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RogalDorn69 wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

RogalDorn69 wrote:But if you wanted your army painted quick with no effort, I dont care. But don’t use it and act like a king, just out of respect for people that try a little harder,

...

Seriously?

What a load of gak. Method means nothing. The end results are the only thing that matters. If the final product is something you're happy with, then how you got to that point is completely irrelevant.

think this out
to save a country (CountryA) the METHOD you could use is killing another (Country B), OR save country A by coming to an agrement with country B, But according to you it dosnt matter because in the end Country A is safe even though one way means killing thousands of people...
Relation,
The first way is easier (drop a nuke, Army Painter) and the other requiers some effort ( come to an agrement, paint by hand) and also this way both Countries are safe, unlike the first method?...
Think of how many more wars there would be if people were ignorant like you, Method is EVERYTHING

Congrats, that is the worst analogy I have ever had the pleasure of reading.

RogalDorn69 wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

RogalDorn69 wrote:But if you wanted your army painted quick with no effort, I dont care. But don’t use it and act like a king, just out of respect for people that try a little harder,

...

Seriously?

What a load of gak. Method means nothing. The end results are the only thing that matters. If the final product is something you're happy with, then how you got to that point is completely irrelevant.

think this out
to save a country (CountryA) the METHOD you could use is killing another (Country B), OR save country A by coming to an agrement with country B, But according to you it dosnt matter because in the end Country A is safe even though one way means killing thousands of people...
Relation,
The first way is easier (drop a nuke, Army Painter) and the other requiers some effort ( come to an agrement, paint by hand) and also this way both Countries are safe, unlike the first method?...
Think of how many more wars there would be if people were ignorant like you, Method is EVERYTHING

Okay, think this out.

It doesn't matter. It's toy soldiers.

Saying that the techniques by which you paint your models doesn't matter as long as you get a good result is not advocating a 'ends justify the means' approach to life, or government foreign policy.

Tell me, what are the dangers or someone choosing a different technique to another to get a better result? Will people die? Will an atomic bomb explode? Will in fact there be any consequences AT ALL?

This post is very special, rarely do you see something taken to this level of stupid hyperbole.

I would like to put a few points out there.

1) Dipping does have room for technique. Not to the same degree as NMM or shading, but whether dipped or brush-dipped, the amount of dip that you leave on, how it is applied and how tastefully it is removed are all techniques.

2) Many non-dippers seem hung up on the fact that dipping is easier than other methods. That doesn't matter to dippers. Many of us don't like to paint that much. We are impresseed with the fine results of a non-dipper, but we aren't more impressed with you as a person because of the amount of effort you put in. We know it's easy and we see it's ease as a virtue, not as a stumbling block.

3) Some non-dippers focus on the fact that dipping is faster, as though taking more time is necessarily a virtue. That's a pretty big stretch. For starters, you have no way of telling how much free time a dipper has to paint, and you don't know what other aspects (converting, playing, etc) we do spend time on.

In the end, it often comes down to letting judgment of a technique. (i.e. it's not how I would do it) become judgement of a person (lazy, don't care, shouldn't be proud of, etc.). It's a fine line, but it gets stepped over all too often in discussions like these.

For the record, I don't like the painting process that much (I much prefer converting and terrain building), am slow at it, don't have alot of hobby time to begin with and I am very proud of the solid tabletop quality results I get with dipping.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/387792.page

@ Howard A Treesong.... i just wanted to say that i love your post. AWSOME exhalt like 5000 times. that really is one of the most full of self, ignorant and logically incongruent analogy ever posted ever anywhere. I challenge Dakka to come up with a more rediculouse statement.

Ahhh. since this thread has achieved 5 pages i can see that the illogical haters of dip etc have arrisen. So many good points have been made about...
1) is using a spray paint or a airbrush cheating
2) is using wash cheating
3) is using premade paints cheating
etc. etc. None of the arguments made against using dip make any sence whatsoever. They are mostly composed of of reasons why induviduals dont use those techniques themselves and them trying to justify why they feel like other people should not use those techniques. Honestly, if you dont like something then dont do it ok. simple as that. Im a chef. I use premade stock when i make a quick sauce. It is widely available and it is adequate for most uses outside of a 4 star resturant (guess what, those four star resturaunts probably sneak a little premade stock into their food on occasion and lie about it ). Why bother spending tediouse hours on something that makes a negligible difference. Unless you want to be the absolute best painter in the whole world then i say do whatever you want to speed the process. It is your army. You do what you like with it. Anyone else who tries to tell you how you should be doing things should just mind their own buisness. After all. A painted army is better than a plastic or primer colored army any day.

Eh, the way I see it, I can paint an army in the time it takes some people to paint one unit. I am fine with that. Furthermore I am quite proud in how they came out. In fact I enjoy the challenge of making a dipped army look really good.

Come at me bro!

Dorksim wrote:Eh, the way I see it, I can paint an army in the time it takes some people to paint one unit. I am fine with that. Furthermore I am quite proud in how they came out. In fact I enjoy the challenge of making a dipped army look really good.

Come at me bro!

there you have it folks. this is what all the haters are worked up about. You painted your army in 1/10th the time it took them and it looks pretty good. from anywhere but up close it looks awsome. You have pride in your army. You are happy and so are all the people who you face except the arrogant elitests who judge a person by how they paint their toy soldiers. I dipped my nids army. Took a month to complete several thousand points worth of nids. They look pretty good. Lots of peeps look at them and comment about how cool they look. One kid got upset and said something about how my army was so simple to paint it really bummed him out because he spent so long on his. Well gang. his looked crappy by comparison but rather than be a jerk i assured him that his army looked fine and not to worry about it. Really .... its his toy soldiers. Everything isnt a contest in life. I play 40k to have fun, to model. ITs MY HOBBY. I get to do it any way i like.

Bookwrack wrote:

RogalDorn69 wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

RogalDorn69 wrote:But if you wanted your army painted quick with no effort, I dont care. But don’t use it and act like a king, just out of respect for people that try a little harder,

...

Seriously?

What a load of gak. Method means nothing. The end results are the only thing that matters. If the final product is something you're happy with, then how you got to that point is completely irrelevant.

think this out
to save a country (CountryA) the METHOD you could use is killing another (Country B), OR save country A by coming to an agrement with country B, But according to you it dosnt matter because in the end Country A is safe even though one way means killing thousands of people...
Relation,
The first way is easier (drop a nuke, Army Painter) and the other requiers some effort ( come to an agrement, paint by hand) and also this way both Countries are safe, unlike the first method?...
Think of how many more wars there would be if people were ignorant like you, Method is EVERYTHING

Dakka dakka - where painting the wrong way costs LIVES!

You're also flat out wrong, method means nothing, but if you have to try so hard to make yourself feel superior about how paint your man-dollies, have at it.

QFT.

I'll see your war example and raise you. Calligraphy looks much better than something that is typed on the computer. How about all future dakka posts be written in calligraphy, scanned into the computer and then posted as a picture? If method is much more important than the outcome than this is how i propose you post from now on. Easy is sometimes the better option. With limited time i would much rather type this post and dip an entire 'nid army than mail this answer to your home and hand paint 200+ hormagaunts.

I looked through the Dip haters galleries here and none of them were fielding figs that were all that great. Honestly one dip-hater had a big fat mold line on the side of his thunderhammer and he was calling dip users lazy for using dip. How about spending the time to scratch off that big fat mold line. That dosnt take any skill really at all to just scratch off some plastic. Some of the other haters didnt drill out the barrel on their bolters etc. How hard is that dip haters.

I have a theory. Dip haters are the same people that hated on kids who didnt listen to the kind of music that they liked, didnt like the same video games. they were always a bunch of egomananical, elitests that think they are right for X illogical reason.

RogalDorn69 wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

RogalDorn69 wrote:But if you wanted your army painted quick with no effort, I dont care. But don’t use it and act like a king, just out of respect for people that try a little harder,

...

Seriously?

What a load of gak. Method means nothing. The end results are the only thing that matters. If the final product is something you're happy with, then how you got to that point is completely irrelevant.

think this out
to save a country (CountryA) the METHOD you could use is killing another (Country B), OR save country A by coming to an agrement with country B, But according to you it dosnt matter because in the end Country A is safe even though one way means killing thousands of people...
Relation,
The first way is easier (drop a nuke, Army Painter) and the other requiers some effort ( come to an agrement, paint by hand) and also this way both Countries are safe, unlike the first method?...
Think of how many more wars there would be if people were ignorant like you, Method is EVERYTHING

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU

Everyone grab your popcorn and sit back and watch this thread, which contains some of the most high horse haters on dakka, making fools of themselves by telling those who dip/wash models that while they think it's okay that you use that technique, you are lazy and are failing at your hobby.

Yeah, wow. I could care less how you paint your army. So what if you take 3 years to paint one guy and i paint three armies in the same time. If your going to get pissy about it, dip your freakin little toy men and save yourself some time. There. BOOM, i just solved your problem.The end result and a good looking army is ALL that matters. But as the saying goes, haters gonna hate. Thats what they do.
"Dakka dakka - where painting the wrong way costs LIVES!" HAHA, This almost made me spit wheat beer on my laptop.

I personally find it funny the switching from person to person's opinions. It goes from, "There is no real fairness and its all about how you derive your enjoyment." to "Lol newfag 12 year old is stoopid!!1!."

Personally I enjoy the slow progress of painting models individually and don't like the Quickshade product(mine was gloopy and hard to use)

Ouch, well, after the beating RogalDorn69 has taken, I don't think we're going to be seeing him in this thread again. However, to make a further point of why his POV fails so hard, here's a picture example: .

To paint these chaps, I went basecoat>wash>drybrush>wash>drybrush>highlight. Did them all in an evening, and since my goal is to have a squad that looks good on the tabletop, they're perfect. Without washes, I could've blended and layered the paint to get the exact same final appearance, but taken 5 or 6 times as long to complete. Does that mean at the end of the day, the latter method would've given me _better_ models?

Nope, not by any objective evaluation, and there is certainly no moral high road by going slower. Since this thread is already burdened with horrible analogies, I'll make my own belabored contribution. Some of the attitudes here really reek of unmitigated snobbery, like if when building a wall, they'd laud the guy who hand carried one brick at a time, and look down their nose at the guy who used a wheel barrow to carry an entire load of them. At the end of the day, you've got the exact same wall, but one of them took a heck of a lot longer to build at no benefit to anyone.

Tools of the trade.

All iis fair!The end result is the key.

Nice work. I agree with you. I have a target level of acceptable quality and then try to find the fastest way of getting there.

Dippers in my experience just want a painted army to put on the table. With Dipping or even just washes growing in popularity I play against fewer and fewer primer armies. I see this as a positive thing for our Hobby. The day a dipped model wins a Demon I'll join the elitist crowd with my head in the sand. Other than that clearly dippers are into the playing side of the hobby rather than the painting side.

I am just saying, you got to respect armies that are painted without shortcuts

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:I am just saying, you got to respect armies that are painted without shortcuts

Why? Respect should come from how the model looks at the end, not what path it takes to get there.

Should I respect a crap paint job that took 10 hours?

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:I am just saying, you got to respect armies that are painted without shortcuts

Washing and drybrushing are shortcuts, no?

No because it's crap. But if the painter put a lot of pride and effort in the model then it should be respected.

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:No because it's crap. But if the painter put a lot of pride and effort in the model then it should be respected.

That doesn't make sense; as someone could put pride and effort into something and still not be up to someone else's standards. And someone who uses a dip or wash for the last step of shading on their models might put a lot of effort and pride into it as well.

AustonT wrote: With Dipping or even just washes growing in popularity I play against fewer and fewer primer armies. I see this as a positive thing for our Hobby. The day a dipped model wins a Demon I'll join the elitist crowd with my head in the sand.

Very much agree.
There's so much upainted metal and plastic at my FLGS, I'd be nothing but pleased to see lots of dipped armies

AustonT wrote:Dippers in my experience just want a painted army to put on the table...
...Other than that clearly dippers are into the playing side of the hobby rather than the painting side.

Dissagree. I see what you're saying, but there are other reasons someone might dip besides being primarily into the playing side. For myself, I dip because I most enjoy the converting and assembling side of the hobby (though I do enjoy playing). I know folks who love to paint but dip because they like the effect or they have limited time and want to paint lots of different figures.

My 2 cents...

I draw as a hobby (yes, a hobby for my hobby). Mostly sketchy stuff. My sketchpad? Wal*Mart Special. My pencils? Same. Paints? Scanner? Tools? Everything I use was bought for bargain basement prices (or close to it. Didn't skimp too much on my scanner). Am I good? Some say so. Am I great? Probably not. Am I professional-grade? Almost assuredly not. Do I enjoy it and take pride in it? Immensely.
Does it make me lazy or cheap or lame compared to someone that spent thousands of dollars at an art store for the top of the line supplies? I'd like to think not (well, maybe the cheap bit). I've seen all too many artists out there go for the best tools without having a grasp on the concepts of how to use them.

Now, pulling this back to the topic at hand. I use washes and drybrushing. I blend my own colors on occasion. (Why is there no GW pink?!) Are the washes considered a shortcut because I'm not painting the shadows with dark paints directly? And if it is, then would Reaper/Vallejo paints be considered a shortcut also because I don't have to mix 1 part dark red with 1 part black to get my darker dark red?

Am I ever going to win a Golden Demon? Probably not. Do I have fun? Of course! Am I proud of what I've done? Damn right I am!
I don't need other people telling me the "right" way to paint my little soldiers any more than I need someone telling me the "right" army list to have. If there was only one way, then there wouldn't be choices, would there?

There's a lot of elitism in this thread. I'm getting a feeling of "if you can't use the techniques like the big dogs, then don't bother trying" around here sometimes. This kind of mentality is flawed, as it keeps new painters away and discourages them from ever trying anything... Plus, I'm sure that the elitists out there didn't come from the womb knowing how to do NMMs and edge highlighting.

JustPlainJim wrote: I'm sure that the elitists out there didn't come from the womb knowing how to do NMMs and edge highlighting.

None of the elitists even know where to start with NMM lol. Most of the folks who talk down about others using washes/dips are not very good themselves.

Dark Angels Champ-Master wrote:I am just saying, you got to respect armies that are painted without shortcuts

No you don't, no more than you got to 'respect' the guy building a wall who carries the bricks by hand. instead of using a wheelbarrow.

We're talking about tools. I'm building a table right now. I'm using a table saw for cutting, and a power drill for making guide holes, as well as using it to make the guide for, and screw in the two dozen screws securing the hinge that attaches the heavy leaf. If you decide to do the exact same thing, but use a hand saw, manual drill, and a screw driver, it won't make your table better, or deem you any more worthy of 'respect.' It just means your wrists will be a lot more tired at the end of the day. If you have a good looking mini at the end of the day, than it doesn't matter if you dipped, dry brushed, or doodles, you're model is just as good and you're just as deserving of 'respect' as the guy who did just as good of a job, but got their by taking a week painting the model one water thin paint layer at a time..

Respect+Internet?

WTF?

Anyways, point is, a well painted army is a well painted army. When I see something I like I tell the person who did it and ask how they achieved certain effects.

If someone tells me "dipping", hell who cares? Yeah, I know it must have taken less time to achieve than full wet blending, and you can tell the difference in the overall quality, but at the end of the day at least it's painted.

I'm going to put money down on a lot of people who hate on dipping (this thread, others, other boards etc) and say that they play with a bunch of gray plastic (of which I'm guilty myself to some extent, so I'm not hating on that either).

i have started dipping armies simply because i dont have time any more to paint each model.

it gives me a decent result, and with my other techniques i use i get maybe 75% of total paint score if one is given. i'm not a good enough painter to win best painted, but i do want most of the points for painting. so i paint 3+ colors, dip and base the minisatures nicely.

Given the way GW push the hoard armies it makes sense to dip them.

Practice the painting techniques on the characters. No one has to dip everything or try to paint every last figure to perfection, you do the regiments quickly and spend time on the special stuff.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the elitists that are leading the attack on the dipping technique aren't actually that good at painting themselves. But I'll admit, I haven't done the research to check that, it's just a suspicion.

You have two types of people: Those that like to paint, and those that don't.

Those that don't like to paint are more likely to use the dipping method. And why not? It's easy and lets them get their painted minis to the 7-8 range in terms of looks. (1-10 scale.) They won't improve their painting skills much, but who cares? It's not their goal, and they are most likely not looking to win any painting awards. They just want to plop toy soldiers down on the table and have fun.

Those that do like to paint will instead choose to paint their models by hand, instead of dipping (most of the time - time permitting.) As they continue to paint, they will get better, and their overall paint jobs will look better. At first, the results will be lower than the "dipping" method, which can be really disheartening. But if you keep up at it, if you keep painting, you will get better, and keep learning more techniques (OSL, NMM, etc), to the point where suddenly your stuff comes out looking nicer than dipped models.

The table analogy someone brought up earlier was pretty good. No craftsman is going to, on his first try, make an outstanding looking table. Doesn't happen. It looks somewhere between acceptable and gak. But as he continues to ply the trade, as he continues to build tables and learn new techniques, then eventually he can make a table that will be leaps and bounds better than anything someone could pick up at a store.

But dipping as a medium is not cheating, not in the sense you are talking about. If anything, dipping is cheating only in the sense that it cheats you out of the practice and skill you would have gained had you painted the model by hand. Which, most people probably couldn't care less about, and that's fine. Keep practicing, and eventually you'll have better painted miniatures. Just don't get salty that you're not there yet, instead focus on learning and improving.

Personally? I'll skip the dipping and paint everything by hand using layering techniques, and any others I can pick up on the way. Am I to the point where my paint jobs match/are better than dipping? Who knows, probably not. Is it frustrating? Sure. But I know I'll be able to produce better results, and a better painted army, one day, than someone who just dipped. Though, when I'm on my 30th termagant, with another 30-40 to go (not to mention gargoyles, hormagaunts, genestealers, etc), ask me again how I feel about dipping. May have changed my mind by then, if I haven't gone insane. Stupid bugs.

You paint the way that gives the result you want. If you're jealous that others get their armies painted quickly, do it the same way yourself. What's to be unfair?

Peons! Not only should you paint and shade everything by hand, but you should make your own brushes from bone and horse hair, and go dig up minerals yourself and grind your own pigment!

Except for when you need red. Then it is perfectly permissible to use your own blood. In fact, it is encouraged.