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tigonesskay wrote:The emperor was a big enough threat to chaos to the point that they got involved and twisted Horus and most of the other primarchs to turn against him. I think the emperor should at least told Horus of his plans of the gateway before he decided to leave the battle. I think Chaos wanted the emperor gone because he was a bit on the atheist side and against religion. Chaos needs humans to worship them to give them strength. So the emperor had to go. I don't think the emperor was evil. He could of taken over humanity at anytime if he was truely the power hungery type. In the future he saw that there were bigger threats to humanity and if we were to stay divided we would of been wiped out by the 'nids, orks, Tau, and other aliens.

Not true. Chaos is and always will be. Ask the Eldar. Hell, ask the Old Ones.

The Emperor DID take over humanity with one swoop. It was called the Great Crusade! Are you not familiar with the canon?

You guys are kind of forgetting that the Emperor is not a normal man... and thus kind of violates the whole equality for the many argument.

Why should we say we'd like an egalitarian society if there were super humans who could rule over us?

Firesolved wrote:

tigonesskay wrote:The emperor was a big enough threat to chaos to the point that they got involved and twisted Horus and most of the other primarchs to turn against him. I think the emperor should at least told Horus of his plans of the gateway before he decided to leave the battle. I think Chaos wanted the emperor gone because he was a bit on the atheist side and against religion. Chaos needs humans to worship them to give them strength. So the emperor had to go. I don't think the emperor was evil. He could of taken over humanity at anytime if he was truely the power hungery type. In the future he saw that there were bigger threats to humanity and if we were to stay divided we would of been wiped out by the 'nids, orks, Tau, and other aliens.

Not true. Chaos is and always will be. Ask the Eldar. Hell, ask the Old Ones.

The Emperor DID take over humanity with one swoop. It was called the Great Crusade! Are you not familiar with the canon?

There's no question that the Emperor took over humanity. Firesolved, I take it you believe the takeover was hostile in nature? And by hostile, I mean that he meant humans as a whole harm.

Grotzooka wrote:

Firesolved wrote:

tigonesskay wrote:The emperor was a big enough threat to chaos to the point that they got involved and twisted Horus and most of the other primarchs to turn against him. I think the emperor should at least told Horus of his plans of the gateway before he decided to leave the battle. I think Chaos wanted the emperor gone because he was a bit on the atheist side and against religion. Chaos needs humans to worship them to give them strength. So the emperor had to go. I don't think the emperor was evil. He could of taken over humanity at anytime if he was truely the power hungery type. In the future he saw that there were bigger threats to humanity and if we were to stay divided we would of been wiped out by the 'nids, orks, Tau, and other aliens.

Not true. Chaos is and always will be. Ask the Eldar. Hell, ask the Old Ones.

The Emperor DID take over humanity with one swoop. It was called the Great Crusade! Are you not familiar with the canon?

There's no question that the Emperor took over humanity. Firesolved, I take it you believe the takeover was hostile in nature? And by hostile, I mean that he meant humans as a whole harm.

Dude. Whenever you say, "Accept my terms or die", that is hostile. Or do you also think Hitler was also a benevolent saint who worked for the betterment of humankind?

((Hitler was confined to Earth at least; The Emperor started with Earth, succeeded, then went on to "unite" humanity...whether they wanted it or not...just read the Space Wolf tale from the Tales of Heresy. If you continue to disagree then I hope to dear god that you do not vote.))

FOR THE EMPRAH!

yup the heresy detector is definately reading this as heretical

Firesolved wrote:

Grotzooka wrote:

Firesolved wrote:

tigonesskay wrote:The emperor was a big enough threat to chaos to the point that they got involved and twisted Horus and most of the other primarchs to turn against him. I think the emperor should at least told Horus of his plans of the gateway before he decided to leave the battle. I think Chaos wanted the emperor gone because he was a bit on the atheist side and against religion. Chaos needs humans to worship them to give them strength. So the emperor had to go. I don't think the emperor was evil. He could of taken over humanity at anytime if he was truely the power hungery type. In the future he saw that there were bigger threats to humanity and if we were to stay divided we would of been wiped out by the 'nids, orks, Tau, and other aliens.

Not true. Chaos is and always will be. Ask the Eldar. Hell, ask the Old Ones.

The Emperor DID take over humanity with one swoop. It was called the Great Crusade! Are you not familiar with the canon?

There's no question that the Emperor took over humanity. Firesolved, I take it you believe the takeover was hostile in nature? And by hostile, I mean that he meant humans as a whole harm.

Dude. Whenever you say, "Accept my terms or die", that is hostile. Or do you also think Hitler was also a benevolent saint who worked for the betterment of humankind?

((Hitler was confined to Earth at least; The Emperor started with Earth, succeeded, then went on to "unite" humanity...whether they wanted it or not...just read the Space Wolf tale from the Tales of Heresy. If you continue to disagree then I hope to dear god that you do not vote.))

Hmmm.
I would argue that Hitler had no grand plan and was an evil evil evil evil evil demon with the aim of destroying most of humanity... But your point is a good one. I'd actually forgotten about that Space Wolf story. Good example.

Hitler's ultimate plan was world domination and "living space" for his "superior race".

Thankfully the Emperor has transcended race and ethnicity but his whole "Accept my doctrine or die" thing still stinks of subjugation. And subjugation to me isn't the way of a benevolent leader with the Imperium's well-being in mind. It sounds to me that the Emperor is using the Imperium for his own means. Whatever those goals are are unknown and will probably remain unknown for a long time but the Emperor is not a good guy. I am fairly sure of that.

The word bearers and space wolves are evil. Not the emperor! How dare they kill a planet of bird loving humanoids?

Samus_aran115 wrote:The word bearers and space wolves are evil. Not the emperor! How dare they kill a planet of bird loving humanoids?

In the name of the Emperor. And at that time, Horus hadn't taken over the Crusade yet. The word to destroy non-compliant worlds came straight from the Emperor.

You have fallen from the Emperors light,

this is a inexcusable sin

You are henceforth declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

you shall be put to death.

Toeko wrote:You have fallen from the Emperors light,

this is a inexcusable sin

You are henceforth declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

you shall be put to death.

HA HA! The secret is out, I might as well let go of my identity as an anonymous forum poster. I am really a C'Tan let loose in the past to sow disruption and dissent among the future followers of the Emperor.

Mission ACCOMPLISHED!

See you in thirty-eight thousand years, SUCKERS!

*dramatic ninja smoke and whooshing noise*

Firesolved wrote:

Toeko wrote:You have fallen from the Emperors light,

this is a inexcusable sin

You are henceforth declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

you shall be put to death.

HA HA! The secret is out, I might as well let go of my identity as an anonymous forum poster. I am really a C'Tan let loose in the past to sow disruption and dissent among the future followers of the Emperor.

Mission ACCOMPLISHED!

See you in thirty-eight thousand years, SUCKERS!

*dramatic ninja smoke and whooshing noise*

Curses! Foiled again!

Quick to the Black Ship!

Firesolved wrote:Hitler's ultimate plan was world domination and "living space" for his "superior race".

Thankfully the Emperor has transcended race and ethnicity but his whole "Accept my doctrine or die" thing still stinks of subjugation. And subjugation to me isn't the way of a benevolent leader with the Imperium's well-being in mind. It sounds to me that the Emperor is using the Imperium for his own means. Whatever those goals are are unknown and will probably remain unknown for a long time but the Emperor is not a good guy. I am fairly sure of that.

Nope, the Emperor was into his genetically inferior purging just as much as Hitler. Moreso actually, because this is 40k, and anything bad in 40k is nine thousand times worse than the worse things to ever actually occur.

There's a few mentions in the HH books about Mechanicum Genetors determining whether a population is considered genetically pure enough to be allowed into the Imperium. If they don't make the standard, every last man, woman, and infant is murdered without mercy and their history and culture burned. Sound familiar? This is before all the religious fanaticism, by the by, so this is how a 'scientific' Imperium viewed often peaceful and isolationist races.

Then there's the whole deal with raising humanity to it's psychic potential, so that they can free themselves from daemonic influence and no longer fear the warp. That plan was put into action by the Emperor, and would eventually culminate in the culling of all non-psychic humans.

/godwinned

In the futcher, Eldrads gost pushd Creed and Tzeentch into the well of eturnidy. when they woke up they were fused into one body that was the empra of mancind.


I think Spes marene is a pretty cool guy.

Eh runs through spes and doesn't afraid of anything.

I don't find Emperor good or evil.I view him as a man who just wanted to save humanity no matter the cost(which could be viewed as evil since a billions died during the great crusade).
I wonder what would happen if he told Horus and the other primarchs that he would returning to Terra to complete the Webway project.

Rube wrote:

Firesolved wrote:Hitler's ultimate plan was world domination and "living space" for his "superior race".

Thankfully the Emperor has transcended race and ethnicity but his whole "Accept my doctrine or die" thing still stinks of subjugation. And subjugation to me isn't the way of a benevolent leader with the Imperium's well-being in mind. It sounds to me that the Emperor is using the Imperium for his own means. Whatever those goals are are unknown and will probably remain unknown for a long time but the Emperor is not a good guy. I am fairly sure of that.

Nope, the Emperor was into his genetically inferior purging just as much as Hitler. Moreso actually, because this is 40k, and anything bad in 40k is nine thousand times worse than the worse things to ever actually occur.

There's a few mentions in the HH books about Mechanicum Genetors determining whether a population is considered genetically pure enough to be allowed into the Imperium. If they don't make the standard, every last man, woman, and infant is murdered without mercy and their history and culture burned. Sound familiar? This is before all the religious fanaticism, by the by, so this is how a 'scientific' Imperium viewed often peaceful and isolationist races.

Then there's the whole deal with raising humanity to it's psychic potential, so that they can free themselves from daemonic influence and no longer fear the warp. That plan was put into action by the Emperor, and would eventually culminate in the culling of all non-psychic humans.

/godwinned

Sooooooooooo the Emperor really is a bad guy?

((maybe the C'Tan aren't so bad after all))

Grotzooka wrote:
All I want to know is, in your opinion, is the Emperor a good guy or a bad guy?

First of all, who defines what good or bad is? I think it depends on which side of the pointed & loaded bolter you are on!

Good & Bad is such a black & white western/judeo christian view of things.

Everything is in shades of grey.There is no "good" or "bad" there are levels of choices which are better or worse for fellow man.

Remember, history is written by the winners and the losers are always villianized. Napoleon was loved by his people, Hitler was loved by his people, Caesar was loved by his people...but eventually the tides turn....

Now to answer the question, I'd say the emperor has a solid vision of how things should be (right or wrong from one's own stand point), and the willpower and drive to get it done. But nothing anyone ever does will fully 100% satisfy or even benefit everyone. Someone, somewhere (and in 40k universe, other races and aliens) will suffer from one man's grand vision of how he thinks the universe should be. Man playing god.

So in the most simple answer, he is a dictator, hell bent on his own pride and glory. Selfish desires lead to self destruction. He's a bad man.....IMHO.

He's not questing for godhood. He realized Horus could do his military job just as well, and retreated to Terra to study the Warp and how humanity could master it, and to work on the Astronomican.

Erebus was merely playing on Horus's insecurities, and did so quite well. Everything he said was a lie. Later, a Daemon who contacts Horus mentions that chaos "has no interest in your world." Uh-huh.

Ostrakon wrote:He's not questing for godhood. He realized Horus could do his military job just as well, and retreated to Terra to study the Warp and how humanity could master it, and to work on the Astronomican.

Erebus was merely playing on Horus's insecurities, and did so quite well. Everything he said was a lie. Later, a Daemon who contacts Horus mentions that chaos "has no interest in your world." Uh-huh.

He wasn't studying the Warp. He was undertaking research to utilize the Eldar's webway.

Magnus is by far my favorite primarch and the Emperor planned on betraying him far before the Nikea Hearing. I mean, sitting your son on a Golden Throne for eternity so he could be the beacon in the webway? If he isn't a "bad guy" then he is at least a bad parent.

But seriously, Erebus didn't lie about everything. Horus was totally right about the Emperor taking credit for all his hard work. The Emperor back in his accursed Palace doing things that he wouldn't even tell his supposedly most beloved son AND taking the glory from Horus for each victory won? I would say feth that too.

The Emperor was a conqueror. Don't forget many of History's most beloved and greatest people were conquerors. America for example was not created and expanded by wishful thinking. It was created by General Washinton.
The Imperium has fallen a long, long, long way from what the Emperor intended. Mostly due to religon: the thing he opposed the most.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Emperor was a conqueror. Don't forget many of History's most beloved and greatest people were conquerors. America for example was not created and expanded by wishful thinking. It was created by General Washinton.

What? America wasn't created by ol' Georgie. I am pretty sure the writers of the Declaration of Independence had something to do with the forming of America. That "wishful thinking" of a free country that would embrace liberty and justice for all (as it was defined back then anyways) was the inspiration for the brave acts of our Continental Army. Without that "wishful thinking" there would be no flame of ambition and lust for freedom in the men that fought against the Redcoats.

There isn't quite a Canadian equivalent that I know of so that I could put it into perspective for you (the rebellions in upper and lower Canada were important but eventually crushed; poor William Mackenzie and Robert Nelson).

The Emperor is on such a high horse that he says "Look if you don't get inspiration from my ideas and thoughts, we're gonna kill you. Inspired yet?". I just cannot respect that.

Firesolved wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Emperor was a conqueror. Don't forget many of History's most beloved and greatest people were conquerors. America for example was not created and expanded by wishful thinking. It was created by General Washinton.

What? America wasn't created by ol' Georgie. I am pretty sure the writers of the Declaration of Independence had something to do with the forming of America. That "wishful thinking" of a free country that would embrace liberty and justice for all (as it was defined back then anyways) was the inspiration for the brave acts of our Continental Army. Without that "wishful thinking" there would be no flame of ambition and lust for freedom in the men that fought against the Redcoats.

There isn't quite a Canadian equivalent that I know of so that I could put it into perspective for you (the rebellions in upper and lower Canada were important but eventually crushed; poor William Mackenzie and Robert Nelson).

The Emperor is on such a high horse that he says "Look if you don't get inspiration from my ideas and thoughts, we're gonna kill you. Inspired yet?". I just cannot respect that.

America was born in the fires of war. They then went out and conquered the indigenoud people while expanding. While that part has since become controversial most Americans are pretty pround of their militaristic birth.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:America was born in the fires of war. They then went out and conquered the indigenoud people while expanding. While that part has since become controversial most Americans are pretty pround of their militaristic birth.

The same could be said for any Empire. Look at Britain. Wanna talk about brutal...

Firesolved wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:He's not questing for godhood. He realized Horus could do his military job just as well, and retreated to Terra to study the Warp and how humanity could master it, and to work on the Astronomican.

Erebus was merely playing on Horus's insecurities, and did so quite well. Everything he said was a lie. Later, a Daemon who contacts Horus mentions that chaos "has no interest in your world." Uh-huh.

He wasn't studying the Warp. He was undertaking research to utilize the Eldar's webway.

Magnus is by far my favorite primarch and the Emperor planned on betraying him far before the Nikea Hearing. I mean, sitting your son on a Golden Throne for eternity so he could be the beacon in the webway? If he isn't a "bad guy" then he is at least a bad parent.

But seriously, Erebus didn't lie about everything. Horus was totally right about the Emperor taking credit for all his hard work. The Emperor back in his accursed Palace doing things that he wouldn't even tell his supposedly most beloved son AND taking the glory from Horus for each victory won? I would say feth that too.

Not sure about that one.... I'm as much of a Magnus fan as anyone (which is why I loath A Thousand Sons!), but it's not at all clear to me that Magnus was going to be stuck on the Golden Throne for eternity prior to the Heresy.

If the Emperor's work on the webway succeeded, there'd be no reason for the Astronomican as a beacon for Astrogators. And if Magnus hadn't damaged the Webway, there'd've been no threat of Daemons entering the real world in the Emperor's Palace on Terra.

Hence, the two reasons to have a massively-powerful psyker on the Throne at all times would be lessened. Or am I missing something there?

Valete,

JohnS

What's eye opening for many is the true root of the american revolution...john adams one of thee richest men in the colonies who was in the import/export business was smuggeling in french wine and being highly taxed and was being routinely surprise inspected by british tax officials....they found the wine and the crew had an altercation....eventually john adams ( a wealthy man ) riled up many workers and less wealthy and helped instigate civil strife and the path to rebellion.....

What's funny is, if the revolution had failed, the rebels would be known as traitors instead of heroes......

Klawz wrote:

Exarch_Nektel wrote:The Emporer is pro-humanity. So, from my point of view, good.

The Emporer is vehemently against any sort of religion. So, from my point of view, bad.

He's kind of a grey area.

So being an atheist can cancel out loving humanity? What weird world do you live in, where the only way a person can be good is by loving Jesus/Yahweh/Allah/Satan/Krishna/Buddha/Zeus/Odin?

The word bearers were evangelist. They invented the Cult of the Emperor. He opposeed this, and all other forms of religion, because he knew what the chaos gods were. Chaos GODS.

I think you missed my point entirely. That is not what I meant at all. I have more than one good friend who is an athiest, and I hold nothing against athiests as long as they hold nothing against me for not being an athiest. What I meant to say is that I don't like the fact that the Emoporer went around killing everyone who believed in a god.

I hope there are no hurt feelings, and I hope to leave this discussion put, becauswe I don't want this topic to become a religion debate.

cygnnus wrote:

Firesolved wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:He's not questing for godhood. He realized Horus could do his military job just as well, and retreated to Terra to study the Warp and how humanity could master it, and to work on the Astronomican.

Erebus was merely playing on Horus's insecurities, and did so quite well. Everything he said was a lie. Later, a Daemon who contacts Horus mentions that chaos "has no interest in your world." Uh-huh.

He wasn't studying the Warp. He was undertaking research to utilize the Eldar's webway.

Magnus is by far my favorite primarch and the Emperor planned on betraying him far before the Nikea Hearing. I mean, sitting your son on a Golden Throne for eternity so he could be the beacon in the webway? If he isn't a "bad guy" then he is at least a bad parent.

But seriously, Erebus didn't lie about everything. Horus was totally right about the Emperor taking credit for all his hard work. The Emperor back in his accursed Palace doing things that he wouldn't even tell his supposedly most beloved son AND taking the glory from Horus for each victory won? I would say feth that too.

Not sure about that one.... I'm as much of a Magnus fan as anyone (which is why I loath A Thousand Sons!), but it's not at all clear to me that Magnus was going to be stuck on the Golden Throne for eternity prior to the Heresy.

If the Emperor's work on the webway succeeded, there'd be no reason for the Astronomican as a beacon for Astrogators. And if Magnus hadn't damaged the Webway, there'd've been no threat of Daemons entering the real world in the Emperor's Palace on Terra.

Hence, the two reasons to have a massively-powerful psyker on the Throne at all times would be lessened. Or am I missing something there?

Valete,

JohnS

Page 447, third paragraph.

It was part of the Emperors grand scheme. And Magnus kinda ruined it by busting through the experimental webway.

Doesn't the Emperor consume the souls of thousands of human psykers annually to sustain himself?

Not really what I'd consider "good". But then the grimdark demands it...l