Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

spartanlegion wrote:What's eye opening for many is the true root of the american revolution...john adams one of thee richest men in the colonies who was in the import/export business was smuggeling in french wine and being highly taxed and was being routinely surprise inspected by british tax officials....they found the wine and the crew had an altercation....eventually john adams ( a wealthy man ) riled up many workers and less wealthy and helped instigate civil strife and the path to rebellion.....

What's funny is, if the revolution had failed, the rebels would be known as traitors instead of heroes......

Sounds like someone's been reading Paulo Friere.

Government of the landowning white men, by the landowning white men, for the landowning white men. Because we believe in freedom.

Let's see (short list)

World and universal domination
human cloning and genetic experamentations
eradication of all world religions
billions dead that stood in the way
police society
conformity required

Yeah, that was Hitlers agendas too...

So the Emp is BAD

CT GAMER wrote:Doesn't the Emperor consume the souls of thousands of human psykers annually to sustain himself?

Not really what I'd consider "good". But then the grimdark demands it...l

EXACTLY! The "man" eats souls for c'tans sake!

spartanlegion wrote:What's eye opening for many is the true root of the american revolution...john adams one of thee richest men in the colonies who was in the import/export business was smuggeling in french wine and being highly taxed and was being routinely surprise inspected by british tax officials....they found the wine and the crew had an altercation....eventually john adams ( a wealthy man ) riled up many workers and less wealthy and helped instigate civil strife and the path to rebellion.....

What's funny is, if the revolution had failed, the rebels would be known as traitors instead of heroes......

Exactly, the Conqueror is always a hero to his people and the devil to the people he conquered.

MekanobSamael wrote:

spartanlegion wrote:What's eye opening for many is the true root of the american revolution...john adams one of thee richest men in the colonies who was in the import/export business was smuggeling in french wine and being highly taxed and was being routinely surprise inspected by british tax officials....they found the wine and the crew had an altercation....eventually john adams ( a wealthy man ) riled up many workers and less wealthy and helped instigate civil strife and the path to rebellion.....

What's funny is, if the revolution had failed, the rebels would be known as traitors instead of heroes......

Sounds like someone's been reading Paulo Friere.

Government of the landowning white men, by the landowning white men, for the landowning white men. Because we believe in freedom.

Out of context by far.

In our modern days, yes, that was by no means a "free government". We were founded by rich, non-tax paying, slave-owning, women beating old guys. That was the norm back then. They were as free as free got before "civil rights" was even a thought in anybody's head.

It is poor judgment to focus on the past and not what has become here in the present. Today, because of those snobbish, greedy old white dudes, we have a free country (well as free as free gets for now with a certain socialist in office...but that's for another forum).

The Emperor was a brutal conqueror and dictator but most if not all of what he warned against was true. The Warp is super dangerous and should not be toyed with. 99% of all aliens are hostile; some being dangerous enough to destroy civilization. The only way to combat such threats was to unify humanity which had been shattered across the galaxy a million times over. The Emperor was clairvoyant pragmatist.

The Emperor was a benevolent Dictator, loved by his people before his 'accension' to 'god-hood'. He didn't force them to love him but he threatened the rediscovered worlds with annihilation if they didn't follow his cause. He didn't need a police state, beacause if they have previously been threatened by him once, they tend to obey the Golden Giant, his Sons, and his Super Soldiers. He did have a bit of a 'we come in peace; Shoot to kill' attitude' but it was for the 'Greater Good' of Humanity.

He definately belongs in a grey area, with a tint of good. He united almost all of lost humanity and prevented Horus from achieving victory. However he did slaughter billions in the process and now has a corrupt government who preaches 'Love the Emperor or we'll blow your head clean off'.

So all in all, with 0 being Evil and 10 being Saintly he would get a 6. Grey, not black or White.

Gathering Storm wrote:The Emperor was a benevolent Dictator, loved by his people before his 'accension' to 'god-hood'. He didn't force them to love him but he threatened the rediscovered worlds with annihilation if they didn't follow his cause. He didn't need a police state, beacause if they have previously been threatened by him once, they tend to obey the Golden Giant, his Sons, and his Super Soldiers. He did have a bit of a 'we come in peace; Shoot to kill' attitude' but it was for the 'Greater Good' of Humanity.

He definately belongs in a grey area, with a tint of good. He united almost all of lost humanity and prevented Horus from achieving victory. However he did slaughter billions in the process and now has a corrupt government who preaches 'Love the Emperor or we'll blow your head clean off'.

So all in all, with 0 being Evil and 10 being Saintly he would get a 6. Grey, not black or White.

If Hitler had won WW2 he'd have 'united' all of humanity. Those parts of humanity still left alive. He would have been remembered and loved as a brilliant man, possibly a god - he had his own cult after all!

They're really very similar, only it true grimdark fashion it was 40k's Hitler who won.

Also, I don't think can describe any dictator as 'benevolent' if they brutalise and mass-murder entire civilizations. That's erring toward 'malevolent', if anything...

Firesolved wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Emperor was a conqueror. Don't forget many of History's most beloved and greatest people were conquerors. America for example was not created and expanded by wishful thinking. It was created by General Washinton.

What? America wasn't created by ol' Georgie. I am pretty sure the writers of the Declaration of Independence had something to do with the forming of America. That "wishful thinking" of a free country that would embrace liberty and justice for all (as it was defined back then anyways) was the inspiration for the brave acts of our Continental Army. Without that "wishful thinking" there would be no flame of ambition and lust for freedom in the men that fought against the Redcoats.

There isn't quite a Canadian equivalent that I know of so that I could put it into perspective for you (the rebellions in upper and lower Canada were important but eventually crushed; poor William Mackenzie and Robert Nelson).

The Emperor is on such a high horse that he says "Look if you don't get inspiration from my ideas and thoughts, we're gonna kill you. Inspired yet?". I just cannot respect that.

Don't start assuming that Continentals fought for FREEEEEDOOOOM... More likely it was simple tax avoidance and the fact that all their friends were going

The Emperor character certainly can be seen a lot of different ways, but in a universe where the very being of mankind is mortally threatened everywhere and all the time you have to unite (even through force) and lay down a strict law to survive as a species.

You can be soft on dissenting factions/worlds within your Imperium, but if you are the whole thing falls apart. If you are the one who can decide 1.000.000 innocent people die, but if you do make that decision it means 1.000.000.000 more get to live. Would you make the decision?

Where do you draw the line as far as necessary evil goes? That is the main question that always comes up with me when the topic of the Emperor & the ways of the Imperium is concerned.

Rube wrote:

Gathering Storm wrote:The Emperor was a benevolent Dictator, loved by his people before his 'accension' to 'god-hood'. He didn't force them to love him but he threatened the rediscovered worlds with annihilation if they didn't follow his cause. He didn't need a police state, beacause if they have previously been threatened by him once, they tend to obey the Golden Giant, his Sons, and his Super Soldiers. He did have a bit of a 'we come in peace; Shoot to kill' attitude' but it was for the 'Greater Good' of Humanity.

He definately belongs in a grey area, with a tint of good. He united almost all of lost humanity and prevented Horus from achieving victory. However he did slaughter billions in the process and now has a corrupt government who preaches 'Love the Emperor or we'll blow your head clean off'.

So all in all, with 0 being Evil and 10 being Saintly he would get a 6. Grey, not black or White.

If Hitler had won WW2 he'd have 'united' all of humanity. Those parts of humanity still left alive. He would have been remembered and loved as a brilliant man, possibly a god - he had his own cult after all!

They're really very similar, only it true grimdark fashion it was 40k's Hitler who won.

Also, I don't think can describe any dictator as 'benevolent' if they brutalise and mass-murder entire civilizations. That's erring toward 'malevolent', if anything...

The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

umm, you can macro-verse that to a species scale rather than "racial" scale. The Emperor has some dumb religion based on species genetics. Why not want to unite ALL humanoid alien species?



Anyway, to OP - imo, the Emperor was good. The Imperium is bad.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

umm, you can macro-verse that to a species scale rather than "racial" scale. The Emperor has some dumb religion based on species genetics. Why not want to unite ALL humanoid alien species?



Anyway, to OP - imo, the Emperor was good. The Imperium is bad.

With who? The Orks? Deamons? Eldar? 99% of aliens are hostile to humanity and would destroy the whole species if they could.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

umm, you can macro-verse that to a species scale rather than "racial" scale. The Emperor has some dumb religion based on species genetics. Why not want to unite ALL humanoid alien species?



Anyway, to OP - imo, the Emperor was good. The Imperium is bad.

With who? The Orks? Deamons? Eldar? 99% of aliens are hostile to humanity and would destroy the whole species if they could.

not the point. Just relatively comparing the Emperor to Hitler and how they can be considered similar. Neither were fully accepting of all living things Diplomacy should never be abandoned!

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

umm, you can macro-verse that to a species scale rather than "racial" scale. The Emperor has some dumb religion based on species genetics. Why not want to unite ALL humanoid alien species?



Anyway, to OP - imo, the Emperor was good. The Imperium is bad.

With who? The Orks? Deamons? Eldar? 99% of aliens are hostile to humanity and would destroy the whole species if they could.

not the point. Just relatively comparing the Emperor to Hitler and how they can be considered similar. Neither were fully accepting of all living things Diplomacy should never be abandoned!

You gotta understand that the 40K universe isn't like the Star Trek or Star Wars one were many alien races work together just fine mostly because they look the same. There's actually an Alien that kills people, steals their brain gains the appearance and knowledge of that person for a month then moves onto the next brain it can get. All the while moving up imperial society until it can perhaps get a chance at being an Imperial govenor. That's why the Emperor is like "just kill all Aliens to be on the safe side". The risks of Alien fraterization outway the benefits.

John Grammaticus also got a half glimplse of something else when he shook the emporers hand. They never got around to explaining that outside of dramatic cliff-hanger. But I wouldn't be surprised if we get another little tidbit about the Emperors origin or efforts (more expansive than the webway) in a future HH book.

As for Good or Evil... I asked my go-to source for complex morale judgements and it's final decision? Maybe. There you have it!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

Nope, that's wrong. The Emperor had some standard at which point you were too genetically 'impure' to enter into the Imperium. The Thousand Sons HH book mentions it at one point - pg195, the Mechanicum geneticists determine that the Avenians were within 'tolerable parameters' genetically. What do you suppose happened to those who weren't within within those tolerable parameters? They were allowed to go on their way peacefully?

Was compliance or death. Simple choice.

Primarchs weren't ordered to just kill da xenos/abhuman, they got some leeway.
Some like lorgar just put everything to the torch if it didn't start to venerate his vision of a god-emperor.
Others claimed a lot of victories, can't have that without "wars".....
I doubt there is a " purge [ insert abhuman or xenos here ] at sight "order.

Rube wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

Nope, that's wrong. The Emperor had some standard at which point you were too genetically 'impure' to enter into the Imperium. The Thousand Sons HH book mentions it at one point - pg195, the Mechanicum geneticists determine that the Avenians were within 'tolerable parameters' genetically. What do you suppose happened to those who weren't within within those tolerable parameters? They were allowed to go on their way peacefully?

Indeed, full-blown unstable mutations are not tolerated. As it turns out most mutation like that is due to the warp. Unchecked mutation is another threat to humaity that could cause extinction.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Anyway, to OP - imo, the Emperor was good. The Imperium is bad.

I'd agree with that one.

@Extinction Angel: Magic 8-balls! My only weakness!

To the Sisterhood, there is, of course, only one answer.

He is the very definition of good

He's a lame duck.

Wish the CSM legions would shout that as they go into battle.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:[
umm, you can macro-verse that to a species scale rather than "racial" scale. The Emperor has some dumb religion based on species genetics. Why not want to unite ALL humanoid alien species?

I like that idea, had he survived the Heresy I could easily visualise him hugging a Genestealer, Carnifex or Hive Tyrant. Then his head would be bitten clean off...

His xenocidle campaign was bad, since their weren't 'nids around at that time, thier were orks but come on, killing every race that isn't human is unfair IMO.

Melissia wrote:To the Sisterhood, there is, of course, only one answer.

He is the very definition of good

Like an army of children.....

The Emperor is a dictator. You are only allowed to think what he (and the inquisition) want you to think, anything else is heresy. If you do not agree with his propaganda, you get killed. I still say he is grey, but a darker grey.

Actually the Emperor isn't a dictator. That's the Ecclesiarch and the High Lords of Terra. The Emperor doesn't actually personally run the Imperium, not for thousands of years.

In fact, it was the Emperor whom freed the Imperium from the oppression of Goge Vandire, by having Alicia Dominica summoned to him and giving her a vision which caused her to slay Vandire, and then form the Sisterhood.

Melissia wrote:Actually the Emperor isn't a dictator. That's the Ecclesiarch and the High Lords of Terra. The Emperor doesn't actually personally run the Imperium, not for thousands of years.

In fact, it was the Emperor whom freed the Imperium from the oppression of Goge Vandire, by having Alicia Dominica summoned to him and giving her a vision which caused her to slay Vandire, and then form the Sisterhood.

I think the question of whether he was good or bad, and subsequent discussion about his dictatorship, was referring to when he was alive and kicking!

It's pretty hard to be a dictator, or evil for that matter, when you're biologically identical to a loaf of moldy bread. If he's benevolent after his incarceration in the Golden Throne it's only because he can't move, talk, breath or affect the outside world in any positive or negative way besides possibly cultivating some nasty bacteria that might give someone a cold.

Rube wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually the Emperor isn't a dictator. That's the Ecclesiarch and the High Lords of Terra. The Emperor doesn't actually personally run the Imperium, not for thousands of years.

In fact, it was the Emperor whom freed the Imperium from the oppression of Goge Vandire, by having Alicia Dominica summoned to him and giving her a vision which caused her to slay Vandire, and then form the Sisterhood.

I think the question of whether he was good or bad, and subsequent discussion about his dictatorship, was referring to when he was alive and kicking!

It's pretty hard to be a dictator, or evil for that matter, when you're biologically identical to a loaf of moldy bread. If he's benevolent after his incarceration in the Golden Throne it's only because he can't move, talk, breath or affect the outside world in any positive or negative way besides possibly cultivating some nasty bacteria that might give someone a cold.

The only tiny difference being that a loaf of moldy bread doesn't need 1000 psyker souls a day sacrificed to sustain it

That depends on whether or not you consider psyker status biological. Because as a psyker, the Emperor is quite clearly still alive...

Melissia wrote:That depends on whether or not you consider psyker status biological. Because as a psyker, the Emperor is quite clearly still alive...

How so?

The Astronomicon doesn't count. The Imperium thinks it's caused by the Emperor, but there are example in the background of psykers detecting when other psykers die from a distance (kind of like 'I sense a disturbance in the force', only with more insanity). Maybe the Navigators can see Terra in the warp because they can sense all the hundreds of psykers getting slaughtered there daily. They avoid the Eye of Terror for similar reasons.

Let's see...

Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Witch Hunters makes it clear that the Emperor grants visions, miracles, and etc to the faithful.

Codex: Daemons makes it clear that the Emperor fights off the powers of the warp to protect humanity from the worst of the depredations of Chaos.

Codex: Sisters of Battle makes it clear that the Emperor met in person with Alicia Dominica (technically the other way around, but it's clear that he communicated with her somehow) in mid M.36.

I could probably go find more if I were bored enough.