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Grey Templar wrote:when 2nd was changed to 3rd the rule sets were so radically different that the squats became essentially unplayable.

When 3rd ed rolled in, all of the existing armies became unplayable.

insaniak wrote:

Smacks wrote:In any case 2nd edition wasn't really under fire, since it did have Squats in it. 3rd edition was where GW suddenly dropped a bridge on them.

3rd is where they were finally officially removed... but 2nd edition was where the decision was actually made. They had a basic army list in the 'black codex' that came with the starter set, but had no models available throughout 2nd edition (other than leftovers that had been hanging around in stores since Rogue Trader) and never received a proper Codex.

Even Chaos had only a handful of RT models for most of 2nd edition. Until they finely got an overhaul about a year before the end, but now I'm digressing.

There is lots of overlapping of themes in 40k, and it doesn't cause a problem. The marine armies certainly overlap with each other, some of them even have almost identical niches. For example Raven Wing and White Scars both having the bike theme, Raven Guard and BA both having the jump pack assault theme. Yet they are all popular armies, all having models, rules and special characters out.

Then people turn around and say that Squats had to go because they are too similar to Space Wolves and the universe somehow isn't big enough? What really?

This argument doesn't make any sense to me. Even if Squats were similar to Space Wolves in character (which they weren't especially), that doesn't mean they had to go. I had Squat and Space Wolf armies during 2nd edition and didn't ever feel that either was redundant. Space Wolves can have the viking thing, I always saw squats more as Miners.

Grey Templar wrote:when 2nd was changed to 3rd the rule sets were so radically different that the squats became essentially unplayable.

2nd edition was a Fantesy in Space DnD-esk game.

3rd was more like the game we know today(a miniature battle)

The only thing that made Squats unplayable was not getting any rules. Also 2nd ed wasn't fantasy in space DnD-esque, Rogue Trader maybe. 2nd edition might not have been quite as simplified as 3rd edition, but it was otherwise identical in character and style to the modern game.

The Space Wolves = Squats arguement never made sense to me either.
Even in 2nd ed there were few, if any, similarities in the armies or play styles.
SW rarely used bikes, they were almost essential in a Squat army.
Squats could field heavy weapons as "troops", and had nearly no limit on how many they could field.

helgrenze wrote:The Space Wolves = Squats arguement never made sense to me either.

As I understand it, it was more down to looks than play style... By the time they came to redoing Squats, Space Wolves had already taken the 'Space Viking' motif.

SW rarely used bikes, they were almost essential in a Squat army.

...which contributed to their downfall, as the studio thought that the short Space Bikers motif made them more comical than they wanted them to be.

It's a short sighted approach, to be sure... surely they could have given them different, less comical looking vehicles if they wanted to go down that route. Although they were hampered somewhat by the technology of the time. Plastics weren't as widespread yet, and would have been pretty much required to make a viable vehicle-heavy army.

Less Space Viking, more Space Drunk.

Omegus wrote:Less Space Viking, more Space Drunk.

Yeah, with their wenching, and feasting, and riding wolves into battle... or were you talking about squats?

Smacks wrote:
Then people turn around and say that Squats had to go because they are too similar to Space Wolves and the universe somehow isn't big enough? What really?

This argument doesn't make any sense to me.

It shouldn't. Games Workshop isn't going to come out and say, "Yeah, look, this range of miniatures wasn't selling as well as we wanted, so, thanks for buying them, but we're removing support for them in order to try and make something that sells better."

GW's plethora of Space Marine codices has nothing at all to do with GW's love of expanding the game and providing variety and everything to do with their love of their customers' cash.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Omegus wrote:Less Space Viking, more Space Drunk.

Yeah, with their wenching, and feasting, and riding wolves into battle... or were you talking about squats?

Both. The Vilka Fenrika do not do any wenching, both races I'm sure feast in equal amounts, and there are no wolves on Fenris... they ride mutant initiates.

Omegus wrote:The Vilka Fenrika do not do any wenching,

Funny, that's not what their codex says... LOL

Page number?

A cursory examination has found one instance: the legend of Lukas the Trickster sharing a bed with a dozen women in one night, before "his elevation to the ranks of the Space Wolves."

Astartes are chemically sterile or flat out neutered. In any case, in the almost 20 years I've been in this hobby, I don't remember a single instance of an Astartes having anything remotely approaching a sex drive. In the HH novels, there are instances where an Astartes found a human female beautiful or pleasant to look at, but in the same sentence the very idea of intimacy or even attraction is outright rejected as impossible. Even the Noise Marines get their jollies off from massive explosions, wholesale slaughter and rendering people down into drugs, rather than any kind of "wenching".

Omegus wrote:Page number?

A cursory examination has found one instance: the legend of Lukas the Trickster sharing a bed with a dozen women in one night, before "his elevation to the ranks of the Space Wolves."

Astartes are chemically sterile or flat out neutered. In any case, in the almost 20 years I've been in this hobby, I don't remember a single instance of an Astartes having anything remotely approaching a sex drive. In the HH novels, there are instances where an Astartes found a human female beautiful or pleasant to look at, but in the same sentence the very idea of intimacy or even attraction is outright rejected as impossible. Even the Noise Marines get their jollies off from massive explosions, wholesale slaughter and rendering people down into drugs, rather than any kind of "wenching".

Stop and think: Space Marines are recruited as prepubescents. How would he have bedded a dozen women in one night before implantation? I interpreted it to mean he did it before becoming a full battlebrother.

Also: Page 20 - Svengar the Red makes a pass at the ladies and discovers that they aren't human.

How about you follow your own advice? Space Wolves are NOT recruited as prepubescents, they recruit proven and hardy warriors (usually last survivors of some major battle or some such).

I can just see it now... whole Space Wolf squads being lost because they got drunk and hit the brothels the night before, and couldn't concentrate during battle due to that burning, itching sensation from a wicked case of Catachan Crabs they caught from that girl that could do that thing with her knees.

Ragnar was clearly early pubescent.



you have to take into account that, in a warrior society like Fenris has, you are a man at age 12-13.

you could easily be a proven warrior by the age of 14-16. still undergoing puberty(which seems to be the primary requirement. that the initiate still be in, or shortly before, puberty)


the Space Wolf geneseed also seems to be different from all other geneseed.

its only compatable with Fenrisians. which could explain older recruits being taken.

Omegus wrote:How about you follow your own advice? Space Wolves are NOT recruited as prepubescents, they recruit proven and hardy warriors (usually last survivors of some major battle or some such).

I can just see it now... whole Space Wolf squads being lost because they got drunk and hit the brothels the night before, and couldn't concentrate during battle due to that burning, itching sensation from a wicked case of Catachan Crabs they caught from that girl that could do that thing with her knees.

It's a case of contradicting fluff: Creation of a Space Marine and Codex: Space Marines insist that the subjects have to be prepubescents for the implants to work turning the subjects into Space Marines over several years, but Codex: Space Wolves has them drinking geneseed (HUH?) and turning into Astartes apparently almost instantly. But supposedly other then the canis helix, Space Wolf geneseed is similar to other chapters geneseed.

They don't have to be prepubescent, multiple chapters recruit more adult specimen (BA is another example). The younger the better, but the process can still work. Perhaps the older age of most applicants is partially responsible for all the mutated failures wandering the wastes of Fenris.

Oh, and if "a casual pass" is your best evidence, your argument is tenuous indeed. Space Wolves retain a lot of their memories and personality, and are described frequently in the codex and novels as having a pretty adolescent sense of humor.

Svengar: " Daaaeem girl, you got yoself some tig ol' bitties! I bet the mortal boys back on Fenris would love to show you what-what!"
*whole company roars appreciatively with laughter*
*"girl" turns around, revealing that the tig ol' bitties are actually pig ol' blasma cannons*
Svengar: "CREEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!"

BaronIveagh wrote: Creation of a Space Marine and Codex: Space Marines insist that the subjects have to be prepubescents for the implants to work ...

No it doesn't. It just says they have to be young, before they become too mature to accept the implants.

Exactly what constitutes 'young' and 'too mature' are not explained.


Other fluff over the years has suggested that younger is generally better, with the process being more difficult the older the aspirant gets. Which would fit with the apparently high failure rate amongst Space Wolves.

And the drinking of the Canis Helix is just the first step in the process, and is stated to be unique to the Space Wolves... so no contradiction there. It simply prepares the way for the body to accept the rest of the process.

Omegus wrote:They don't have to be prepubescent, multiple chapters recruit more adult specimen (BA is another example). The younger the better, but the process can still work. Perhaps the older age of most applicants is partially responsible for all the mutated failures wandering the wastes of Fenris.

I don't have Codex: BA handy here to look at, but would not suggest using them as an example of "but *other chapter* can do it!' because, IIRC, didn't at one point in fluff they infuse a *gasp* woman with a tiny amount of their magic space vampire blood and give her some BA-like traits (absurd longevity, IIRC) in the process but not go all the way, in order to dodge the 'no female space marines' thing? Since the process the BA's use pretty much throws out the window the explanation of why there can't be such a thing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote: Creation of a Space Marine and Codex: Space Marines insist that the subjects have to be prepubescents for the implants to work ...

No it doesn't. It just says they have to be young, before they become too mature to accept the implants.

Exactly what constitutes 'young' and 'too mature' are not explained.


Other fluff over the years has suggested that younger is generally better, with the process being more difficult the older the aspirant gets. Which would fit with the apparently high failure rate amongst Space Wolves.

And the drinking of the Canis Helix is just the first step in the process, and is stated to be unique to the Space Wolves... so no contradiction there. It simply prepares the way for the body to accept the rest of the process.

Initial Implantation of the phase 1 implants takes place between the ages of 10 and 12. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother. A Marine usually joins the ranks between the ages of 16-18.

It's nice that some editions of the text actually put numbers on how old is too old, etc.

Hate to be rude, but I think we've gone slightly off topic...

Don't know about this vampire space lady you're talking about, but White Scars are another chapter that recruit older initiates. Some editions may outline the specific ages, but those are guidelines for ideal circumstances.

And yes, this is off topic. The topic was that Space Marines can't get boners.

How did a Squat thread turn into another space marine junk discussion???

The real question is how could it not?!

Omegus wrote:Don't know about this vampire space lady you're talking about, but White Scars are another chapter that recruit older initiates. Some editions may outline the specific ages, but those are guidelines for ideal circumstances.

As I said, it's a case of inconsistency in fluff, the most glaring example of which would be the BT, who in their codex, while they are structurally unique, they're actual implantation process is said to be similar to the Imperial Fists, who use the process outlined in Creation of a Space Marine (supposedly). And then you see them in Damnation Crusade selecting recruits that, if those are prepubescents, then Arnold Schwarzenegger hasn't reached puberty yet.

I just ignore the differences as Author Didn't Do the Research.

Grey Templar wrote:How did a Squat thread turn into another space marine junk discussion???

Oh, easy: Omegus insisted that SW can't go wenching, when their codex mentions it. His rebuttal to trot out the old song and dance about SM being impotent (which is different from Infertile, which fluff says they are) and mention section in Fulgrim where SM struggle with their sexuality and then sublimate it into violence (something that the Red Redemption also does without the benefits of being genetic supermen. In fact, come to think of it, in Warhammer 40k in general most sexuality seems to be immediately sublimated into violence by the characters. I suspect that GW is trying to steer clear of unacceptable sex by embracing acceptable violence where the authors can't gloss over it or simply imply that sex took place off camera. In a 40k in setting movie, they'd film decapitations in the same manner as cum shots in porn, IMHO)

Hah, so we're making this personal now? Fair enough, I'll be your huckleberry. Your one example of them wenching is extremely tenuous, and your dismissal of the authors is ignoring clearly established fluff. Space Wolves and others of their ilk have been recruiting proven warriors rather than children since their inception. - Personal attack removed by insaniak. Keep it civil. -

As for Fulgrim, sexuality comes up a total of three times in the whole novel: once where Bequa (a remembrancer) is trying to seduce Ostian (another remembrancer), once in a description of daemonettes, and again in the description of the rites of the Laer. Scribd and CTRL+F is your friend... or in this case, your enemy.

Guys, please stay on topic.

Exo-armor squats were downright adorable:


Sadly, their lack of knees made them unable to evade the encroaching Hive Fleets.

I always though the hive world fleet thing was sort of funny, since squats had a homeworld in the Armageddon sector...

But no 'nids ever showed up there!

On the OTHER topic, I'll open another thread so we can discuss it, and I recommend reading books over scanning through them with Cntl + f looking for the word 'sex'. You might find there's a little more to it then that.

Plus the Doomlance was an awesome weapon that has never been copied.

helgrenze wrote:Plus the Doomlance was an awesome weapon that has never been copied.

What's the Doomlance?

A Lance of Doom.

iproxtaco wrote:A Lance of Doom.

Precisely