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Rune Stonegrinder wrote: Why didn't they just change the story.
We already covered that. They didn't 'just' change the story because they (supposedly) couldn't come up with an alternative that they liked enough to be worth the hassle.
Byte wrote:I agree, the "chapter approved" concept in 2nd ed didn't work.
I suspect you're getting 2nd and 3rd edition confused...
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Worglock wrote:Using your (terribly shoddy) reasoning, there should never be another Speds Mahreenz codex. Ever.
It's not his terribly shoddy reasoning. It's the terribly shoddy reasoning given by one of the members of the design studio who was involved in the decision to drop them... and has no real bearing on the studio's current design philosophy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/06/07 10:55:25
Remeber Kids: Chapter Approved was terrible half-cocked rules that made no sense, but Mat "The Butcher of Belgrade" Ward does nothing but write the best rules and fluff ever*.
*If you don't agree with this, Mat "The Beast of Boston" Ward will use his giant psychic abilities to make Kanluwen travel through space and time to carve his initials INTO YOUR HEART.
"Worglock is not wrong..." - Legoburner
Total Finecast Models purchased: 30.
Models with issues: 2
Models made good by Customer Service: 2
Finecast is... Fine... Get over it.
insaniak wrote:It doesn't need to say that 2nd ed rules are invalid... they just don't work, as they were written for a completely different ruleset.
You could adapt them, certainly... but it would take a lot of re-writing and re-statting to bring it them in line with the current game.
Wha?! You could say the same baout various other codexes...
htj wrote:
ChocolateGork wrote:I'm not trying to be a douche but where about's does it say 2nd ed is invalid?
Might have difficulty with the M characteristic. Could be a bit of a drawback.
No it wouldnt. Accept that all movement for the various unit types (Ie Infantry, Cavalry, Walker) are the same as they are across the other codexes. Adapt those rules which are not represented or have been re-imagined.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Nothing in my post said 'you can't have them'. It just implied that they were silly and made no sense as 40k switched from the 'silly' 40k to 'grimdark'
Thereby implying via your unilateral declaration of inherent 'silliness' that they cannot be had, as they are 'silly' by your own definition, a definition that does not allow for any modification for the 'Squat' concept. This in turn is amusing because there are other races that have gone through revamps of their style and character (Orks and Dark Eldar being two fairly good examples), yet you seem to be of the opinion that the same method of transformation (be it via the Demiurge or whatever) cannot happen with the 'Squat' concept, and that brings us back to "you can't have them".
You don't have to use the words Kan. A simple declaration of opinion as if it were fact on your part is enough to satisfy the requirements for the KCoA (the Kan Scale of Allowing-ness).
Mr H, you forgot:
Eldar
Necrons
Space Marines
IG Tyranids
Have all been re-imagined since 2nd Ed.
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Worglock wrote:Remeber Kids: Chapter Approved was terrible half-cocked rules that made no sense, but Mat "The Butcher of Belgrade" Ward does nothing but write the best rules and fluff ever*.
*If you don't agree with this, Mat "The Beast of Boston" Ward will use his giant psychic abilities to make Kanluwen travel through space and time to carve his initials INTO YOUR HEART.
Nonsense, he will just re-write your favourite Codex...
MWAHAHAHA...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/07 11:09:22
MikZor wrote:
We can't help that american D&D is pretty much daily life for us (Aussies)
Walking to shops, "i'll take a short cut through this bush", random encounter! Lizard with no legs.....
I kid Since i avoid bushlands that is But we're not that bad... are we?
AvatarForm wrote:Wha?! You could say the same baout various other codexes...
Er... yes? I would say the same about any of the 2nd edition codexes.
Anything written before 5th edition needs a certain amount of tweaking to fit the current rules, but from 3rd edition onwards the codexes were all designed for the same basic game, and with an ongoing design philosophy.
The key difference in that philosophy from 2nd edition being that characters and elite units were all less 'heroic'... Not as far above the regular troops, stat-wise. Marneus Calgar in his current incarnation has lower stats than a regular 2nd edition Marine Captain (but is a heck of a lot more expensive), and is more or less on par with a 2nd edition Imperial Guard Colonel. Hence the comment about needing to re-stat and re-point cost everything... just taking the 2nd edition Squat list and flinging it straight into 5th edition would result in a horribly unbalanced list by the standards of today's game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/06/07 11:34:17
ok, as one of the guys who simply loves count as armies... why not take a IG or SM army and turn it into squats? greenstuff beards are not that hard to make.
Worglock wrote:Remeber Kids: Chapter Approved was terrible half-cocked rules that made no sense, but Mat "The Butcher of Belgrade" Ward does nothing but write the best rules and fluff ever*.
Hey now. Hey. Hey. I said that Chapter Approved was full of good concepts--but the rules written were generally not good.
But that describes most of what Andy Chambers did, really. He was a good concept guy--but when it came to execution he was generally found wanting.
*If you don't agree with this, Mat "The Beast of Boston" Ward will use his giant psychic abilities to make Kanluwen travel through space and time to carve his initials INTO YOUR HEART.
...Not gonna lie, a GW sponsored psychadelic trip through space and time to rant against people who disagree with me?
Worglock wrote:Remeber Kids: Chapter Approved was terrible half-cocked rules that made no sense, but Mat "The Butcher of Belgrade" Ward does nothing but write the best rules and fluff ever*.
Hey now. Hey. Hey. I said that Chapter Approved was full of good concepts--but the rules written were generally not good.
But that describes most of what Andy Chambers did, really. He was a good concept guy--but when it came to execution he was generally found wanting.
Fun fact: Andy Chambers, former Ork Savant, could never defeat Squats, there were a couple of battle reports that proved this. Under his guidance, Third ed was crafted, in 3rd ed Squats were "eliminated"..... I don't believe in coincidence.
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
I don't really see why Squats needed to have a super distinctive "niche" .
Why is we can have 8 different variations on Space Marines, but we can't have short Imperial guard?
Squats were unique enough for me, and they were one of the few 2nd edition armies that felt really different to play. They didn't wet their pants and run away all the time like IG. They were also quite a competitive army because of all the points breaks they seemed to get for being slow (which was usually quite manageable).
Smacks wrote:I don't really see why Squats needed to have a super distinctive "niche" .
Why is we can have 8 different variations on Space Marines, but we can't have short Imperial guard?
We didn't have "8 variations on Space Marines" at that time.
Squats were unique enough for me, and they were one of the few 2nd edition armies that felt really different to play. They didn't wet their pants and run away all the time like IG. They were also quite a competitive army because of all the points breaks they seemed to get for being slow (which was usually quite manageable).
Like has been said: Squats on the tabletop for 40k were a mix of Marines and Guard, with no particular defining attributes.
In Epic, that was an entirely different story. But Epic was not the direction they wanted to go with Squats and thusly they got axed.
Smacks wrote:I don't really see why Squats needed to have a super distinctive "niche" .
Why is we can have 8 different variations on Space Marines, but we can't have short Imperial guard?
We didn't have "8 variations on Space Marines" at that time.
IIRC, in 2nd ed there were:
Ultra-same marines
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Imp Fists
Space Wolves
CSM
Not quite 8, but near enough.
MikZor wrote:
We can't help that american D&D is pretty much daily life for us (Aussies)
Walking to shops, "i'll take a short cut through this bush", random encounter! Lizard with no legs.....
I kid Since i avoid bushlands that is But we're not that bad... are we?
for me, space wolves are the perfect for making space dwarfs, there are a couple of big bearded ones, and lets be serious, those hammers space marines uses, are dwarf trade mark weapons.
Angels of Death wasn't one book, it was two codex books under one cover. It had two separate backgrounds, separate Special Characters, separate army lists, even separate colour pages. The only thing that was shared was some of the early fluff about the creation of marines, and the explanation for generic stuff like Rhinos (which was largely copypasta from Codex Ultramarines).
In any case 2nd edition wasn't really under fire, since it did have Squats in it. 3rd edition was where GW suddenly dropped a bridge on them.
In any case we ended up with lots of Marine Armies which weren't exactly a million miles from each other in terms of uniqueness.
Blue Marines
Red Marines
Green Marines
Black Marines
Wolf Marines
Silver Marines
Evil Marines
And of course lets not forget, Lady Marines.
And yet Squats aren't unique enough? I don't really see the logic in that.
As I recall the "evil Marines" were subdivided as well... basically:
sick marines
metal marines
blood marines
magic marines.....
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
Smacks wrote:In any case 2nd edition wasn't really under fire, since it did have Squats in it. 3rd edition was where GW suddenly dropped a bridge on them.
3rd is where they were finally officially removed... but 2nd edition was where the decision was actually made. They had a basic army list in the 'black codex' that came with the starter set, but had no models available throughout 2nd edition (other than leftovers that had been hanging around in stores since Rogue Trader) and never received a proper Codex.
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helgrenze wrote:As I recall the "evil Marines" were subdivided as well... basically:
sick marines
metal marines
blood marines
magic marines.....
They've always been a single codex. You just had options to create themed lists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/08 23:50:01
Smacks wrote:In any case 2nd edition wasn't really under fire, since it did have Squats in it. 3rd edition was where GW suddenly dropped a bridge on them.
3rd is where they were finally officially removed... but 2nd edition was where the decision was actually made. They had a basic army list in the 'black codex' that came with the starter set, but had no models available throughout 2nd edition (other than leftovers that had been hanging around in stores since Rogue Trader) and never received a proper Codex.
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helgrenze wrote:As I recall the "evil Marines" were subdivided as well... basically:
sick marines
metal marines
blood marines
magic marines.....
They've always been a single codex. You just had options to create themed lists.
By this line of logic, anything that didn't have a "proper Codex" dosn't count as being an actual army then. Thus any "themed" army, despite its outward look and play style is irrelevent.
So Khorne Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Plague Marines, Iron Warriors, and all are not "Real armies"?
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
helgrenze wrote:By this line of logic, anything that didn't have a "proper Codex" dosn't count as being an actual army then.
Only if you completely ignore the rest of my post.
The point wasn't just that Squats didn't have a proper codex. The point was that they weren't supported at all in 2nd edition aside from being included in the initial game release. They never received an actual codex because the decision was made to drop them instead of giving them a codex.
So Khorne Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Plague Marines, Iron Warriors, and all are not "Real armies"?
They were all options within the Chaos Space Marine army list. Beyond that, I'm not really sure what you're getting at.
Feliw wrote:for me, space wolves are the perfect for making space dwarfs, there are a couple of big bearded ones, and lets be serious, those hammers space marines uses, are dwarf trade mark weapons.
What country is your flag? i cant help notice how cool it looks @_@
helgrenze wrote:By this line of logic, anything that didn't have a "proper Codex" dosn't count as being an actual army then.
Only if you completely ignore the rest of my post.
The point wasn't just that Squats didn't have a proper codex. The point was that they weren't supported at all in 2nd edition aside from being included in the initial game release. They never received an actual codex because the decision was made to drop them instead of giving them a codex.
So Khorne Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Plague Marines, Iron Warriors, and all are not "Real armies"?
They were all options within the Chaos Space Marine army list. Beyond that, I'm not really sure what you're getting at.
The point is, that whether they had a seperate codex or not, there are maybe a dozen variations on "Space Marine" most of which come down to background or "fluff", and not really any true difference in the actual Basic elements of the army. Most of the "Space Marine" armies are nothing more than "options" and paint scheme.
and No, Squats didn't get a "proper codex" even though one was confirmed to be planned and was rumored to be "in the works". Even the "official" reasons suggest a lack of creativity more than a lack of interest.
Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
the squats were basically never updated and were excluded from all fluff that was written after that point.
when 2nd was changed to 3rd the rule sets were so radically different that the squats became essentially unplayable.
2nd edition was a Fantesy in Space DnD-esk game.
3rd was more like the game we know today(a miniature battle)
it was more of obselesence by game mechanic then by force.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
