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2011/01/17 14:37:10
Subject: Re:RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
Amaya wrote:A hero recently inducted into a super elite special police force is guided by visions of an ancient civilization in his quest to discover and destroy a powerful evil weapon that controls the minds of its followers.
Both games feature:
"super elite special police force" Jedi and Spectres.
Ancient civilization that holds the key to defeating the evil enemy. Rakata and Protheans.
Both games feature heavy emphasis on visions.
A fallen defender now seeks to conquer the people he once protected. Darth Malak and Saren.
A powerful construction that twists the minds of those aboard it. Star Forge and Sovereign.
A search for an ancient construction hidden on or around a lost world. The Star Forge and the Conduit.
IE, standard epic plot points. I could twist all of these to fit Lord of the Rings, too.
You can, but the similarities don't fit nearly as well.
Oh yeah they do.
Super elite special police force = Rangers
Ancient civilization that holds the key to defeating the evil enemy: the civilization buried at the barrow downs, where the Halflings got their swords which killed the lead nazgul (and Frodo had other artefacts from that period which proved to be important plot points.
Using visions was part of several key plot points.
Sarumon is the fallen defender endangering the people he once protected.
The One Ring is a powerful construction which corrupts the minds that use it. It's used differently than in Mass Effect, but it's still there, in fact, its corrupting influence is far more important to the plot of LotR than the corruption of the Reaver ships are until ME2's ending. (blacked out for the sake of hiding spoilers).
They found plenty of ancient and lost locations, too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/17 14:46:38
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/01/17 15:51:43
Subject: Re:RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
Ancient civilization that holds the key to defeating the evil enemy: the civilization buried at the barrow downs, where the Halflings got their swords which killed the lead nazgul (and Frodo had other artefacts from that period which proved to be important plot points.
Using visions was part of several key plot points.
Sarumon is the fallen defender endangering the people he once protected.
The One Ring is a powerful construction which corrupts the minds that use it. It's used differently than in Mass Effect, but it's still there, in fact, its corrupting influence is far more important to the plot of LotR than the corruption of the Reaver ships are until ME2's ending. (blacked out for the sake of hiding spoilers).
They found plenty of ancient and lost locations, too.
Well if you put the spoiler warning after the text then that doesent really help... but not much of a spoiler anyway
Also "super elite special police force" could include the fellowship "Ancient civilization that holds the key to defeating the evil enemy" well sauron and gandalf are originaly from the same place (Valar?)
"fallen defender" could also be sauron
but yes those plot points are pretty standard
2011/01/17 17:17:35
Subject: RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
The LotR similarities are stretched. Rangers aren't allowed and accepted as defenders like the Spectres and Jedi. Saruman never served in the 'elite defense force' like Saren and Malak did. A space station and spaceship have a lot more in common than a little ring.
@Soladrin are you talking about scifi video games or just scifi in general? And do you prefer hard scifi?
Sarumon served in the circle of wizards, another elite defense force sent by the Valar to Middle Earth to help the denizens against the servants of Melkor.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/01/17 22:53:19
Subject: RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
Amaya wrote:The LotR similarities are stretched. Rangers aren't allowed and accepted as defenders like the Spectres and Jedi. Saruman never served in the 'elite defense force' like Saren and Malak did. A space station and spaceship have a lot more in common than a little ring.
@Soladrin are you talking about scifi video games or just scifi in general? And do you prefer hard scifi?
Scifi in general, and whats hard sci-fi ?XD
2011/01/17 23:39:55
Subject: RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
Then yes, I prefer that. My fav parts of scifi is usually when they (try to) explain the technology en stuff like that, though all the scifi I like is in books anyway.
2011/01/18 00:03:16
Subject: RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
So basically like Mass Effect, which is relatively hard sci-fi?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/01/18 00:36:50
Subject: RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
Spectres and Jedi are much more similar than the Circle of Wizards. If you can't agree with that than there is no reason to keep discussing it with you.
Uh, not really? The element zero which creates the titular mass effect is the only "soft" aspect, everything else is pretty hard science.
For example, unlike most sci-fi, they make it explicitly clear that once a weapon is fired in space, it keeps going until it hits something. Thats a freakishly rare occurrence in sci-fi.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/18 01:55:35
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/01/18 02:02:06
Subject: Re:RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
The codex entries in Mass Effect I are the most comprehensive and well thought out stuff as your going to see in any sci-fi. Just think of anything about how "I wonder how this works" and they'll be a well written entry in it. Definately not "soft". ME is my second favorite sci-fi universe and who knows maybe it'll be my first when its all said and done.
2011/01/18 02:05:53
Subject: RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/01/18 02:49:58
Subject: Re:RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
Yeah that was great but I think some people didn't read ME's codex. It's great and comprehensive too. Entries on heat accumulation changed the way I think about ship combat. Often you're in more danger of cooking your crew than getting blown up. Whether or not you fight in a star system can make a big difference. Don't even get me started on GARDIAN laser defense systems: that is truly the only accurate depiction of laser combat (sorry, star wars you can't jump out of the way of lasers). There's even an article on what a ship looks like travelling at light speed (red or blue depending on if its coming or going).
2011/01/18 06:35:10
Subject: RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
Melissia wrote:Uh, not really? The element zero which creates the titular mass effect is the only "soft" aspect, everything else is pretty hard science.
For example, unlike most sci-fi, they make it explicitly clear that once a weapon is fired in space, it keeps going until it hits something. Thats a freakishly rare occurrence in sci-fi.
2. Minovsky Particle: The laws of physics are broken in a specifically declared way. Expect hundred-page dissertations on fictional physics and consistent internal rules.
What a terrible and lame article. It's holy Grail of sci-fi is current real life. No speculation or looking to the future. In other words not sci-fi. Any attempts to use real science no matter how thought out or researched can only achieve a 2. Honestly dumbest piece of crap I've read in a while.
2011/01/18 08:01:36
Subject: Re:RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What a terrible and lame article. It's holy Grail of sci-fi is current real life. No speculation or looking to the future. In other words not sci-fi. Any attempts to use real science no matter how thought out or researched can only achieve a 2. Honestly dumbest piece of crap I've read in a while.
Mass Relays are real science? Biotics are real science? They have a basis in real science, but they break all accepted laws.
Hard scifi does not break accepted scientific laws. Soft scifi does not. Neither is superior to the other. It's simply a way of classifying the vast world of scifi.
A 100 page dissertation ranks as a 2 on that guys scale. So if we are to take him seriously some writers 100 page science based thesis (which can be difficult to write) is merely dismissed in Internet cynic guys 1 sentence throwaway line. That seems fair.
If we are not to take him seriously (which btw we are not) then don't take him seriously because that page was just a joke. Do not use it as actual literary criticism and then add a
2011/01/18 08:20:18
Subject: Re:RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A 100 page dissertation ranks as a 2 on that guys scale. So if we are to take him seriously some writers 100 page science based thesis (which can be difficult to write) is merely dismissed in Internet cynic guys 1 sentence throwaway line. That seems fair.
If we are not to take him seriously (which btw we are not) then don't take him seriously because that page was just a joke. Do not use it as actual literary criticism and then add a
Since when does a 100 page disseration make biotics and mass relays work? Not to mention all the other propulsion, laser weapons, hovercraft, etc, in Mass Effect?
You act like this an insult to Mass Effect. It is not. Mass Effect is simply not hard scifi. There is nothing wrong with that. If anything, it's a good thing because hard scifi has a tendency to be boring (imo).
Soladrin wrote:Sorry, but I'm not gonna play a game if it requires me to read 5 books worth of boring codex entries to get some background info :\
That's fine different strokes for different folks. I can accept a criticism that ME is too sci-fi-y or to talky. Most people find Modern Warfare 2 has just the right amount of sci-fi and character development. That's why COD is the most popular series and not ME.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amaya wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:A 100 page dissertation ranks as a 2 on that guys scale. So if we are to take him seriously some writers 100 page science based thesis (which can be difficult to write) is merely dismissed in Internet cynic guys 1 sentence throwaway line. That seems fair.
If we are not to take him seriously (which btw we are not) then don't take him seriously because that page was just a joke. Do not use it as actual literary criticism and then add a
Since when does a 100 page disseration make biotics and mass relays work? Not to mention all the other propulsion, laser weapons, hovercraft, etc, in Mass Effect?
You act like this an insult to Mass Effect. It is not. Mass Effect is simply not hard scifi. There is nothing wrong with that. If anything, it's a good thing because hard scifi has a tendency to be boring (imo).
The argument isn't that the the 100 page dissertation makes so-and-so real it's that it makes it good science fiction. That's what sci-fi stands for.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/18 08:32:58
2011/01/18 08:38:45
Subject: RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
You don't understand the differences between hard and soft scifi.
Elemen Zero does not exist as far as we know. Using it to explain away the way things work in ME automatically moves ME into the realm of soft scifi despite how well the 'science' behind it is developed and explained.
Hard scifi avoids elements that do not exist (as far as we know). The tech in hard scifi is based on science as we currently understand it.
If you want a more detailed look at the differences, here you go:
Amaya wrote:You don't understand the differences between hard and soft scifi.
Elemen Zero does not exist as far as we know. Using it to explain away the way things work in ME automatically moves ME into the realm of soft scifi despite how well the 'science' behind it is developed and explained.
Hard scifi avoids elements that do not exist (as far as we know). The tech in hard scifi is based on science as we currently understand it.
If you want a more detailed look at the differences, here you go:
In fact, the boundaries between "hard" and "soft" are neither definite nor universally agreed-upon, so there is no single standard of scientific "hardness" or "softness." Some readers might consider any deviation from the possible or probable (for example, including faster-than-light travel or paranormal powers) to be a mark of "softness." Others might see an emphasis on character or the social implications of technological change (however possible or probable) as a departure from the science-engineering-technology issues that in their view ought to be the focus of hard SF.
Well since noone can agree on a definition anyway, who cares?
Many of the hardest sci-fi novels also have "handwavium"
Mass effect does have more of a basis in reality than star wars, and hey you may not like the game but calling it bland when you have never played it?
2011/01/18 14:17:26
Subject: RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
See I get all of what that site is saying, but I still come away from it thinking, dude's got too much time on his hands.
Plus I do find it amusing that Star Trek is seen as wishy washy, but so many current scientist's note it as a inspiration of why they got into the field.
To me thats what matters, I don't really care how realistic it is, all I care about is if the setting is interesting.
To me most of the series, books etc listed as Hard, or upper medium are some of the most boring Sci-fi settings out there.
I do wonder if that site was some kind of fanboy thing, trying to justify their like of the more dull aspects of Sci-fi media.
"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.
Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
2011/01/18 14:41:52
Subject: RPGs, a dying breed? And is Bioware too formulaic?
Melissia wrote:Uh, not really? The element zero which creates the titular mass effect is the only "soft" aspect, everything else is pretty hard science.
For example, unlike most sci-fi, they make it explicitly clear that once a weapon is fired in space, it keeps going until it hits something. Thats a freakishly rare occurrence in sci-fi.
You're seriously using tvtropes as a source? Tvtropes is by its own admission a place to have fun and look up pop culture icons. Not an encyclopedia. That's not how tvtropes is intended to be used.
Read your own cited source:
Bear in mind, of course, that no simple single-dimensional scale can encompass the full nuances of the idea of "hardness" in Science Fiction.
I think I'm going to laugh at you and go to some other thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/18 14:43:17
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
