Is it true that the majority of Guardsmen will never see chaos and xenos?

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**Grey Templar**

Romer wrote:
SylvanaSekNadin wrote: That said though, manpower is the cheapest currency in the guard, and if they had to choose between loosing a lemun russ tank or a couple of hundred guardsmen, they will choose to sacrifice the troopers.

That's where I disagree. The logical choice there is to sacrifice the tank.

There far fewer examples of commanders falling in line with GWs hyperbole than there are the other way around. Would Creed throw 200 men at an objective to save a Russ? No. He'd throw his armour at it. Lose that single tank and use his infantry to follow in behind and secure the objective.

Leman Russ tanks are an STC produced vehicle. Any civillised world could churn them out. There hardly going to be in short supply, which gives the well supplied Guard commander the ability to choose the tool that produces the fewest losses in manpower and material.

If tanks are in short supply due to logistical issues, certainly, they'd just use the soldiers and take the losses without blinking. But I can't think of many guard commanders I've read about who would choose a tank over 200 men.

Manpower is the guards greatest resource because it allows them to prevail on a galactic stage where others couldn't, not because other equipment is so valuable.

You NEVER sacrifice the tank. Those are much more expensive to replace then a few hundred guardsmen.

LRBTs are not churned out by any civilized world, they are made on Forge Worlds only.

The Imperium can replace soldiers for free, tanks cost resources.

**Majsharan**

yeah the codex is pretty clear that LRBTs are in short supply, and there aren't really enough of them to go around. I am sure every commander would love to have millions of them, but as GT said thye are made my Forge worlds only, a class of planets that has taken quite the beating recently.

**Armless Failure**

Chenkov is probably the worst example of an imperial commander going. Even Schaeffer cares more about his men than Chenkov.

**Connor MacLeod**

Grey Templar wrote:
You NEVER sacrifice the tank. Those are much more expensive to replace then a few hundred guardsmen.

That's what the Munitorum and AdMech keep telling people, because they like to obsessively stockpile and keep/maintain huge stockpiles (such as worlds like Vraks, where you have ludicrously huge stockpiles of material that rarely ever seem to be touched in significant quantities. They even regard lasguns as being more important than troopers, FFS.

LRBTs are not churned out by any civilized world, they are made on Forge Worlds only.

I'm pretty sure Imperial Armour 1 said that Russes can be made at hive worlds at least as well (5th edition IG codex mentioned LR production facilities on Armageddon for example, and that industrial worlds will churn out tanks as well as forge worlds.)

The Imperium can replace soldiers for free, tanks cost resources.

Troops cost money to train, equip, feed, and maintain, even if you don't use them. They might be cheaper than tanks (although I'd say that would depend on how food and such is supplied) but they are most certainly not free.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Seaward wrote:The Imperial Guard's most abundant resource is humans. I wouldn't say Chenkov-style leadership is all that rare - the DKoK practice it as well, just to name one example, and not everybody's the Tanith First or Cadian.

Indeed. The 12 or so "famous" regiments are not typical of the IG. There's still billions the fight WWII soviet style and even WWI trench warfare style.

**Romer**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's still billions the fight WWII soviet style and even WWI trench warfare style.

Examples don't back that up. Not to mention that fighting trench warfare style/static defense when you've got equipment like tanks, fighting planes, armoured transports, drop troopers is idiotic.

Considering the Guard have atleast 4 months training each, it doesn't add that they would end up fighting 'soviet style'.

On the Russ, I've read somewhere or another that they can be produced on places other than forge worlds. Forge worlds just have the capability to produce the advanced stuff and stuff in massive numbers. Armageddon is an industrial hive world (not a forge world) and it churns out Chimera's like sweets. Civillised worlds are likely to produce their own armour if they don't have STC patterns available to.

And as said, men certainly arn't free. They are still an investment. A wrecked Russ may also be salvagable.

**Brother Coa**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Seaward wrote:The Imperial Guard's most abundant resource is humans. I wouldn't say Chenkov-style leadership is all that rare - the DKoK practice it as well, just to name one example, and not everybody's the Tanith First or Cadian.

Indeed. The 12 or so "famous" regiments are not typical of the IG. There's still billions the fight WWII soviet style and even WWI trench warfare style.

So? Trench Warfare is the only way to stop Orks, today's hit and run or mobility tactics don't help ( because they are horde ). And sometimes commanders are so desperate to hold down objective that they actually are sending thousands to their deaths just to buy time ( Stalingrad ).

And other sci-fi factions use that kind of warfare because it is effective in some situations, despite having high tech ( Star Wars, Starship Troopers, Halo ).

**KamikazeCanuck**

Romer wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's still billions the fight WWII soviet style and even WWI trench warfare style.

Examples don't back that up. Not to mention that fighting trench warfare style/static defense when you've got equipment like tanks, fighting planes, armoured transports, drop troopers is idiotic.

Considering the Guard have atleast 4 months training each, it doesn't add that they would end up fighting 'soviet style'.

On the Russ, I've read somewhere or another that they can be produced on places other than forge worlds. Forge worlds just have the capability to produce the advanced stuff and stuff in massive numbers. Armageddon is an industrial hive world (not a forge world) and it churns out Chimera's like sweets. Civillised worlds are likely to produce their own armour if they don't have STC patterns available to.

And as said, men certainly arn't free. They are still an investment. A wrecked Russ may also be salvagable.

Brother Coa wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Seaward wrote:The Imperial Guard's most abundant resource is humans. I wouldn't say Chenkov-style leadership is all that rare - the DKoK practice it as well, just to name one example, and not everybody's the Tanith First or Cadian.

Indeed. The 12 or so "famous" regiments are not typical of the IG. There's still billions the fight WWII soviet style and even WWI trench warfare style.

So? Trench Warfare is the only way to stop Orks, today's hit and run or mobility tactics don't help ( because they are horde ). And sometimes commanders are so desperate to hold down objective that they actually are sending thousands to their deaths just to buy time ( Stalingrad ).

And other sci-fi factions use that kind of warfare because it is effective in some situations, despite having high tech ( Star Wars, Starship Troopers, Halo ).

You guys need to read a little something called The Seige of Vraks 1,2 & 3. If you only read one 40K thing ever, make it that.

**Corporal_Reznov**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
You guys need to read a little something called The Seige of Vraks 1,2 & 3. If you only read one 40K thing ever, make it that.

So you will not respond to your detractors and will instead focus on fluff that focuses on the DKoK regiments and because of that say that all other IG do the same thing as the DKoK?

Yeah, ignore this one guys.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
You guys need to read a little something called The Seige of Vraks 1,2 & 3. If you only read one 40K thing ever, make it that.

So you will not respond to your detractors and will instead focus on fluff that focuses on the DKoK regiments and because of that say that all other IG do the same thing as the DKoK?

Yeah, ignore this one guys.

Uh yeah, that's not what I said there guy.

**dbsamurai**

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

But hey don't let facts stop your trolling about how the IG and Imperium suck .

MountainSquid wrote:
That...that wasn't Armageddon. It was some planet where only one city was being held by the Imperium after years and years of war. Bouchers Roc, I believe.
My interpretation of that book is that the planet the book talks about are one of the worlds lost due to bureaucratic screwups by the Administratum.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Imperial Guard never see Tau, Pulse Rifles and Rail Guns open up on them out of human eyesight range.

Irrelavant as Artillery, Air strikes and Orbital bombarment make Tau toys look like crap

Obvious Troll is obvious

Guardsmen are regularly thrown into the meatgrinder, because in large part their job is to stall for evac of the civies, or to provide a solid defense for space marines (that whole 10 men to a space marine thing).

It is entirely probable that many humans and guardsmen, lest they be stationed near such locals, will never witness anything other than orks and rebellious hive rioters. Simply because statistically those are the most populous options for the universe (love the statistics up there on just the hive worlds...not counting the other worlds that also get guardsman tithes). Guardsmen are designed to be expendable, even on the table. They're given armor that would make veitnam war veterans laugh, guns that, in comparision to their foes, is like fighting off the USMC with an army of stick wielding natives, and commanders who largely adhere to their own version of the codex astartes, and thus all use the same tactic: march the men foreward, dig trenches, pound your target with artillery until your lines collapse, fall back, repeat.

Even on the table the ability to form stubborn blob squads reflects that in large part all they are is a bunch of bodies to prevent the important things from getting killed.

**Connor MacLeod**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
You guys need to read a little something called The Seige of Vraks 1,2 & 3. If you only read one 40K thing ever, make it that.

I did. Of particular note was where it said siege warfare regiments were specialists like armour and drop troops. EG they're not common. Furthermore, I recall as well that "trench warfare" was option 3. Option one was a "swift assault" followed by "blockade." Neither of which suggest trench warfare is all that common.

Actually I also remember a rather inept Vindicaire assassin as well (firing on a shielded target and yet not having shield penetrator rounds? OOPS!)

**KamikazeCanuck**

Connor MacLeod wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
You guys need to read a little something called The Seige of Vraks 1,2 & 3. If you only read one 40K thing ever, make it that.

I did. Of particular note was where it said siege warfare regiments were specialists like armour and drop troops. EG they're not common. Furthermore, I recall as well that "trench warfare" was option 3. Option one was a "swift assault" followed by "blockade." Neither of which suggest trench warfare is all that common.

Actually I also remember a rather inept Vindicaire assassin as well (firing on a shielded target and yet not having shield penetrator rounds? OOPS!)

I recall them taking years just to land and then digging in immediately. Nothing swift about that.

**Corporal_Reznov**

dbsamurai wrote:
Obvious Troll is obvious

Guardsmen are regularly thrown into the meatgrinder, because in large part their job is to stall for evac of the civies, or to provide a solid defense for space marines (that whole 10 men to a space marine thing).

It is entirely probable that many humans and guardsmen, lest they be stationed near such locals, will never witness anything other than orks and rebellious hive rioters. Simply because statistically those are the most populous options for the universe (love the statistics up there on just the hive worlds...not counting the other worlds that also get guardsman tithes). Guardsmen are designed to be expendable, even on the table. They're given armor that would make veitnam war veterans laugh, guns that, in comparision to their foes, is like fighting off the USMC with an army of stick wielding natives, and commanders who largely adhere to their own version of the codex astartes, and thus all use the same tactic: march the men foreward, dig trenches, pound your target with artillery until your lines collapse, fall back, repeat.

Even on the table the ability to form stubborn blob squads reflects that in large part all they are is a bunch of bodies to prevent the important things from getting killed.

Flak armour is quite good for autoguns and protecting from non-direct hits but other than that your just trolling.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I recall them taking years just to land and then digging in immediately. Nothing swift about that.

Yeah, because they chose the third option of long siege war which was then done by specialized siege regiments known as the DKoK. The first option was swift direct assault by Adeptus Astartes and orbital strikes by Naval units. The second was a blockade.

**KamikazeCanuck**

And they obviously didn't opt for the options.

**Tadashi**

Astartes are usually reserved for highly critical operations, that's why.

**Corporal_Reznov**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:And they obviously didn't opt for the options.

WTF? Just read the damn books to find out why. You stated you've read the books and yet you don't know why?

**KamikazeCanuck**

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:And they obviously didn't opt for the options.
WTF? Just read the damn books to find out why? You stated you've read the books and yet you don't know why?

I didn't ask you why. It seems pretty obvious from your disjointed responses that come out of no where that English is not your first language. Pro-tip when struggling to communicate, error on the side of politeness because you may be misunderstanding things.

**Seaward**

Romer wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's still billions the fight WWII soviet style and even WWI trench warfare style.

Examples don't back that up.

Sure they do. In every Guard novel I've read - that I can recall, at least - there's almost always a foil regiment that fights in the "Send in the next wave!" manner to make the contrast between them and the heroic protagonists clear.

Not to mention that fighting trench warfare style/static defense when you've got equipment like tanks, fighting planes, armoured transports, drop troopers is idiotic.

Idiotic warfare is a hallmark of the game, especially on the IoM side.

Considering the Guard have atleast 4 months training each, it doesn't add that they would end up fighting 'soviet style'.

Four months of training really isn't a lot.

Honestly, I don't know why Guard players fight tooth and nail against the notion that the Imperial Guard, by and large, adopts the tactic of throwing enough meat into the grinder to eventually make the gears seize. You can still play your army as the humane, cares-about-their-troops type, because there are certainly examples of those, too.

**Connor MacLeod**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I recall them taking years just to land and then digging in immediately. Nothing swift about that.

For the siege warfare? Yes, that took forever. But that's not my piont. My point was Siege Warfare was not option 1. They did not look at Vraks and say "THIS LOOKS LIKE A JOB FOR TRENCH WARRIOR". That was the third option, after swift assault (combined attack from orbit directly on the fortress using Space Marines, troops, and naval support.) That was the "obvious" answer. Next was blockade. Then was Siege Warfare.

Considering how insanely resource intensive siege warfare is (both in terms of material, troops, support personnel, etc.) and how time-consuming it is... it's not exactly an ideal choice for a Imperium who cannot always rely on stable and consistent long-range logistics is it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:Honestly, I don't know why Guard players fight tooth and nail against the notion that the Imperial Guard, by and large, adopts the tactic of throwing enough meat into the grinder to eventually make the gears seize. You can still play your army as the humane, cares-about-their-troops type, because there are certainly examples of those, too.

Because they really don't have unlimited resources and doing it that way is a good recipe to lose? Can you seriously tell me that attrition warfare is going to work against Orks or Tyranids? Or Necrons, for that matter? It might work against some enemies (Chaos and HEretics) but as a standard doctrine there are lots of enemies it is not going to work against, and will just end up losing the Imperium valuable resources and territory (such as a whole segmentum to the Tyranids.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Four months of training really isn't a lot.

I could be wrong, but that's longer than US Army basic training.

Edit: Basic seems to be 10 weeks according to wikipedia. More advanced adds 6 to 52 weeks depending on what the training involves.

**Corporal_Reznov**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I didn't ask you why. It seems pretty obvious from your disjointed responses that come out of no where that English is not your first language. Pro-tip when struggling to communicate, error on the side of politeness because you may be misunderstanding things.

Yes, English is not my first Language especially when it comes to writing it and grammar. But I do try my best.

Still what did you mean by your post anyway if you were not asking what I thought you were asking?

Seaward wrote:
Sure they do. In every Guard novel I've read - that I can recall, at least - there's almost always a foil regiment that fights in the "Send in the next wave!" manner to make the contrast between them and the heroic protagonists clear.

Idiotic warfare is a hallmark of the game, especially on the IoM side.

Four months of training really isn't a lot.

Honestly, I don't know why Guard players fight tooth and nail against the notion that the Imperial Guard, by and large, adopts the tactic of throwing enough meat into the grinder to eventually make the gears seize. You can still play your army as the humane, cares-about-their-troops type, because there are certainly examples of those, too.

Its not really by and large. It simply depends on the commander and the doctrine that the regiment fight under which in of itself varies.

**Seaward**

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Because they really don't have unlimited resources and doing it that way is a good recipe to lose? Can you seriously tell me that attrition warfare is going to work against Orks or Tyranids? Or Necrons, for that matter? It might work against some enemies (Chaos and HEretics) but as a standard doctrine there are lots of enemies it is not going to work against, and will just end up losing the Imperium valuable resources and territory (such as a whole segmentum to the Tyranids.)

Humans are the closest thing they have to an unlimited resource. There are billions upon billions upon billions of them.

As for it working against Orks and Tyranids? Sure, it'll work against Orks, as Orks are rarely united in the numbers humans can be. There are more Orks in the galaxy, but that doesn't matter if they're not all coordinating with each other - which they're not.

As for Tyranids, very little works against them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Four months of training really isn't a lot.

I could be wrong, but that's longer than US Army basic training.

**Tadashi**

More like quadrillions. Apparently, the Departmento Munitorum can't come up with a number big enough to count all Guardsmen in active service. Just counting the hundreds of billions dying/transported per day pushes their limits.

**Corporal_Reznov**

Seaward wrote:
As for Tyranids, very little works against them.

False. Here is a excerpt from the Deathwatch rpg of Imperial Guard kicking Nid butt without the LOL Charge nonsense:

Deathwatch rpg: Mark of the Xenos 46 wrote:From the annals of Codicier Taelon
This excerpt from the witness report of an Imperial Guardsman of 632nd Ganf Magna Regiment details an
unconventional Trygon assault on a prepared position at Table Mountain on Phonos.
++++++ Excerpt Begins++++++

…The next morning we found ourselves cut of f, with swarms of Tyranids covering the valley as far as the eye could see. They’d
clearly come for the defence laser installation on the flat top of the mountain, wanting to put it out of action before it took more
of a toll on the hive ships and spores still in orbit. They tried rushing our defences with a direct assault first, but we’d used our
time well and dug in deep. The slopes of the mountain turned purple with the ichor of their crushed bodies.

They tried winged creatures next and the sky was soon black with flocks of Gargoyles. The defence laser made short work of
those flapping clouds though, burning them to cinders that fluttered helplessly downwards into the mass below. We were feeling
pretty good about our chances right about then, but they cut loose with some of their big guys and another swarm attack next.
Those giant, roaring monsters clambered right up the side of mountain like a man would scramble up a hill. They hit the forward
redoubts hard but Captain Heskund stood right by the heavy weapons crews and directed their fire. We put enough holes into the
monsters to stop them in their tracks and then mopped up the little ones when they were milling around confused. Afterwards we
brought up a Leman Russ tank with a dozer blade and shovelled the corpses back down the mountain.
It got quieter then. The Tyranids pulled back out of range but we weren’t fooled—they’d be back for a night attack or trying to
tunnel their way in next. We had screamers and tremor sensors up around the perimeter so we felt pretty secure but nothing came
all night. The Tyranids were still out there, thundering around like great herds of animals, shrieking and calling in their horrid
alien voices, but we stood watch after watch and they never came.

Next morning there looked to be less Tyranids than before and we cheered. That was when the ground cracked open and we found
out where they’d all gone. I don’t know how we survived what came after; the first thing out of the hole was like a giant snake
with claws, easily the length of three Chimeras, hissing and spitting lightning. Right after it came such a swarm of little ones that
we were knee deep in them in seconds. We brought up flamers and burned the hole, the little ones and everyone near it. The big
snake got away, I think—none of them like fire much. We figured out afterwards that the Tyranids had been thundering around
outside all night to cover up the sound the snake made digging its way in. Those sneaky little b–

++++++++++++++Excerpt ends ++++++++++++

Also, 15 hours shows scene's where the Charge tactic is not always done like the training to do urban fighting.

**KamikazeCanuck**

@Reznov. I did not ask any question hence the lack of question mark. I know why Vraks went the way it did you seem to be mistaken. A "swift strike" wasn't possible because anti-air defenses were so strong that not only was it a no-fly zone it was a no-orbit zone. It wasn't even safe for ships to be on one side of the planet.
A blockade was actually turned down without much thought. When it came down to it the final question for the munitorium was would we rather spend 10,000,000 guardsmen for a 10 year war or 10 Guardsmen for a 100 year siege. They went for the former and it was an easy choice.
This all goes back to the original point that the IoM's cheapest and most plentiful resource is human life. The munitorium isn't shy about spending that resource. A person isn't even as valuable as a lasgun. 40k: it's grim and it is dark.

**Soo'Vah'Cha**

Nice story snippet Corporal_Reznov...its a pretty elegant proof of tyranid intelligence.

Would be nice to see forgeworld or GW make a anti-nid IG force, flamers and hazmat suits, poison gas arty shells and all sorts of bug killin stuff, would show the IoM reacting to one of its greatest threats, get proactive for once.

**Connor MacLeod**

Seaward wrote:
Humans are the closest thing they have to an unlimited resource. There are billions upon billions upon billions of them.

It's still a resource, and they still take steps to preserve it, even if it's less important than equipment (in theory.) I mean if they really didnt give a damn about people, why do they bother with the logistics of feeding them, medical care, etc? They should just wire them up with explosives, give them a gun and bayonet and send them out into the enemy, right?

As for it working against Orks and Tyranids? Sure, it'll work against Orks, as Orks are rarely united in the numbers humans can be. There are more Orks in the galaxy, but that doesn't matter if they're not all coordinating with each other - which they're not.

What is a typical WAAAGH? Millions of orks? Big ones like Armageddon get into the billions? How often do you see "millions" of guardsmen amassed for one conflict, much less billions? cooperation is only part of it. They have to find and ferry those forces to where they fight, nevermind the logistics and support elements. Orks actually have an advantage here with their mobile ecosystems and regenerative abilities - their logistical requirements are actually less strenuous than for a human force.

I would also argue that IG do not start out inherently coordinated, especially since they tend to scratch build forces on an ad-hoc basis and then expect them to sort themselves out on the way. Again that whole "its hard to micromanage via astrotelepathy and warp travel" problem. Orks still reproduce faster than humans, develop faster, and on average are physically stronger and tougher.

As for Tyranids, very little works against them.

Some things work better than others. ATtrition against the Tyranids is not one of them.

It is, yes. But then comes AIT, which, if you're doing anything that involves shooting a gun at people, is going to be considerably longer.

And how likely is it that AIT stuff represents "typical" guards men training? I'm not tlaking about the PDF tithes either, I'm talking about the "mass conscription from the civilian populace/militia" angle.

**Brother Coa**

dbsamurai wrote:
Guardsmen are regularly thrown into the meatgrinder, because in large part their job is to stall for evac of the civies, or to provide a solid defense for space marines (that whole 10 men to a space marine thing).

It is entirely probable that many humans and guardsmen, lest they be stationed near such locals, will never witness anything other than orks and rebellious hive rioters. Simply because statistically those are the most populous options for the universe (love the statistics up there on just the hive worlds...not counting the other worlds that also get guardsman tithes). Guardsmen are designed to be expendable, even on the table. They're given armor that would make veitnam war veterans laugh LOL talking about uber trolling , guns that, in comparision to their foes, is like fighting off the USMC with an army of stick wielding natives, and commanders who largely adhere to their own version of the codex astartes, and thus all use the same tactic: march the men foreward, dig trenches, pound your target with artillery until your lines collapse, fall back, repeat.

Even on the table the ability to form stubborn blob squads reflects that in large part all they are is a bunch of bodies to prevent the important things from getting killed.

And did you ever wonder why Guardsman suck in comparison to everyone?
Because they are professional solders who fight flying rodent gak insane superhumans capable of tearing them apart in 3 seconds or less, technologically advanced space communists capable of picking them off like flies a mile away, horridly savage xenomorphs who wants to nom nom your entire squad in a single bite, soulless space zombies who want to kill everything that has a pulse, space elves with xenotech you have no fething idea about, and green-skinned xeno-barbarians that were made for fighten' and winnin'.
And none of you remembered that Mankind lost all of it's technology from the golden age thanks to the psykers and Eldar. And recovering from that kind of catastrophic event is pain in the a**. And not every Guard Commander is Chenkov, we said that like 1.000.000 times.

**Tadashi**

To simplify, Guard strategy is similar to Soviets or WWII Germans. Massive armored and mechanized infantry assault with heavy artillery (and if possible, air) support, with drop infantry attacking behind enemy lines.

**Che-Vito**

DakkaDakka wrote: