and enslaved the rest into a tyrannical Imperium that would institutionally crush their culture, brainwash them, torture any dissenters, and supress independant thought and freedom.

That might not've been the worst possible situation humanity could've ended up in, but it's still far from the best. The Eldar and Tau both have better systems, albeit not perfect. Even the humans during the Dark Age of Technology had much better standards of living, by all accounts. When they weren't being killed by robots.

Problem

Dark Eldar are still technically Eldar. And these two are constantly at war. Furthermore, Craftworlds occasionally go to war with one another, such as the case of Saim Hann. Eldar have a very tribal approach in their civilisation and are nowhere near as united as many would like to beleive.

Tau are alleged to have tampered with Vespid leaders with their helmets somehow to enslave them. Furthermore, amny researchers of Xenology believe there is some sort of chemical or enslavement tool wielded by Ethereals, in order to control the populace. Nothing concrete, but it is always hinted at.

I think The Vespid helmut theory has been debunked. The Vespid are indeed Volunteers.

And the man who created 40K shifts in his high-backed leather sofa in front of his 15-metre-wide computer screen and watches as his minions squabble over the universe which he created.

He, my friends, is the emperor.
And he is most definitely evil.

@Kamikaze: When? And, more importantly, how? It's certainly heavily alluded to in the fluff concerning them.

And then there is the Ethereals (possibly) unnatural ability to demand the command of those around them. The Farsight Enclaves are (possibly) evidence of this.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
And then there is the Ethereals (possibly) unnatural ability to demand the command of those around them. The Farsight Enclaves are (possibly) evidence of this.

How is that evidence?

Because of how the Tau have chanced in absence of Ethereals?

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Kamikaze: When? And, more importantly, how? It's certainly heavily alluded to in the fluff concerning them.

And then there is the Ethereals (possibly) unnatural ability to demand the command of those around them. The Farsight Enclaves are (possibly) evidence of this.

The mind control theory was forwarded by many people when the models were previewed. I was excited because I was like "cool, they're finally giving the Tau a darker edge like everyone else". Then the codex came out and it very clearly states they are simply for communication. Vespid, insects that they are, don't have the vocal capacity for words like humanoids. Then i was like "oh... alright.... lame."

No it didn't. It was alluded to in the White Dwarf Codex concerning them that the Vespid leaders seemed to agree with the Tau offers very quickly once the helmets were introduced. It's nothing concrete to condemn of justify the Tau, it is just alluded to.

Furthermore, in regards to the Farsight Enclaves, it is strange how a Tau general who has done very well for himself is considered to be pretty much an enemy of the Tau Enclaves because he has no Ethereals in his ranks.
The Witch Hunters also have a mission with the objectives to capture an Ethereal for dissection, in order to find out exactly how the control the command of their fellow Tau so well.

Emperors Faithful wrote:No it didn't. It was alluded to in the White Dwarf Codex concerning them that the Vespid leaders seemed to agree with the Tau offers very quickly once the helmets were introduced. It's nothing concrete to condemn of justify the Tau, it is just alluded to.

Furthermore, in regards to the Farsight Enclaves, it is strange how a Tau general who has done very well for himself is considered to be pretty much an enemy of the Tau Enclaves because he has no Ethereals in his ranks.
The Witch Hunters also have a mission with the objectives to capture an Ethereal for dissection, in order to find out exactly how the control the command of their fellow Tau so well.

Yes, but that could simply mean now that they understand each other. I'd like to see some dirt of the Tau too but I'm afraid on this one we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Fine, but its no mystery to us. The Etherals give off a pheromone that impels the other castes to obay. Not mind control in the traditional sense but a pretty wicked biological evolution to obtain.

Cases of Tau Doucheness:

1) Sterlisation of human (Gue'la) areas under Tau Control.

2) Possible tampering with Vespid leaders to dominate race.

3) Etheral Pheromone controls population. Again, this was only alluded to in my experience, I have yet to see anything that officially corroborates this in definitive matters. Like the Vespid helms it is only alluded to and never confirmed.

4) Being fecking Goody-two-shoes. With lazerz. *pew pew*

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Rube wrote:

Melissia wrote:Duh, everyone's evil in 40k. Tau are effing evil, too. Forced sterilization programs on humans in order to control the population, for example. Eldar are also effing evil, they would gladly see an entire subsector wiped clean of life just to save a single Eldar world. Chaos needs not be spoken for, they spread disease, death, and pain as a matter of course. Same with Dark Eldar. Necrons are murderous jerks, too. Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

It's not evil to sacrifice another species to save your own species. We kill cows so that humans might live, that isn't evil. The Eldar or Tau aren't morally obligated to care about humans, anymore so than we are to farmyard animals.

If the Craftworld Eldar or Tau were murdering, torturing and enslaving their own people they'd be evil, but they don't. I don't think the Emperor is an evil dictator because he killed aliens, I think he's an evil dictator because he killed humans who looked a bit funny (or looked at him funny), and enslaved the rest into a tyrannical Imperium that would institutionally crush their culture, brainwash them, torture any dissenters, and supress independant thought and freedom.

That might not've been the worst possible situation humanity could've ended up in, but it's still far from the best. The Eldar and Tau both have better systems, albeit not perfect. Even the humans during the Dark Age of Technology had much better standards of living, by all accounts. When they weren't being killed by robots.

Problem

Dark Eldar are still technically Eldar. And these two are constantly at war. Furthermore, Craftworlds occasionally go to war with one another, such as the case of Saim Hann. Eldar have a very tribal approach in their civilisation and are nowhere near as united as many would like to beleive.

Tau are alleged to have tampered with Vespid leaders with their helmets somehow to enslave them. Furthermore, amny researchers of Xenology believe there is some sort of chemical or enslavement tool wielded by Ethereals, in order to control the populace. Nothing concrete, but it is always hinted at.

I think The Vespid helmut theory has been debunked. The Vespid are indeed Volunteers.

No they're not.

The whole "joke" about the Tau race is that the entire race is, effectively, a slave race, little more than a weapon, wielded by others.

The Ethereal control is not alluded to, it's there in black and white in Xenology.

Is Xenology a book of some sort? Becuase honestly I have never heard any GW fluff actually come out and say this concretely.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is Xenology a book of some sort? .

yes.

reds8n wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is Xenology a book of some sort? .

yes.

A rather dashing book if I may say so myself

While I'm here, the Emperor is a prat. In tales of heresy, The Last Church he is an amazingly large prat. Honest.

I am honestly surprised this discussion didn't get /threaded a while ago (or if it did, that the point was ignored)

As previously stated, "good" and "Bad" are objective, and hard to lable in most situations... however in this one it is very clear cut.

As far as the actions of the Emperor of Mankind being good or evil, in essence they are both.

The fluctuation between the two occurs both depending on which timeframe/specific actions you are referring to as well as the point of view you may have.

For instance, to an Imperial Volunteer soldier, the emperor will most definately be a "good guy" and well merited, it was the Emperor that allowed the Guardsman to travel safely through space, it was the Emperor who fought long ago against the legendary Horus, thus preventing the spread of the hell that is chaos from tainting the Guardsman's ancestors, and it the the Emperor who provides a pillar of strength and hope for all mankind to unite under and 'worship'.

Now take the Ethereal who leads the Tau colony currently being invaded by the Imperium of Man... The emperor is most certainly a "bad guy" in his eyes as he is the tyrant who's iron fist and barbaric pride pushes a potentially peaceful race of 'thinkers' into conflict with his Tau. It is the Xenophobic teachings of the Emperor that has cost the lives of millions of his fellow Tau soldiers, and most of all, it is the Emperor whom brainwashes the rest of Mainkind into a stubborn frenzy when asked to side with Tau for the most important of all goals, The Greater Good!

*** SPOILER ALERT***
But what greater good can their be then the space marines, especially the honorable Space Wolves of Lemun Russ, who view their Father-Emperor as the highest of "Good Guy" standard as they allow their love for such a figure to have them turn their weapons on their battle-brothers, the Thousand Sons of Magnus the red. As they burn Prospero to the ground, they hold no remorse as in their minds, their cause is righteous. Horus, using the order of the Emperor of Mankind himself ((Albeit Horus was in fact lying)) tasked them with the purging of their once loyal brethren, and the Space Wolves, ever obiedient to their most benevolent father, are happy to answer the call...

...when on that same day, Magnus the Red weeps of the carnage that surrounds him. Ready to face his father's judgement, the meloncholy of Magnus is one of guilt, remorse, and most importantly, betrayal. Why are his people being slaughtered, why do his brothers take such joy in slaying their own kind? What happened to law, to civility, to JUSTICE! Why are his people so easly cast aside by the man whom he loved more then his own life (and as such, was ready to accept the judgement of his own personal death, but not the slaughter of innocents on his planet)? Why has his Emperor-Father fallen so far, and been so quick to commit the act of great evil that is the genocide of his thousand sons, and his homeworld. Surely, in the mind of Magnus the Red, the emperor was a "Bad guy"

*** End Spoiler***


AS the above examples should show, the point of view in question would alter the answer to the OPs question.

In summary:

If you play IG/SM/INQ the emperor is PROBABLY a good guy in your eyes.

If you play CSM/Any Xenos race the emperor is PROBABLY a bad guy in your eyes.

If you are wondering, in the case of "In general for the 40k universe". The answer is simple, as there is no "one race" so there is no "one point of view".

/thread

I really sick of people saying this like its even an answer. That's relativism. Relativism is merely one philosophy. One I personally don't subscribe too. It's a very messy belief system were everything is ok.
I'm more of an absolutist. We can judge a man based on the absolutes of his actions.

He is good and is still watching ove rmankind and protecting them from chaos wit his phycic powers.

It likes the war in Terror. One side is fighting for what it thinks is right, while the other side is just fighting for its survival.

But when both sides kill they are commiting evil. It just both sides believe their evil is not as evil as the others evil.

so you are calling a soldier evil for doing his job? He's fighting for a just cause. I know its bad but its like saying a S.W.A.T Member breaks down a door and sees a hostage handled by a drug dealer. Does he shoot the Dealer. Yes. Its not evil if it is Justice.

In absolutism killing a person is always wrong. One could argue killing in self-defense or the defense of others is not.
Killing cuz its your job isn't not one of the better reasons.

Just Cause is a great game.
But anyway the Evil ones are chaos as the seek to pervert the ideas of war.
War is to have a honorable death. That's why most go to war.