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Sidstyler wrote:I don't consider posting an incomplete PDF online "publishing" an update, though.

exactly.

For friendly games you'll you have to discuss it with whomever you are playing. It will be up to the discretion of the TO(s) at tournaments.

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Of course you have to do the same for everything BBF.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Remember that until GW makes an actual official statement you have to use the most current codex they have published. Sorry.

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Nope, not unless you are a) ina tournament that states so or b) want to play a piick up game agaisnt someone who wants you to.

Unless you can find a *rule* stating that, it remains just your opinion.

Sorry.

It is just that it could be more of an issue with these two codices. I can hear it now "Well I saw this this copy of an email on the Internets. It says I can do it !!"



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I really doubt that will come up in conversation. Really.

Most people wil go "oh, you have the book, cool!" and play.

Blown out of all proportion, entirely so. Every game is, by definition, opponents consent - and this doesnt exactly add a lot to the conversation now, does it?

"can I play a game with you? I'm using the WH book using IG allies"

"Sure! Dont you like the PDF?"

"No, they removed allies so new players wouldnt buy a new army when it is likely being removed, but I love my IG vets that I have used for X years"

Hardly difficult.

Kroothawk wrote:Now I want Demolishers and Predators in my Tyranid army .... as allies .... to compensate for the weaknesses of the Tyranid Codex
Or how about a Rhino rush Genestealer army
Oh, and Terminator Squads for the Tau, Boss mobs in deepstriking Land Raiders, and the Dark Angels jet bike for everyone, and WBB for Kroot, and and wait...

BTW scanning a part of the Codex and distributing it for free is not a different Codex, not even a Codex, as noone can seriously play the army without having the full Codex, including background and the modelling pages.

If thats your stance you probbaly don't realize the gaping holes in either codex that do actually exist. Both Daemonhunters and Withc Hunters lack much in the way of long range shooting. A typical Witch Hunter army usually has no more then 3 units with anything over the range of 12" for all intents and purposes. When almost every unit in the army is equipped with rapid fire weapons as standard which can't shoot over 12 if you move then there is a problem. Having a few heavy weapon squads can alleviate that problem. Witch Hunters can take heavy bolters or the Exorcist tank all of which are found in the Heavy Support section. The other alternative is to take an Inquisitor with gun servitors which is pretty fragile unit. Daemonhunters are slightly better off since every unit can take a psycannon just about but they do not have the baility to combat squad say like marines and that leaves your unit sitting somewhere. Thats somewhere where those expensive Grey Knights aren't doing anything they are good at. Just some food for thought.

Holy gak... five pages of this bull, over 'allies'.

And people say I complain about everything. 'Least I have a point when I get on my soap box...

One codex per army is best codex.

Black Blow Fly wrote:One codex per army is best codex.

Two codex enter, one codex leaves!

Two codex enter, one codex leaves!

Defiler wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Defiler wrote:Let's not play coy here, I think we know all the people who are in arms are the ones running mystics.

Is that so? I run a WH Inquisitor lord and Eversor. I guess I'm just as bad as those dirty users-of-units-to-try-to-win, and must be thrown out with them, eh?

Way to not actually read my post.

Well, you said everyone pissed off played mystics, I showed you that you are wrong. Is something wrong?

ph34r wrote:

Defiler wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Defiler wrote:Let's not play coy here, I think we know all the people who are in arms are the ones running mystics.

Is that so? I run a WH Inquisitor lord and Eversor. I guess I'm just as bad as those dirty users-of-units-to-try-to-win, and must be thrown out with them, eh?

Way to not actually read my post.

Well, you said everyone pissed off played mystics, I showed you that you are wrong. Is something wrong?

i actually use grey knight termies and a grand master with my deathwing. when terminators are your "troops", you have to find something even more 1337 to fill those elite slots!

yet again, i don't see a problem. if someone has a physical 3rd edition codex, they get to use the ally rules. if not, then no. for tournies, i see this being enforced while friendly games get alot more leeway but is ultimately up to the discretion of the players.

*edit* i feel dirty contributing to this thread that should have ended a long time ago. hey mods, is there possibly anything that can still be added to this discussion? all i see are the same viewpoints being repeated over and over.. and over...

I also use GKT for DW but it is a small thing to lose in order to see Inquisitor/Mystics no longer allowed in IG armies. It is very over powered and has needed to go for a long long time.

long long... fun fun... me love you...



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Black Blow Fly wrote:I also use GKT for DW but it is a small thing to lose in order to see Inquisitor/Mystics no longer allowed in IG armies. It is very over powered and has needed to go for a long long time.

long long... fun fun... me love you...



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First off, I'm appalled to see this thing still going. Secondly, you're so desperate to remove Mystics that you'd throw out using GKT and Inducted Guard for DH even though you use some of those options yourself? I don't think I've ever even seen another IG player use Mystics, and I've been to Adepticon, Ard Boyz, and 10+ other local events in the St. Louis area in the last year. I'm not sure where this left you all with such a bad taste in your mouth other than just the idea of big scary internet lists are out there somewhere that you MIGHT run into, but really, there's a resolution for how to deal with it for the time being, everyone's sure allies will be going away in a small matter of time anyway; you've waited this long, why not just wait until GK gets their codex?

I've played against IG lists with mystics and GK lists with mystics, all in mere friendly games.

Frazz the term friendly is a mythic legend, much like the grail. The old wound dude... the old wound is acting up again...



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Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:I also use GKT for DW but it is a small thing to lose in order to see Inquisitor/Mystics no longer allowed in IG armies. It is very over powered and has needed to go for a long long time.

long long... fun fun... me love you...



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First off, I'm appalled to see this thing still going. Secondly, you're so desperate to remove Mystics that you'd throw out using GKT and Inducted Guard for DH even though you use some of those options yourself? I don't think I've ever even seen another IG player use Mystics, and I've been to Adepticon, Ard Boyz, and 10+ other local events in the St. Louis area in the last year. I'm not sure where this left you all with such a bad taste in your mouth other than just the idea of big scary internet lists are out there somewhere that you MIGHT run into, but really, there's a resolution for how to deal with it for the time being, everyone's sure allies will be going away in a small matter of time anyway; you've waited this long, why not just wait until GK gets their codex?

Hey dude I did not mean to appall ya. So sorry! Here is a nice red rubber ball... so fun to play fetch with on a busy freeway!

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By "this thing", I meant this topic like it's still a matter of debate, especially since it's now surviving at least two locked threads I can think of.

I think the reason it keeps going is because somehow GW managed to NOT unequivocally answer the question of which Codex is the legal one. They literally said both. Acknowledging the discrepancies between the two at the same time.

Le sigh.

Okay, then in that case, if your opponent has a PDF, there are no allies, otherwise he's built a list with allies in mind, potentially. Can't they both be legal? Your opponent is going to hand you an army list prior to the game, so it's not like there's any surprises. If it's a tournament, there will be a list of well-defined acceptable army lists, a la Adepticon, Ard Boyz, and any other tournament that is big enough to actually post rules online, so you know what you'll be going up against ahead of time. Nothing's actually really changed from prior to a week ago. Why is this not a settled issue?

I will not let anyone use allies in a friendly game.

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Black Blow Fly wrote:Remember that until GW makes an actual official statement you have to use the most current codex they have published. Sorry.

Unless you're playing in an organised event, you can use whatever codex you feel like.

I've played games in the past against people whose codex has been updated but are still using the old one... generally just because they haven't had a chance to pick up the new one yet. It's not really an issue. An army that I would have happily played against a week ago doesn't suddenly become a crime against humanity just because GW released new rules this week.

Its the principle that counts and I think you are missing that point. I mean just how far would you let it go? One day Fred says he wants to use the old 4ed Chaos codex coz its a lot better and he tells me has a PDF for it ??

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What I'm missing is why this is such a big issue.

You are, of course, perfectly entitled to refuse to play against someone using the printed DH codex. Just as you are entitled to refuse to play against someone wanting to play 2nd edition, or wanting to play a game without the FoC... or who is using Space Marines.

But there is no immutable set of laws graven in stone that govern Warhammer 40K and say 'Thou shalt only play with the most recent rules!'

That's a personal choice, not a requirement. But frankly, passing up a game on the basis that someone isn't using a downloadable version of a codex over the one they bought seems a little absurd.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Its the principle that counts and I think you are missing that point. I mean just how far would you let it go? One day Fred says he wants to use the old 4ed Chaos codex coz its a lot better and he tells me has a PDF for it ??

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Maybe I would. I've never played against a 4E CSM codex, and my friend who plays CSM whines about how awesome it was in comparison.

andrewm9 wrote:If thats your stance you probbaly don't realize the gaping holes in either codex that do actually exist. Both Daemonhunters and Withc Hunters lack much in the way of long range shooting. A typical Witch Hunter army usually has no more then 3 units with anything over the range of 12" for all intents and purposes.

I would LOVE to have as much long range shooting with my Tyranids as DH and WH have! Can I now have a Demolisher or Basilisk squad? And a Land Raider for my HQ?

I still can't understand why so many people call the DH-pdf a Codex when it obviously is an incomplete scan with no FOC and a missing "Grey Knights special rule on page 10". Forgetting the FOC and the major special rule is not a "legal update invalidating the 3rd edition Codex".

Matter of fact:

(04:05:47 PM) Brad: would you want to try a game with the old CSM codex sometime?
(04:06:03 PM) John <omitted>: Yes and no
(04:06:23 PM) John <omitted>: why do you ask?
(04:06:33 PM) Brad: curious to see how it would perform.
(04:06:43 PM) John <omitted>: No idea
(04:07:13 PM) Brad: i'd probably run 5th ed IG against it, just to warn you, unless you wanted me to roll back to the 4E book i have to keep the point values similar
(04:08:52 PM) Brad: well, let me know. worst case, I could always go with the DH route. as I understand, there's a chance some of those special rules might actually function against their daemons.
(04:09:11 PM) John <omitted>: lol
(04:09:19 PM) John <omitted>: nah it's cool
(04:09:35 PM) John <omitted>: I'd like to try it some time but we are kinda booked tight till next week it seems

I'll let you know how it goes.

insaniak wrote:What I'm missing is why this is such a big issue.

It is a big issue its just for some reason you fail to recognize that. That is all there is to it.

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Chaos Doesn't have a 5th ed dex bros...

Chaos Space Marines have...

2nd Edition Dex named "Codex: Chaos"

3rd Edition dex Named "Codex: Chaos"

3rd Edition 2nd Print dex named "Codex: Chaos Space Marines"

4th Edition dex named "Codex: Chaos Space Marines"


We DESPERATELY need a 5th edition codex, jerks...

My mistake. I knew there were 4 of them but I didn't realize there were two 3rd edition ones. Learn something new every day.
EDIT: Hehe, apparently the IG one I have was third edition also.

You kant use that one either, you bad bad boy !!



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