Manchu wrote:
What does that leave? The Black Templars -- surprise, surprise it's a Chapter founded by Dorn and led from the beginning by Dorn's most fanatical intimates. Whatever Dorn was before the Heresy, he was a changed man after the Emperor's enthronement. It is clear that he was in no way able to run the Imperium after the Heresy. He could not even manage his own Legion. Thankfully, the Emperor had a dependable son in Guilliman, someone who could safeguard what was left of His legacy and keep broken men like Dorn from squandering it.
Even so, Dorn managed to sew the seeds of his own mental breakdown into what would eventually become a new legion. If there is any Chapter of Space Marines whose beliefs and practices run more contrary to the spirit of the Great Crusade, I've yet to hear about it. Meanwhile, Ultramar is the realization of the Emperor's vision for all humanity. Those who follow the example set by Guilliman are still fighting the Great Crusade in a way.
Back to the old incorrect view upon Black Templars?
Its without doubt the
BT who are still crusading and still NOT implementing Psykers like Nikaea demands...
Its without doubt the
BT who see the Emperor as their leader, not their God.
Its without doubt the
BT codex that defines the
BT.
Ultramar is better run, but thats obvious as Gullymans abilities were to organise, so his pragmatic approach got the Ultras more recruts than anyone and a stable
ressource basis. The crusade? The crusade had a leader, called Warmaster, who was reported to "move on" and leave the "boring" work to others.
Some of the "famous" Primarchs were never that focused on building an empire or controlling one.
Gullymans example isn't
still fighting the grerat crusade in a way as the great crusade was abandoned by Guillyman and his way is to stabilize, not to reconquer.
If Gullymans way would be "great crusade stylish", his sons should have dealt with these xenos in the eastern fringe a long time ago.
Crantor wrote: Dorn did lose his mind for a bit after the heresy and the iron warriors messed him up good. that in itself should tell you that he didn`t have what it took to hold it together because he couldn`t hold himself together. i read Nemesis, values and morals aside, he really wasn`t running the imperium, he was coordinating the defense of terra. The sigilite and Constantine were really the ones running things. Dorn was an excellent Praetorian, but he was not up to running the Imperium without his father.
Constantine? A Custodes is responsible for the Emperors safety, no more no less. But never in charge of anything else. Without orders from the Emperor himself,
Custodes won't act.
But yes, the sigilite and the formed council, (later high lords), run the Imperium.
Bromsy wrote:
Gullyman is neutrality distilled into human form. An inspired leader could have had the chance of completing the Emperor's vision for humanity, Gulliman ensured that mediocrity became the norm, as that was his great talent.
A "bean counter" in the mantle of a Primarch does not need inspiration. He has to be good at copy-pasting, which Gullyman did with Codex astartes.
But the Emperors vision was lost with the Emperor.
None of the Primarchs/high lords had the stature to step into the Emperors treads. The plan seemed to be to specialize and split up dutys if you look at the
latest installments of the
HH series.
Bromsy wrote:
For all intents and purposes the sixth legion has endured to this day, with their only concession being that they started calling themselves a chapter.
Gulliman was smart enough to realize that if the Ultramarines fought the Wolves, he would be absolutely wrecked, even if he won.
With the revealed duty of the Space Wolves
, to insist on full compliance to codex to the letter
may have lead to a "close and final debate" between Russ and Gullyman.
All of the loyal Legions kept some of their old ways and I am sure it was possibly because Gullyman needed his brothers consent to change anything.
The price of Russ to join was to try once, and failing to create successors endangered to loose the asset of Space wolves completly.
Marines were to valuable to loose so compliance became unneccessary...
The choice was "spirit of the codex" or "letter of the codex" and "spirit" preserved the options of the
IoM far better.
Manchu wrote:
Post-Heresy, Dorn was not a reasonable fellow. Go read Index Astartes. Actually, he was so fething unreasonable that he almost destroyed what was left of the Imperial Fists for basically no reason. Thankfully, Guilliman stepped in and saved both him and his Legion.
fething Unreasonable?
Maybe different reasons, that is.
More in line with the old ways of the Samurai, where failing to protect was a "die worthy issue".
So Gullyman stepped in. Why is Dorn not still around then?
Manchu wrote:
Guilliman could have easily handled the post-Prospero SWs.
No. Not a personal one on one. And thats what would happen. Russ is meant as a hunter, he would only strike if he could get the job done.
Manchu wrote:
The only real challenge for Guilliman would have been if every other loyalist legion (or what little remained of them) ganged up on him. And that wouldn't happen because several other legions agreed with the adoption of the Codex.
Why don't you cite the correct "split" of the Legios? Because only half of them agreed?
Legion vs Legion the ultras may have the upper hand ( if there are no other forces or the mechanicum decides to opt against him ), but it isn't
likely as brothers may have a direct confrontation where common space marines won't contribute that much ...
Manchu wrote:
Furthermore, I defy you to ever come up with any actual number published by GW concerning how many Space Wolves are in a single Great Company much less exactly how many Space Wolves there are over all.
Nicely done. Like asking the overall numbers of Orks.
Unknown values prove nothing.
Shall I call you out to come up with the correct and complete number of Ultramarine successors of the 2nd founding
Manchu wrote: Some people, like yourself, only see the Codex as an attempt by Guilliman to force all other chapters to adhere to the most minute of details regarding his ideas about orgnization, tactics, beliefs, etc. This is unequivocally false.
Since Manchu knows Gullymans intend, can we replace M.Ward with Manchu?
You know, Mr "bestest marines" is the one responsible to claim the Codex Astartes a "holy tome" and "sacrosanct".
.
Bromsy wrote:The Imperial Fists got fired upon because they wouldn't go along with Gulliman, and that is Dorn starting a civil war? .
Manchu wrote: We know that there were some Legions that didn't like Guilliman's ideas: namely, the Space Wolves and the Salamanders along with the Imperial Fists. But only Dorn's forces were ever fired upon. Only Dorn ever brought things to a head. We know that it is not in Guilliman's character to act irrationally, even when his dignity is insulted. We know the opposite about Rogal Dorn
You need 2 to act stubborn to have a fight like this. 1 is not enough.
You seem to forget that Dorn was one of the few "militarists" ( grown up inside the miltary ) of the Primarchs and had greater numbers as others at hand even after defending Terra. So the Major faction of the Codex opposers may have been the IF and thus fired was upon the IF.
Manchu wrote: TBH, your problems are more specifically Matt Ward, .
Sad truth.
Manchu wrote: Flouting the Codex in that sense isn't the difference between having seven companies of 120 marines rather than ten companies of 100 marines but rather maintaining a legion instead of a Chapter. Again, the thing that is important is what has kept something like the Badab War from being another Horus Heresy-scale civil war. The only "Chapter" that really seems to flout the Codex in that sense is the Black Templars. Everyone else makes a semblence of compliance, with the Space Wolves being the least amenable.
I don't know if you know, but the tyrant of badab did enlarge his force over any boundaries of the codex
.
The badab war was also a case of marines thinking themselves superior and thus "naturally" the one with the last word. Rather close to the Heresy.
Plus you seem to ignore the close ties of the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels to their respective successors. Would assume its only the flaw that keeps the
BA
restricted in size and the
DA are able to count on a "few" chapters if neccessary.
Again, several thousands of marines to call on isn't unheard of.
BT do it openly, other may pull a few strings to make it happen...
Manchu wrote:
Think of it in terms of the spirit and the letter of the law. The spirit of the Codex is preserving the Imperium from Space Marine rebellions. The letter is company organization, camo patterns, squad tactics, religious doctrines, etc.
Like the spirit of the rules?
I really like it when former
GW game designers have an article about "spirit", "letter" and "neccessitys of design" in a
WD in the same week we have these important parts of
40k in a thread.
How important is the letter?
Maybe it is open to interpretation and that is the only thing that saves a 10k year old tome from outdating.
Maybe the example s of Ultramarine background hint to often to "following the codex to the letter".
Automatically Appended Next Post: KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are you guys talking about? Ultras and IF had a shootout? Is this in the background or a novel?
Codex Black Templars page 6.
Posted by AgeOfEgos above.
OK, look. Its not his fault he wasn't near Terra. It was Horus who sent him to the far reaches of the newly conquered Imperium. Everyone uses that argument, which really is foolish if you think it over. That also doesn't mean Horus was greater. It means the daemons who possessed him were smarter, when they clouded his own judjment on Davin. +1 for Guilliman! 
The IF version was somehow an act of "kamikaze".
