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Omegus wrote:Midgets piss me off, that's why.

Yes, but Squats were Dwarves...

ChocolateGork wrote:Are the squats still legal to use?

As long as you use GW models and have them be a counts-as army, they're still legal.

Tau are 6-7 years old now right?

Its always possible the demigurg could be the next race.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dawi-Marine'Va wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:Are the squats still legal to use?

As long as you use GW models and have them be a counts-as army, they're still legal.

So you cant use 2nd ed rules ?

ChocolateGork wrote:Tau are 6-7 years old now right?

Its always possible the demigurg could be the next race.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dawi-Marine'Va wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:Are the squats still legal to use?

As long as you use GW models and have them be a counts-as army, they're still legal.

So you cant use 2nd ed rules ?

If your opponent also used second ed. rules, I suppose you could.

I'm not trying to be a douche but where about's does it say 2nd ed is invalid?

It doesn't need to say that 2nd ed rules are invalid... they just don't work, as they were written for a completely different ruleset.

You could adapt them, certainly... but it would take a lot of re-writing and re-statting to bring it them in line with the current game.

ChocolateGork wrote:I'm not trying to be a douche but where about's does it say 2nd ed is invalid?

Might have difficulty with the M characteristic. Could be a bit of a drawback.

ChocolateGork wrote:I'm not trying to be a douche but where about's does it say 2nd ed is invalid?

insaniak wrote:It doesn't need to say that 2nd ed rules are invalid... they just don't work, as they were written for a completely different ruleset.

You could adapt them, certainly... but it would take a lot of re-writing and re-statting to bring it them in line with the current game.

Ok, Sorry, didn't realize they had completely different stat lines in 2nd.

Grimtuff wrote:

Omegus wrote:Midgets piss me off, that's why.

Yes, but Squats were Dwarves...

Ah, and now we come to the heart of the matter.

Twas hubris that laid the Squat low. The official story is they were eaten by tyranids, but that's to cover up the reality of another Chaos incursion by Slaanesh annihilating yet another over-proud space civilization. We still retain some records of their blinding arrogance.





Sad, but a valuable lesson for all.

Kanluwen wrote:Nothing in my post said 'you can't have them'. It just implied that they were silly and made no sense as 40k switched from the 'silly' 40k to 'grimdark'

Thereby implying via your unilateral declaration of inherent 'silliness' that they cannot be had, as they are 'silly' by your own definition, a definition that does not allow for any modification for the 'Squat' concept. This in turn is amusing because there are other races that have gone through revamps of their style and character (Orks and Dark Eldar being two fairly good examples), yet you seem to be of the opinion that the same method of transformation (be it via the Demiurge or whatever) cannot happen with the 'Squat' concept, and that brings us back to "you can't have them".

You don't have to use the words Kan. A simple declaration of opinion as if it were fact on your part is enough to satisfy the requirements for the KCoA (the Kan Scale of Allowing-ness).

Omegus wrote:Midgets piss me off, that's why.

WOW thats bloody harsh.

'Short people got nothing to live for'

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Nothing in my post said 'you can't have them'. It just implied that they were silly and made no sense as 40k switched from the 'silly' 40k to 'grimdark'

Thereby implying via your unilateral declaration of inherent 'silliness' that they cannot be had, as they are 'silly' by your own definition, a definition that does not allow for any modification for the 'Squat' concept. This in turn is amusing because there are other races that have gone through revamps of their style and character (Orks and Dark Eldar being two fairly good examples), yet you seem to be of the opinion that the same method of transformation (be it via the Demiurge or whatever) cannot happen with the 'Squat' concept, and that brings us back to "you can't have them".

You really, really, really need to stop reading too much into my post.

And we're not talking about the Demiurg here. We're talking about Squats.
Demiurg, as it stands, are the 'revamped' Squats with a concept being brought more in line with 40k as it stands.

You don't have to use the words Kan. A simple declaration of opinion as if it were fact on your part is enough to satisfy the requirements for the KCoA (the Kan Scale of Allowing-ness).

God forbid someone not state their opinion on the internet!

Get off my back and go find someone else to bother.

insaniak wrote:It doesn't need to say that 2nd ed rules are invalid... they just don't work, as they were written for a completely different ruleset.

You could adapt them, certainly... but it would take a lot of re-writing and re-statting to bring it them in line with the current game.

Actually, restating them isn't that difficult. As I recall, they were: ws-4, bs-3, s-3, t-4, w-1, i-2, a-1, ld-9. That Initative of 2 would be a hell of an equalizer with most armies. (the actual statlines are burried somewhere in the Gallery, just too lazy to look them up.)
Weapons would be a mix of Guard and SM gear.
The only sticking point would be Save, though a 5 (mesh) or 4 (carapace) wouldn't be too far off. Exo suits could be equal to SM artificer armor, it wouldn't be much of a stretch.

Doing a major rewrite... yeah that would be rough. Tried that back when they were first "killed off" with some net friends..... it was ...... Ugly.

Ugly like... the Squats?

I've always hated the Squats and shed no tears to see them go. Now Space Marines on dragons, there's something I'd like to see make a comback.

ChocolateGork wrote:

insaniak wrote:It doesn't need to say that 2nd ed rules are invalid... they just don't work, as they were written for a completely different ruleset.

You could adapt them, certainly... but it would take a lot of re-writing and re-statting to bring it them in line with the current game.

Ok, Sorry, didn't realize they had completely different stat lines in 2nd.

The thing seems to be that you don't realize it was pretty much a different game in 2nd ed.

Consequently, it has to be said, in Epic squats were absolutely amazing. They had rock hard infantry and powerful, Titan-like superheavies such as;

Collossus with multiple battlecannons, doomsday cannons and attendant gyrocopter
Cyclops with a mounted Hellfury cannon - a huge starship weapon and Titan Killer
Overlord Airship
Goliath mega-cannon

They were a brilliant army to play. I seem to remember in an interview Jervis gave that the gulf between how 40k Squats worked (Very Badly) and how Epic Squats worked (Really Well) was large and partially lead to the decision to not re-do them for 40k.

ChocolateGork wrote:Tau are 6-7 years old now right?

Its always possible the demigurg could be the next race.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dawi-Marine'Va wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:Are the squats still legal to use?

As long as you use GW models and have them be a counts-as army, they're still legal.

So you cant use 2nd ed rules ?

you would have to find someone willing to play with the 2nd ed rules, and a copy of the rule book, and a codex for your opponents army, and the squat codex.


thats the easy part.

now you gotta learn the rules.



unless you arn't overly attached to your hair, I wouldn't reccomend you use any vehicles. the damage charts and targeting mechanisims will rape your mind.

Kanluwen wrote:
Get off my back and go find someone else to bother.

Female space marines are possible given the weird mutations of the Cursed Founding.


There, that should give you both something to attack so you can cool off instead of going after one another.

helgrenze wrote:Actually, restating them isn't that difficult. As I recall, they were: ws-4, bs-3, s-3, t-4, w-1, i-2, a-1, ld-9. That Initative of 2 would be a hell of an equalizer with most armies. (the actual statlines are burried somewhere in the Gallery, just too lazy to look them up.)

That's fine for the basic troops... but you need to revise pretty much everything else, as character and elite statlines were mostly revised downwards between 2nd ed and 3rd ed. And points costs were balanced around a 2000 point game that involved quite a few less models.

Remember Beastmen as an Imperial Guard unit? Or when Squats and Ratelings where common Guard units? Those were the days.

SJ

jeffersonian000 wrote:Remember Beastmen as an Imperial Guard unit? Or when Squats and Ratelings where common Guard units? Those were the days.

SJ

Hey they only did away with Beastmen with the latest edition of the Guard codex, and the death of chapter approved. =/

Kanluwen wrote:Get off my back and go find someone else to bother.

Samething can be said to you when you dictate to others what they can or cannot do.
Dont want to create a misunderstanding? easy , dont criticize about what others are allowed to have fun with or not.

Aslong as they arnt interpreting the rules wrong , why be so upright?

Wyrmalla wrote:

jeffersonian000 wrote:Remember Beastmen as an Imperial Guard unit? Or when Squats and Ratelings where common Guard units? Those were the days.

SJ

Hey they only did away with Beastmen with the latest edition of the Guard codex, and the death of chapter approved. =/

Beastmen were done away with awhile ago, not "the latest edition".

It's also worth noting that the Khornate Cult list in the Vraks books return Beastmen in there, and nothing's stopping you from using them as Conscripts or Penal Legion.

Kanluwen wrote:
Beastmen were done away with awhile ago, not "the latest edition".

It's also worth noting that the Khornate Cult list in the Vraks books return Beastmen in there, and nothing's stopping you from using them as Conscripts or Penal Legion.

Not exactly an IG list there Kan. These were loyalist beastmen. And that's like saying 'well, they removed the AC list, but you can build something like one if you don't mind having to take a squishy HQ and three squishy units because they're the only thing that counts for objectives now."

Something of a change of flavor there. Tossing Chapter approved (and the revisions to codex: IG) really irritated a lot of people that liked oddball lists.

And, BTW: beast men were done away with with the end of CHapter Approved: which means that, actually, yes, they were done away with in the latest edition. (Since they were in Chapter Approved's abhuman list for IG under 'Homo Sapiens Veritus')

This whole grimdark excuse is getting old its a load of B.S. one word......storyline....the storyline for several codex's/armybooks has changed drastically and sometines multiple times for many 40k and fantasy armies. Why didn't they just change the story. it is clear a stand alone army would do very well in the market....who said they have to be the empires best friends or even a goody goody race. grimdark excuse rubbish i say.


Bring them back as a stand alone army I say.

Squats are irrelevant as of right now.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Beastmen were done away with awhile ago, not "the latest edition".

It's also worth noting that the Khornate Cult list in the Vraks books return Beastmen in there, and nothing's stopping you from using them as Conscripts or Penal Legion.

Not exactly an IG list there Kan. These were loyalist beastmen. And that's like saying 'well, they removed the AC list, but you can build something like one if you don't mind having to take a squishy HQ and three squishy units because they're the only thing that counts for objectives now."

The Khornate Cult list is plenty acceptable as an IG list, Baron. If Space Wolves continually get used as a 'Betterized' Deathwing--it's fine to use a Khorne cult as loyalist Guard.

Something of a change of flavor there. Tossing Chapter approved (and the revisions to codex: IG) really irritated a lot of people that liked oddball lists.

And, BTW: beast men were done away with with the end of CHapter Approved: which means that, actually, yes, they were done away with in the latest edition. (Since they were in Chapter Approved's abhuman list for IG under 'Homo Sapiens Veritus')

I really hate to say it but good riddance to Chapter Approved. The ideas were good, but they were rarely executed well.

With that said: I lost my all Kasrkin(aka 3x Stormtrooper squads as Troops and 3x Stormtrooper Squads as Elites) list in the changeover from the doctrines book to the new one. You win some, you lose some. It sucks, but it's best to move on and try to either work up house rules for it or find a way to do 'counts as'.

Kanluwen wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Beastmen were done away with awhile ago, not "the latest edition".

It's also worth noting that the Khornate Cult list in the Vraks books return Beastmen in there, and nothing's stopping you from using them as Conscripts or Penal Legion.

Not exactly an IG list there Kan. These were loyalist beastmen. And that's like saying 'well, they removed the AC list, but you can build something like one if you don't mind having to take a squishy HQ and three squishy units because they're the only thing that counts for objectives now."

The Khornate Cult list is plenty acceptable as an IG list, Baron. If Space Wolves continually get used as a 'Betterized' Deathwing--it's fine to use a Khorne cult as loyalist Guard.

Something of a change of flavor there. Tossing Chapter approved (and the revisions to codex: IG) really irritated a lot of people that liked oddball lists.

And, BTW: beast men were done away with with the end of CHapter Approved: which means that, actually, yes, they were done away with in the latest edition. (Since they were in Chapter Approved's abhuman list for IG under 'Homo Sapiens Veritus')

I really hate to say it but good riddance to Chapter Approved. The ideas were good, but they were rarely executed well.

With that said: I lost my all Kasrkin(aka 3x Stormtrooper squads as Troops and 3x Stormtrooper Squads as Elites) list in the changeover from the doctrines book to the new one. You win some, you lose some. It sucks, but it's best to move on and try to either work up house rules for it or find a way to do 'counts as'.

I agree, the "chapter approved" concept in 2nd ed didn't work.