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Please calm down and post in a less confrontational manner.

There's no need for you to be as rude as you've been here and earlier in the thread.

reds8n wrote:Please calm down and post in a less confrontational manner.

There's no need for you to be as rude as you've been here and earlier in the thread.

Understood and sorry about that. I sometimes get ahead of myself and get frustrated.

dbsamurai wrote:They give the imperial guardsmen crap because they have to equip quadrillions of soldiers so they give them cheap reliable crap because it keeps costs down in the long run.

Accurate Lasshot can kill Space Marine in 1 hit, Fire Warrior to ( Gaunt Ghost ). Your point is invalid. Next...

Brother Coa wrote:

dbsamurai wrote:They give the imperial guardsmen crap because they have to equip quadrillions of soldiers so they give them cheap reliable crap because it keeps costs down in the long run.

Accurate Lasshot can kill Space Marine in 1 hit, Fire Warrior to ( Gaunt Ghost ). Your point is invalid. Next...

What? can you rephrase your post cause I don't get it except things here and there.

I believe he's saying that an accurate lasgun shot can kill a Marine in one hit, as has been proven from Fire Warrior all the way up through Gaunt's Ghosts.

It's at least partially correct; an insanely accurate/very lucky lasgun shot into the soft armor of the throat or the grille of the helmet could kill a Space Marine.

It could also not.

Even if it punches through the armor's weak point, if it hits a bionic or the space marine's hardened body absorbs it, then the marine won't die.

Tadashi wrote:Even if it punches through the armor's weak point, if it hits a bionic or the space marine's hardened body absorbs it, then the marine won't die.

It was probably on high power. Anytime a lasgun dose soothing it's not really meant to do you can blame it on the high power setting.

nomotog wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Even if it punches through the armor's weak point, if it hits a bionic or the space marine's hardened body absorbs it, then the marine won't die.

It was probably on high power. Anytime a lasgun dose soothing it's not really meant to do you can blame it on the high power setting.

Is this a problem?

PresidentOfAsia wrote:I heard that the majority of the Imperial Guard will never see a single Ork, Eldar, Space Marine, Chaos Space Marine in their entire life and that they will spend most of their time fighting rebellions; is that true?

If so, then where the hell do ideas such as "most guardsmen will not live past 3 hours on the battlefield" come from? I'm pretty sure that their 4 months of training(the USMC has the same amount of training) will fare well against a bunch of rebel militas and traitor PDFs

Also don't Guardsmen units such as the Tanith First and Only, Elysian Drop Troops and the Harkoni Warhawks value quality over quantity

I don't think they'd hardly ever see any of those things, since their 'tours' are relatively small time periods (Imagine a guardsman serves ten years. I doubt anything important happens on their planet or in their section in ten years).

Most guardsmen are well trained and would be the equivalent of rangers, I think. Valor and heroism are not rare amongst the elysians, tanith and even catachans... So that would lead me to believe that PDF regiments are somewhere between conscripts and guardsmen. Four months of training? That seems like not nearly enough.

nomotog wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Even if it punches through the armor's weak point, if it hits a bionic or the space marine's hardened body absorbs it, then the marine won't die.

It was probably on high power. Anytime a lasgun dose soothing it's not really meant to do you can blame it on the high power setting.

Not really. Even ordinary lasguns can punch through the joints of power armor, or the eye visors.

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Even if it punches through the armor's weak point, if it hits a bionic or the space marine's hardened body absorbs it, then the marine won't die.

It was probably on high power. Anytime a lasgun dose soothing it's not really meant to do you can blame it on the high power setting.

Not really. Even ordinary lasguns can punch through the joints of power armor, or the eye visors.

Lasgun shot on High Power hit on soft spot can tear Astartes limb, a shot directly into the eye socket can kill him instantly.

Yes, I know, but I was referring to the post that everytime a lasgun does something unexpected, it always assumes the lasgun was firing a 'hot-shot'.

Then I will ask next question: when was the last time you saw a single Lasgun in action?
I always see at least 10 - 20 of them.

A concentrated lasgun volley will tear through anything...I get your point.

I was reading the guard codex on Friday and I came across this little tidbit for all those who seem to think that the imperium does not consider guardsmen to be completely expendable.

On page 31 under regimental advisers specifically the paragraph about the master of ordinance.

Attempts by company commanders to call down close-ranged artillery fire can result in disastrous casualties in the imperial guard. Whilst the loss of life is repeatable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.

There you go, your average imperial guardsmen is worth less than an artillery shell in the eyes of the Munotorum.

The equipment and training the guard receives is the very carefully balanced cost vs effectiveness ratio calculated by the administratium to ensure that they get the absolute best bang for buck. Of course this means that the guard get what is essentially the bare minimum and sent to die, because that is the most cost effective.

(Interesting note on Guard flack armor, It actually can stop rounds from ork sluggas and shootas. Not saying their armor is good, its more a case of how bad Ork guns are, of course in comparison even the paltry 6+ armor save of the orks is enough to block a las rifle. )

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
There you go, your average imperial guardsmen is worth less than an artillery shell in the eyes of the Munotorum.

So?
What is the cost to train one Navy SEAL and what is the cost of one F-22 Raptor?
What is the cost to train one US Marine and what si the cost to build one M1 Abrams?
What is the cost of training 1000 US army men and what is the cost of one Nuclear Missile?

Of course gear and ammo will be always be more worth then infantry. But that doesn't mean that infantry is bad quality compared to it. ( realistically, every solder on foot can destroy a tank if he get to close ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:I was reading the guard codex on Friday and I came across this little tidbit for all those who seem to think that the imperium does not consider Guardsmen to be completely expendable.

They are not and here is why: Imperium will see that Guardsman win one campaign so that they can send them immediately to the next front. They can't send force that they lost so they tell their commanders to "look out for his men" because they will need them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
(Interesting note on Guard flack armor, It actually can stop rounds from ork sluggas and shootas. Not saying their armor is good, its more a case of how bad Ork guns are, of course in comparison even the paltry 6+ armor save of the orks is enough to block a las rifle. )

Tell that to Daemon Prince that got killed by volley of Las fire.

Brother Coa wrote:
Tell that to Daemon Prince that got killed by volley of Las fire.

The galaxy has been at unending, constant war for 10,000 years in 40K.

That means the probability that a kitten has killed a Bloodthirster at some point is nearly 1.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:I was reading the guard codex on Friday and I came across this little tidbit for all those who seem to think that the imperium does not consider guardsmen to be completely expendable.

On page 31 under regimental advisers specifically the paragraph about the master of ordinance.

Attempts by company commanders to call down close-ranged artillery fire can result in disastrous casualties in the imperial guard. Whilst the loss of life is repeatable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.

There you go, your average imperial guardsmen is worth less than an artillery shell in the eyes of the Munotorum.

The equipment and training the guard receives is the very carefully balanced cost vs effectiveness ratio calculated by the administratium to ensure that they get the absolute best bang for buck. Of course this means that the guard get what is essentially the bare minimum and sent to die, because that is the most cost effective.

(Interesting note on Guard flack armor, It actually can stop rounds from ork sluggas and shootas. Not saying their armor is good, its more a case of how bad Ork guns are, of course in comparison even the paltry 6+ armor save of the orks is enough to block a las rifle. )

And so what? Your post doesn't give us some great revelation that we don't already know. Read this very carefully: Just because the Munitorum say something doesn't mean its always followed. The live of one guardsmen is irrelevant but wasting their lives to achieve nothing is a waste. The Guard are not send of to die, they are sent of to fight, they die cause its war and people die in war.

Really, lets see you try and arm uncounted trillions of IG and other IG units with all the best equipment without going bankrupt.

And so what if one Ork has a 6+ armor save? In the 40k fluff Lasguns are fired alongside other weapons cause IG are a combined arms force. Flak armor is good enough for its job and its not like the IG don't add to that armor with whatever they can get.

Of course gear and ammo will be always be more worth then infantry. But that doesn't mean that infantry is bad quality compared to it. ( realistically, every solder on foot can destroy a tank if he get to close ).

Once-upon-a-time, perhaps, but modern battletanks now mount anti-personnel mines to their hulls for the event that infantry gets "too close". They then get a Claymore mine to the face for getting "too close".

Realistically speaking, the last thing you want to do as an infantryman is run into a tank. Aircraft you can hide from, and if it bombs your AO, you're most likely going to die anyway, so it doesn't matter. Other infantry you can kill, evade, feint, flank, whatever. Tanks? Tanks ignore your assault rifle, regardless of what you shoot at it with. Your AT-4 only has one shot, and is really a gamble as to whether or not it's going to hit in the right spot at the right angle to do any real damage to the tank other than bounce off or just eat some ablative armor. The tank has its main cannon for blowing up your tanks, bunkers and buildings from really far away, a coaxial autocannon for pissing in your Cheerios, and a pintle-mounted or sponson-mounted machine gun (or six) for rubbing salt in the wound. On top of all of that, it weighs 80+ tons and can, in a fit of pique, just run you over without even slowing down.

And if you think you're going to be a hero by jumping on the hull and throwing a grenade down the hatch or into the cannon's muzzle? They put mines on that sonofagrox that blow you to a red paste when you get too near.

Also, comparing IG to a modern military is a bit... off the mark. While a team of SEALs costs less than an F22, the American military values the lives of its soldiers rather highly. It is a fact of war that soldiers will die, but every effort is taken to ensure that these lives are not lost needlessly. The US military would rather lose the plane than lose the pilot.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:I was reading the guard codex on Friday and I came across this little tidbit for all those who seem to think that the imperium does not consider guardsmen to be completely expendable.

On page 31 under regimental advisers specifically the paragraph about the master of ordinance.

Attempts by company commanders to call down close-ranged artillery fire can result in disastrous casualties in the imperial guard. Whilst the loss of life is repeatable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.

There you go, your average imperial guardsmen is worth less than an artillery shell in the eyes of the Munotorum.

The equipment and training the guard receives is the very carefully balanced cost vs effectiveness ratio calculated by the administratium to ensure that they get the absolute best bang for buck. Of course this means that the guard get what is essentially the bare minimum and sent to die, because that is the most cost effective.

(Interesting note on Guard flack armor, It actually can stop rounds from ork sluggas and shootas. Not saying their armor is good, its more a case of how bad Ork guns are, of course in comparison even the paltry 6+ armor save of the orks is enough to block a las rifle. )

Well worded quite harshly. It's not too far form how things actually work. (Or use to work. We have smart bombs now.) When calling in artillery. If your not taking casualties, then your not doing it right.

Psienesis wrote:
Once-upon-a-time, perhaps, but modern battletanks now mount anti-personnel mines to their hulls for the event that infantry gets "too close". They then get a Claymore mine to the face for getting "too close".

Realistically speaking, the last thing you want to do as an infantryman is run into a tank. Aircraft you can hide from, and if it bombs your AO, you're most likely going to die anyway, so it doesn't matter. Other infantry you can kill, evade, feint, flank, whatever. Tanks? Tanks ignore your assault rifle, regardless of what you shoot at it with. Your AT-4 only has one shot, and is really a gamble as to whether or not it's going to hit in the right spot at the right angle to do any real damage to the tank other than bounce off or just eat some ablative armor. The tank has its main cannon for blowing up your tanks, bunkers and buildings from really far away, a coaxial autocannon for pissing in your Cheerios, and a pintle-mounted or sponson-mounted machine gun (or six) for rubbing salt in the wound. On top of all of that, it weighs 80+ tons and can, in a fit of pique, just run you over without even slowing down.

And if you think you're going to be a hero by jumping on the hull and throwing a grenade down the hatch or into the cannon's muzzle? They put mines on that sonofagrox that blow you to a red paste when you get too near.

Also, comparing IG to a modern military is a bit... off the mark. While a team of SEALs costs less than an F22, the American military values the lives of its soldiers rather highly. It is a fact of war that soldiers will die, but every effort is taken to ensure that these lives are not lost needlessly. The US military would rather lose the plane than lose the pilot.

40K IG do have hand-held missile launchers and lascannons for anti-tank work and mines too. As for valuing the IG lives, you're entirely correct. The Imperium itself doesn't value the lives of the individual IG cause war is everywhere- sacrificing an entire Thunderhawk or Valkyrie for just one soldier is a waste of equipment and lives(40k armies don't take prisoners, 99% of them anyway)

trying to measure guardsmen training is pretty impossible, because on one hand you'd have to know how many guardsmen there are. we know that there are some professional soldiers in their ranks, but we dont know exactly what the distributions are. the IG runs from the high end regiments like Cadians and vostroyans and catachans and the like to conscripts and penal legions and feral world cannon fodder. You would have to establish some standards to perform a measurement and that is going to be difficult at any scale greater than say, a sector, because the Imperium simply doesn't work that way, nor does the Munitorum (they keep it simple and just hope they throw enough resources in the direction of the problem, and that the guy in charge is smart enough how to solve the problem. they pretty much outlined this in the 5th edition codex.)

How well (or poorly) they are used is entirely up to the officers in charge, and that is always a mixed bag as well. it could be a good offier, a bad officer, an unimaginative one, or a brilliant one. the quality of your officer will also by and large dictate how the troops are treated and regarded. Some will buy into the 'unlimited resources of humans' crap* and play Zapp Branigan. Others will not be quite so insane and actually try to preserve their forces. i mean hell, they even *evacuate* those worthless troops (spending the emperor's precious Fuel and risking his precious dropships in the process.)

In the end IG troops are just as much a commodity, a tool, as the weapons and armor they carry, the ammunition they use, the food they eat, and so on. it's all the same to the munitorum - they want everyone to be just like an Ogryn or a krieger, mentally at least. (But like with most things in the Imperium, theory and practice don't always match up.)

* - it's simple: a potential human soldier is an investment of close to two decades of food, water, possibly education, generally raising them so they can be trained in weeks or months as a soldier. they expend fuel to get them to where they need to be. at best they may get hours, or days, or possibly even years of use out of them. they are more inefficient than combat servitors or replicae. but they suit the imperium's goals, the propoganda, and the agenda. focusing troops on the wars keeps them from focusing on the government itself. external threats work well like that.) What's more is that you need even *more* humans in the logistics and infrastructure to build, maintain, and transport all the stuff your trooper needs, and they need food, water, training etc...

contrast this with orks. orks have their own built in mobile ecosystems (food especially). they can turn any sort of scrap or hulks into starships, vehicles, and weapons.. Their economies are based on teeth. they can literally grow new troops out of the ground, and they can be (at the right levels) be born genetically knowing what they are supposed to do. they're stronger, tougher, and generally better fighters than your average human.

contrast it with Tyranids. They create millions (billions) of troops, which they insert on planet via mycetic spores (part drop pod part orbital bombardment munition.) they are masters of biological and chemical warfare - to the point they will alter a planet's enviroment and climate to suit them and to threaten the defenders. Their troops are ultra-specailized towards combat, making them bigger, tougher, faster, and generally nastier than a human. they don't care about losses, because at the end of a conflict any surviving troops will be killed off, rendered down, and used to create the next generation of troops anyhow. They will steal your corposes and use them to build troops to send against you. They literally can replace losses faster than you can, and will send billions of gaunts against the imperium simply to exhaust its ammo, and then roll over them with millions (billions) more. the Imperium *cannot* match that in attrition warfare in any possible way. they might have a chance against Orks (if a small one) but this is a guaranteed losing proposition against the Tyranids. and the Tyranids are a much bigger threat.

Hell contrast it with the tau: The tau live what.. 40 years? they have short childhoods and short deaths comparead to humans (consuming far less resources in that process) and they have a fairly long (as long as, perhaps longer) 'useful" lifespan than humans are. They are far more driven, curious (hence their technology), and generally far more unified efficiently through the Ethereals and their caste system. They don't suffer nearly as much crime, or infighting or, any of that stuff. They know their place and don't question it. they have far better standardization of equipment and more reliable logistical trains.

There is, in no practical way, for the imperium to effectively counter that on their own terms. The Imperium's advantage is that it is a large, amorphous mass of organic matter. it tends to blend a little bit of everything that everyone has. it doesn't do it well, or efficiently. It can apply (to some extent) any possible tactic or capability and at least pull it off adequately. they are the 40k galaxy's generalists.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:
Not really. Even ordinary lasguns can punch through the joints of power armor, or the eye visors.

Under what conditions? At what range? What setting? Does it require single shots or several closely space shots to drill through. Even then, where does it hit? The Salamander novel Noctrune discussed this - unless you hit a "kill shot" era (hearts, neck, or head) you probably have no guarantee of putting a Marine down. In power armor this means head or neck for a single shot, and that's a rather small target. eye visors are even more unlikely of a target unless by sheer luck.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
(Interesting note on Guard flack armor, It actually can stop rounds from ork sluggas and shootas. Not saying their armor is good, its more a case of how bad Ork guns are, of course in comparison even the paltry 6+ armor save of the orks is enough to block a las rifle. )

i kind of find that hard to believe, unless he's very lucky. a slugger round is going to be like a large caliber (say .50 cal or greater) round hitting the body, and even if it fails to penetrate the sheer amount of momentum will be hazardous unless he's wearing some really heavy armor.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Not really. Even ordinary lasguns can punch through the joints of power armor, or the eye visors.

Under what conditions? At what range? What setting? Does it require single shots or several closely space shots to drill through. Even then, where does it hit? The Salamander novel Noctrune discussed this - unless you hit a "kill shot" era (hearts, neck, or head) you probably have no guarantee of putting a Marine down. In power armor this means head or neck for a single shot, and that's a rather small target. eye visors are even more unlikely of a target unless by sheer luck.

You should also ask which lasgun under which power setting. If it were a Mars/Necromunda pattern then it would have to be a very lucky shot. If it were a Triplex, with its variable power settings, then it's more likely. Even more so if it were the No. 98 Lucius pattern DKoK use which only fires on a very high power setting (for which it forsakes its rate of fire).

Connor MacLeod wrote:

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
(Interesting note on Guard flack armor, It actually can stop rounds from ork sluggas and shootas. Not saying their armor is good, its more a case of how bad Ork guns are, of course in comparison even the paltry 6+ armor save of the orks is enough to block a las rifle. )

i kind of find that hard to believe, unless he's very lucky. a slugger round is going to be like a large caliber (say .50 cal or greater) round hitting the body, and even if it fails to penetrate the sheer amount of momentum will be hazardous unless he's wearing some really heavy armor.

Auto & Stub weapons fire rounds equivilant to modern .50 calibre bullets and flak armour will quite happily stop those. Those rounds are described as large, low velocity rounds and I assume they're considered low velocity due to the other, more hi-tech weaponry that exists in the universe. The person hit by the round might be shocked & bruised from having such a large lump of metal flinging itself at them at rather high speeds, but most often Flak Armour will hold out - however it can also fail if enough bullets are put into flak armour at once. It is noted as being made from layers of ablative and impact-absorbent materials, however, so I doubt that an impact from an autogun or Ork slugga would put the wearer out of action through impact alone.
Ork weapons are not really a reliable thing to judge the capability of armour by, considering that they only really work because Orks believe they will. They come in all manner of shapes and sizes with the general rule being the bigger & louder the better - doesn't mean they're more effective.

Point is against the standard weapon an Imperial can get their hands on, whether las or solid projectile, Flak Armour is very good protection. Against anything more powerful than that and it's not quite so effective, but it does do its job well.