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1hadhq wrote:

Who would Calgar deem worthy to march under his command?
I mean, the Exorcists and the Ultramarines had not an easy time getting along..

When did this happen? Is this described in Badab War 2? Or are you thinking of the Mortifactors in the Ultramarines book where Uriel Ventris fights the Nids?

Dorn is pretty deliberately portrayed as taking the loss of the Emperor harder than pretty much anyone else, and I always read the Iron Cage affair as his absolute low-point. I like the way Abnett portrayed him in the audio-book "Lightning tower" where you can see he truly believes in the cause and dedicates himself to it, but he also has this nagging worry in the back of his head that maybe Kurze is right. Maybe the galaxy is just too horrible for the kind of utopia he wants to build to actually work out, and everything is about to go straight to hell. He approaches the whole Heresy almost in Denial about what's happening, no way my buddy Horus could be a monster like that. This whole fortification thing is a temporary measure and right after Horus and the Emperor talk it out we'll bring the sculptures back out and restart the great crusade and everything will be just how it's supposed to be. Yeah... no. Sorry buddy. Get ready for Grimdark.

Just to make sure I'm on-topic, I don't think Guilliman deserves "more praise" so much as he deserves "less hatred". Most of the hatred comes from the way Codex Space Marines was written as Codex "HEY THESE GUYS IN BLUE ARE AWESOME AND OH YEAR THERE ARE SOME OTHER CHAPTERS TOO" which is a massive disservice to a lot of interesting ideas in the SM codex and in the background of the other primarchs. I tend to view almost all the hatred as a response to the over-selling of a Primarch that is cool and all, but not super-cooler perfect and better than the other loyalist primarchs to warrant this. Like his chapter, the biggest defining feature of Roboute's background is that he is the standard of original intent to which others are compared. Without Ultras as the stock, "generic" marine chapter you hear about the BAs aren't as tragic, the Wolves aren't as feral, etc. Simillarly, Corax isn't as driven to make desperate decisions to rebuild his legion, Dorn isn't as tragic in his mental break-down after the death of his father, and the Lion isn't as paranoid or frustrated by his inability to relate to and understand other people. He's the baseline template of how a Primarch should act, compared to his very emotional brothers. There's nothing bad about that, per say, but it also means that the other primarchs are going to inevitably be more human and fleshed out than he is.

It feels to me at least, as though the ultramarines are a neccessity in the 40k universe, like a baseline or golden standard from which all other chapters and races are measured. It doesn't feel as though GW is trying to impress upon me that they are super-awesome and better than everyone, simply that they are the example. All other deviations from this principle are what put the others in contrast. The BA, DA, SW, ravens, etc are all cool and have depth of their own, but when you compare them to the ultras, it adds something to them.

They provide the straight, laced, good guys, superman aspect to the 40k universe. This is not to the detriment of the other races, who simply shine more (if you were first inclined to favour them) by comparison to the boy scouts that are the ultras. As an example, compare batman and superman. The ultras are clearly superman in this analogy, everything by the book, no dark plotting or skulking, just morally clean punch the bad guy and be done with it. Batman when compared (still awesome in his own right) now looks all the more dark and mysterious. Instead of being diminshed, he is enhanced by the comparison. Please no exacting corrections from comic book fanboys (of which I am one), I'm using broad strokes here.

So it is with roboute and co. You may not like him, but he is there to demonstrate what the imperium is supposed to be about by the writers of the fluff. You may not agree that this is how it should be and that the imperium would benefit from more flexibility and so on, but this dogmatic approach is what has made the imperium what it is today. All criticism aside, to hold that together for 10,000 years (longer than the traceable roots of civilisation as we know it now) is pretty impressive.

Reanimator and inquisitorfaust make a very thoughtful point regarding UMs being the standard against which other chapters are judged. My "defending the UM thread" was all about this, actually. The idea is that the UM remind us that humanity is still the "good guy" -- or, at least, they remind us that the Grim Dark is optional to some extent.

I don't think, however, that Guilliman represents this kind of standard among his brother primarchs.

In this context, I have to echo Mike Noble's question: why no hatred for Cadians? I guess it's just not as cool to hate Cadians . . .

Manchu wrote:Reanimator and inquisitorfaust make a very thoughtful point regarding UMs being the standard against which other chapters are judged. My "defending the UM thread" was all about this, actually. The idea is that the UM remind us that humanity is still the "good guy" -- or, at least, they remind us that the Grim Dark is optional to some extent.

I don't think, however, that Guilliman represents this kind of standard among his brother primarchs.

In this context, I have to echo Mike Noble's question: why no hatred for Cadians? I guess it's just not as cool to hate Cadians . . .

I agree, I think Sang. is more representative of virtue/nobility.

It's true: aside from his wings, Sanguinias is the (perfect) standard.

Hmm, realised I was pipped there by inquisitorfaust- must read/post faster!

inquisitorfaust wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Who would Calgar deem worthy to march under his command?
I mean, the Exorcists and the Ultramarines had not an easy time getting along..

When did this happen? Is this described in Badab War 2? Or are you thinking of the Mortifactors in the Ultramarines book where Uriel Ventris fights the Nids?

Could have the Exorcists and Mortifactors swapped unknowingly.
The point was the difference after 10k years.
Shared geneseed isn't automatically shared interests.

There is standardization, called codex astartes. There is another, the standard of the space marine wargear.
Not only organization is standardized.
But, the actual issue is trifold:
a) M.Ward
b) lack of HH-spotlight for Gullyman
c) ultras are seen as standard of the SM

I could see a solution for A....
B should be dealt with in the future.
C isn't a problem until you need to be "special".

The Primarchs may not have one "standard Primarch", as they are IMO aspects of the Emperor and the latest hints at specific roles for them after the great crusade
is important to remember.

Manchu wrote:It's true: aside from his wings, Sanguinias is the (perfect) standard.

I think Guilliman may have the edge on Sanguinius on tactics, but yeah i have to agree with the perfect part if his background is anything to go by

Manchu wrote:In this context, I have to echo Mike Noble's question: why no hatred for Cadians? I guess it's just not as cool to hate Cadians . . .

Part of the hate for big-name poster kids is that they are perceived to get improbable character-shield wins that they do not particularly merit. The idea of Guard winning against ANYONE in codex-level background (as opposed to just the heroes of a BL novel) is still a fresh, exciting new development in Warhammer lore and everyone is still in shock.

Still, I actually think you can see a light-hearted early form of this in the CREEEEEEEEED meme going around. It's not as pronounced as the Ultra-hate, but then I suspect the first few times the scions of Gulliman were called Smurfs it wasn't particularly mean-spirited either.

Why, to emulate that sort of mental meme-development within the minds of GW staff using mere mortals instead of superhuman space marines, it would take some sort of tactical gen- CREEEEEEEEEEEED!

(Actually, I rather like the Cadians for all the work they have done to break the idea that all Guard armies are meat shield oceans that resemble Russians at Stalingrad. Leave that trope for the Valhallans, but the IG can be more than that if you want a regiment of men instead of statistics.)

1hadhq wrote:
Could have the Exorcists and Mortifactors swapped unknowingly.
The point was the difference after 10k years.
Shared geneseed isn't automatically shared interests.

That's fine, and I broadly agree with you on that point. I'm just an Exorcists fan so I am always looking out for more scraps of official Exorcists background.

inquisitorfaust wrote:

Manchu wrote:In this context, I have to echo Mike Noble's question: why no hatred for Cadians? I guess it's just not as cool to hate Cadians . . .

Part of the hate for big-name poster kids is that they are perceived to get improbable character-shield wins that they do not particularly merit. The idea of Guard winning against ANYONE in codex-level background (as opposed to just the heroes of a BL novel) is still a fresh, exciting new development in Warhammer lore and everyone is still in shock.

This may sound harsh but I really do blame Ward. You read the SM codex and it's over the top, 12 year old fan boy style grates on the nerves. I don't think it's specific to Ultramarines though, as the BA dex is equally bad.

Of course Guilliman important, who else qwould write a book that gives us such wonderful fuel for the fire.

Rowboat Gillie mann
He does whatever a Gillie mann can
Watch him slay all the orcs in the land
Watch him slay all the orcs in the land
With a single blow of his power hand

Rowboat Gillie mann
Floats on water because he can
When he farts its the Lost and the Damned
When he farts its the Lost and the Damned
Deep striking in just like had planned

Rowboat Gillie mann
He's not in stasis he's just taking a nap
To recover from a two ton crap
To recover from a two ton crap
He'll wake up when the Emperor's attacked

hee hee hee.

I like the Ultramarines, all things considered. Its fun to poke fun of the anal retentive order though. The only reason I paint my marines different is that I don't like so much shiney plastic looking armor, I like the metallic armored marine look better. That is why they gave us so many offshoots. Iron and bronze for me thank you, but yes they still count to 10 well.

I don't think the SMurf name was origionally intended as an insult either ("muh spesh muhreens" is far worse, insulting the type of player, not the army) but when the Codex SM came out, there were still old versions of SW and BA, so they really were the amazing beatdown codex, which probably annoyed non SM players. I was just starting between shift changes from 4th to 5th and I saw with a beginners eyes the huge differences after their wolfy cousin's codex emerged, of how they were thought of by other players I talked to or wrote with online.

No longer was SM the WAAC "cheese" list because their offshoots have blown them out of the water for power-gaming and now have that cornered. Now they are just a Codex again, no longer the WAAC book of easy-win-for-morons by comparison to some of the more recent releases. In fact, I see less "muh spesh muhreens" any more than I see more "muh spesh wolves" nowadays for easy-win list builders.

Proud to be a SMurf player (even if they're iron colored smurfs)

AgeOfEgos wrote:

inquisitorfaust wrote:

Manchu wrote:In this context, I have to echo Mike Noble's question: why no hatred for Cadians? I guess it's just not as cool to hate Cadians . . .

Part of the hate for big-name poster kids is that they are perceived to get improbable character-shield wins that they do not particularly merit. The idea of Guard winning against ANYONE in codex-level background (as opposed to just the heroes of a BL novel) is still a fresh, exciting new development in Warhammer lore and everyone is still in shock.

This may sound harsh but I really do blame Ward. You read the SM codex and it's over the top, 12 year old fan boy style grates on the nerves. I don't think it's specific to Ultramarines though, as the BA dex is equally bad.

That's part of it, but I think it's also that the many chapters using codex Space Marines relate differently to the Ultras than say BA successors do to Dante's crew. For one thing, they are all successors. You don't see the BA dex being used to represent chapters from other gene-stock, so there's no "wounded pride" aspect of what about Corax or Dorn or Vulcan when the BA dex talks about Sanguinius. We're all pretty used to the idea that a given codex will "talk up" the army in the codex, but here we are seeing the Raven Guard and the Salamanders and Imperial Fists effectively treated as "just another" codex chapter that wants to be like the Ultras instead of their own legion and their own history and personality. It's pretty clear to me how that would lead to a bit of resentment, when a 2nd founding bunch like the Templars can get their own codex list but a first founding legion gets special character scraps off of Marneus Calgar's table.

I am actually kind of pissed off at Guilliman right now after starting The First Heretic.

I'm more pissed at the Emperor though. He really has problems with his personnel management skills.

Lorgar got what he deserved!

The hell you say!

No lickspittle servant of the false emperor deserves any kind of praise. Especially not those who wear blue armour ( blue with egyptian style helmets is ok btw, don't want to be turned into a toad after all ).
I mean, blue, BLUE! Only Fulgrim's depraved legion wears a more hideous colourscheme...
Ah well, back to sulking in the eye of terror. Haven't yet reached my required level of bitterness for today.

But the cowardly servants of warp creatures do?
Those too afraid of BLUE space marines?

Will be a ton of fun when the OP returns.....

KingDeath wrote:No lickspittle servant of the false emperor deserves any kind of praise. Especially not those who wear blue armour ( blue with egyptian style helmets is ok btw, don't want to be turned into a toad after all ).
I mean, blue, BLUE! Only Fulgrim's depraved legion wears a more hideous colourscheme...
Ah well, back to sulking in the eye of terror. Haven't yet reached my required level of bitterness for today.

Sorry, but tzeentch's legions are even worse! I mean, they're all flashy pink, bright blue or sparkling purple! How hideous and depraved is that? Furthermore, their main troop choice consists of howling, mutated marshmallows! I prefer the Ultrasmurfs!