Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

reds8n wrote:The # of wasp walker squadrons may not exceed the # of corsair squads in the army.

Sort of makes sense since Wasps can't claim objectives.

Even with just that simple outline of the list I'm thinking that Corsairs are going to be a tad broken, its certainly more powerful than anything the Eldar codex can produce unless there have been some massive point cost changes. Sure you can't get Dragons (well 1 unit will have to be enough for Land Raider duties), but even more widespread access to S6 shooting (particularly on platforms which are more durable), various fliers and support vehicles to fill gaps in your list (notably the Warp Hunter which is now a solid tank hunting unit), potentially useful troops (I know they can get Fusion Guns which is a good start) and most importantly access to both the Venom and the Falcon, which are probably the two most powerful transports in the game for anti infantry and anti tank (+ durability) respectively. Its not 'Dreads assaulting from Drop Pods' broken, but I can see it being 'Autocannons on Chimeras' broken.

reds8n wrote:The # of wasp walker squadrons may not exceed the # of corsair squads in the army.

Still gives them double heavy support slots compared to all other armies which is ... interesting indeed .

johnnyrumour wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Oh goody more marine options.

Obvious Troll is obvious. It's an Eldar-centric book dude, with a smattering of Marines.

As Kanluwen once wisely said, The books are called Imperial Armour. By definition, one faction sort of has to be Marines or Guard.

Powerguy wrote:Its not 'Dreads assaulting from Drop Pods' broken, but I can see it being 'Autocannons on Chimeras' broken.

I'm intrigued - could you elaborate on the concept of something being "'Autocannons on Chimeras' broken"?

Can't wait for Forgeworld to release the Bran Redmaw model, I'm definitely buying it.

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I think he's going for VIND-EE-CAR-AY.

Aye I actually think "vindicar" would have been a better name, but hey.

On that note, the "ever" in "eversor" should be pronounced the way it is in "reverse", not the way it is in "never" (it's a derivative of "evert")

I'll go away now,

Yet there are more than 1 acceptable ways to pronounce "Dance". "Melbourne" and "Brisbane" are pronounced differently by Australians to how you'd imagine by their spelling patterns. Regional accents and dialects will always change and effect the pronunciation of words. Don't get too wrapped up in this stuff.

Dysartes wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Its not 'Dreads assaulting from Drop Pods' broken, but I can see it being 'Autocannons on Chimeras' broken.

I'm intrigued - could you elaborate on the concept of something being "'Autocannons on Chimeras' broken"?

Generally people moan about individual Forgeworld units being broken (which they have got much better at, recent releases are far more balanced), i.e the Dread comment. I'm referring to lists, which they still screw up occasionally with easily spamable units or stupidly powerful combos (which are not the fault of a single unit by itself). Autocannons on Chimeras is obviously an upgrade for Guard armies, which pushes them in broken territory because they are so cheap and easy to spam. Chimeras/Guard already do pretty well with S6 shooting, but mass S7 shooting in an army which is already powerful pushes them to a level above any standard codex army. At first glance the Corsairs list looks similar, no single unit seems overpowered, but the combinations available for massed S6 shooting and AV12 spam (if Falcons are dedicated transports they are very powerful) make the overall list very powerful.

Autocannons on Chimeras has never been 'broken'. It was a trade-off that changed the role of your Chimera. Multi-Lasers and (slightly more costly) Autocannons are balanced against one another as they're both good at what they do, but they do different things. It means there's a real choice there.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Autocannons on Chimeras has never been 'broken'. It was a trade-off that changed the role of your Chimera. Multi-Lasers and (slightly more costly) Autocannons are balanced against one another as they're both good at what they do, but they do different things. It means there's a real choice there.

Autocannons are stupidly cheap at 5pts and are on a cheap vehicle to start with. They hardly do different things from the Multilaser either, you lose 1 shot but gain S and AP, so are slightly less effective against MEQ but are far more effective against MCs and vehicles (i.e the heavy hitters you want to kill in the first place). The real issue is how easy they are to spam, Guard are powerful to start with and this is a 5pt upgrade across the board which massively increases your killing power. Its hard enough dealing with Hydras, Manticores and other heavy hitters, but if there are now 10+ (being conservative here) Chimeras blasting your vehicles to pieces nothing is going to stand in front of you. I realise its not a broken as Dreads charging from Deep Strike, but it does push Guard into a level well above any GW codex, which is enough for me to call it broken.

I heard Volume 12 is called the Morros Incident. Any word on who the opponent is? I suppose only Dark Eldar/Necrons are left now.

It'd actually be quite cool of them to expand upon one of the lesser but powerful alien empires mentioned. Ulumeathic League, Dracolith Church, Reek Worldweave, Hrud, Draxian Hegemony, Barghesi Hordes, or someone new. Of course that won't happen....

coulda sworn I mentioned it already, IA12 is Tzeentch vs. IG Penitent Legion (Penal legion?)

I never heard of a "Penitent" Legion or "Penal" Legion being involved, but I guess anything is possible.

Then you should pay more attention:

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/rumours-news-previews/216777-imperial-armour-12-forgeworld.html

Ouze wrote:

johnnyrumour wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Oh goody more marine options.

Obvious Troll is obvious. It's an Eldar-centric book dude, with a smattering of Marines.

As Kanluwen once wisely said, The books are called Imperial Armour. By definition, one faction sort of has to be Marines or Guard.

You mean like how all Black Library books are about Eldar or the Black Library? Oh wait....

Names are just that and are not binding nor restrictive. 40K doesn't purely take place only in the 40th millenium. 20th Century Fox can still apply to products produced since the 21st Century began.

chaos0xomega wrote:Then you should pay more attention:

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/rumours-news-previews/216777-imperial-armour-12-forgeworld.html

Eh. That explains why I didn't care enough to remember it.
A "Penitent Regiment" will most likely be one of three things:
A) So incredibly boring it won't interest me.
B) So incredibly cliche that it won't interest me.
or
C) Krieg, so it won't interest me too much.

I'm betting on C, as they've hinted that Krieg will be getting new stuff but it won't be for the Siege Army list.

Iracundus wrote:You mean like how all Black Library books are about Eldar or the Black Library? Oh wait....

Names are just that and are not binding nor restrictive. 40K doesn't purely take place only in the 40th millenium. 20th Century Fox can still apply to products produced since the 21st Century began.

Originally, it did start out as a binding/restrictive piece. Now it's just become too ingrained in how they like doing things to want to move on from there. They also recognize, rightly so, that the Imperium plays a pretty pivotal role in the overall structure of the galaxy.

The whipping boys.

Dysartes wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dysartes wrote:Out of interest, what/who is stopping you using the Shadow Spectres, their Phoenix Lord, and/or the Falcon chassis variants in your regular (non-tournament) games?

You really want to start that argument?

Not looking to start a debate, more looking to find out which case applies here.

It's official, but a supplement (hence why it carries the Warhammer 40000 Supplement tag), so it's not a core book (the rulebook states the rulebook and codices are the core books), thus is something you and your opponent agree to use. But basically, make a list with an without them, and ask your opponent if you can use them.

Kanluwen wrote:

Iracundus wrote:You mean like how all Black Library books are about Eldar or the Black Library? Oh wait....

Names are just that and are not binding nor restrictive. 40K doesn't purely take place only in the 40th millenium. 20th Century Fox can still apply to products produced since the 21st Century began.

Originally, it did start out as a binding/restrictive piece. Now it's just become too ingrained in how they like doing things to want to move on from there. They also recognize, rightly so, that the Imperium plays a pretty pivotal role in the overall structure of the galaxy.

The whipping boys.

The excuse is as tired and as empty as when Black Library used it when they claimed they would never produce any book other than those from the POV of humans and the Imperium. Now they have an Eldar trilogy nearly completed and a Dark Eldar novel in the works. If BL can do it, so can FW. GW themselves in 3rd edition tried that angle with their pamphlet Codex design with only Imperial viewpoints, resulting in new xenos players knowing nothing about the faction they've spent money on. GW have since backpedaled on that stance as a failure and now their Codex layout includes background once more from a 3rd party narrator POV, including information that is not known to humanity or the Imperium in general. If GW can do it, so can FW.

There are plenty of xenos on xenos conflicts that can add flavor to the 40K universe if explored, from the Battle for Iyanden to the Tyranids vs. Orks on Octavius or the struggles between the old enemies of the Necrons and the Eldar. The 40K universe would be that much poorer if the story of Iyanden (as told first in Doom of the Eldar, then Defence of Iyanden WD article, and retold in the Tyranid and Eldar Codices since) had never been explored simply because humans were not involved directly.

Iracundus wrote:The excuse is as tired and as empty as when Black Library used it when they claimed they would never produce any book other than those from the POV of humans and the Imperium. Now they have an Eldar trilogy nearly completed and a Dark Eldar novel in the works. If BL can do it, so can FW.

It also depends on if they want to. Black Library has books from xenos point of view? Good for the authors that wrote the books. If Forgeworld authors don't want to write from a xnoes perspective, they don't have to.

-Loki- wrote:

Iracundus wrote:The excuse is as tired and as empty as when Black Library used it when they claimed they would never produce any book other than those from the POV of humans and the Imperium. Now they have an Eldar trilogy nearly completed and a Dark Eldar novel in the works. If BL can do it, so can FW.

It also depends on if they want to. Black Library has books from xenos point of view? Good for the authors that wrote the books. If Forgeworld authors don't want to write from a xnoes perspective, they don't have to.

You seem to miss the point. FW have claimed as BL did in the past that xenos in 40K are so alien that it is impossible to write from their perspective, which was what GW tried to claim for the Codices in 3rd edition. That excuse promptly went out the window and now they have no problem doing so, while FW clings to the old excuse of it not being possible. The existence of such releases from GW and BL and their backpedaling on their former position demonstrates otherwise. It is possible. Trying to keep claiming it isn't possible is a transparent excuse.

Ultimately also it is generally a poor idea to not give customers what they express as their preferences. Do it long enough and they just might go elsewhere with their money. FW for a time were producing endless slight variations of Leman Russ tanks, which might be what the FW treadheads wanted to do, but it seems even the customer base eventually tired of what were essentially minor cosmetic variations of the same thing because FW since has done greater variation with even their Imperial kits.

Kanluwen wrote:Originally, it did start out as a binding/restrictive piece. Now it's just become too ingrained in how they like doing things to want to move on from there. They also recognize, rightly so, that the Imperium plays a pretty pivotal role in the overall structure of the galaxy.

Plus, like it not, the Imperium is the lens through which we view the 40K universe. It is rare that we ever see something from the 'other side'.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Originally, it did start out as a binding/restrictive piece. Now it's just become too ingrained in how they like doing things to want to move on from there. They also recognize, rightly so, that the Imperium plays a pretty pivotal role in the overall structure of the galaxy.

Plus, like it not, the Imperium is the lens through which we view the 40K universe. It is rare that we ever see something from the 'other side'.

The fact 2nd edition and more recently the current edition's Codices show background and information from an omniscient POV rather than just the in-universe Imperial perspective shows that isn't the case. The existence of such detailed accounts such as the Battle for Iyanden shows it again isn't the impossible task it's made out to be. We see quotes all the time from characters in xenos Codices, instead of them being completely faceless enemies as they were in 3rd edition pamphlet Codices. This means it is possible to translate and understand what they say and mean. We've had major parts of BL novels such as Shadow Point or more recently parts of the Word Bearer novels told from the perspective of an alien.

The fact it occurs at all means it is not impossible. The existence of even 1 example is sufficient to disprove it as impossible.

Or they're just the exception that proves the rule.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Or they're just the exception that proves the rule.

They are more than "just the exception" when the GW the parent company backpedals on an entire Codex design paradigm and when BL appears to be pumping out more xenos novels despite earlier claiming they would never do even one. We have things such as Planetstrike showing Orks vs. Tyranids and some of their emotions and reactions. When rest of the GW franchise seems to have abandoned such a position entirely, it is rather FW's position that is proving to be more the exception to the rule.

Iracundus wrote:Ultimately also it is generally a poor idea to not give customers what they express as their preferences. Do it long enough and they just might go elsewhere with their money. FW for a time were producing endless slight variations of Leman Russ tanks, which might be what the FW treadheads wanted to do, but it seems even the customer base eventually tired of what were essentially minor cosmetic variations of the same thing because FW since has done greater variation with even their Imperial kits.

Out of interest what, other than your own opinion, do you offer as evidence that FW are not catering to the interests of their customers?

One could argue that, to date, from a background perspective FW are catering to Xenos players' preferences, given the only opponent the Imperium seems able to defeat is Chaos* (after three books).

* - I haven't heard who wins the IA11 campaign yet.

Dysartes wrote:

Iracundus wrote:Ultimately also it is generally a poor idea to not give customers what they express as their preferences. Do it long enough and they just might go elsewhere with their money. FW for a time were producing endless slight variations of Leman Russ tanks, which might be what the FW treadheads wanted to do, but it seems even the customer base eventually tired of what were essentially minor cosmetic variations of the same thing because FW since has done greater variation with even their Imperial kits.

Out of interest what, other than your own opinion, do you offer as evidence that FW are not catering to the interests of their customers?

I and others in the past, such as some posters from the Warseer forums, have in the past in the process of ordering from FW offered feedback when requested, along the lines of how some xenos vs. xenos books would be interesting and break up the monotony of yet another Imperium vs. other. The response from FW though not exactly identical in wording, basically took the line of "We have heard what you said you would like, but we are not going to ever do it."

One could argue that, to date, from a background perspective FW are catering to Xenos players' preferences, given the only opponent the Imperium seems able to defeat is Chaos* (after three books).

The Imperium wins a victory against the Tau in Tactica Aeronautica. Though the Tau claimed strategic victory based on supposedly effecting a change in the Imperium's force positioning, their force was nearly wiped out and they lost another one of their supposedly new Custodian class battleship size carriers. Given another Custodian was lost during the Taros campaign of Imperial Armour 3, it is not exactly an auspicious start for the class.

The Anphelion Project was not exactly an Imperial defeat because the Tyranids are destroyed in the subsequent Exterminatus and it was all revealed to be part of some internal politics within the Inquisition.

Harriticus wrote:I heard Volume 12 is called the Morros Incident. Any word on who the opponent is? I suppose only Dark Eldar/Necrons are left now.

It'd actually be quite cool of them to expand upon one of the lesser but powerful alien empires mentioned. Ulumeathic League, Dracolith Church, Reek Worldweave, Hrud, Draxian Hegemony, Barghesi Hordes, or someone new. Of course that won't happen....

They could expand, in background. Models? Unlikely as they won't have enough to form a army.

chaos0xomega wrote:Then you should pay more attention:

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/rumours-news-previews/216777-imperial-armour-12-forgeworld.html

Nice. The penal troopers are resin....
Any chance on a 40k dungeon styled terrain? AS labyrinth and minotaurs sounds like some would take place inside.

Still, IA 11 is the subject so Alaitoc and a frozen world > Necrons as 3rd party?

-Loki- wrote:It's official, but a supplement (hence why it carries the Warhammer 40000 Supplement tag), so it's not a core book (the rulebook states the rulebook and codices are the core books), thus is something you and your opponent agree to use. But basically, make a list with an without them, and ask your opponent if you can use them.

Seriously? This argument again[i]? It's insipid, legalistic and the kind of arrant pedantry that the 40k game is terribly unsuitable for. You're talking about a game where a roll-off between players is an accepted method of argument resolution, and you've decided to fabricate this complex fantasy of layers of jurisdiction and tiers of officialdom.

My copy just arrived (on a Sunday - gotta love extra Xmas deliveries!). Front cover got a littlle dinged in transit though.

It all looks typically lovely, especially the inner front and back cover pieces (Titans and Elysians booking it across the snow). As Red said earlier, Bran Redmaw looks like fun, as does the IG General. Has the Wraithseer been seen before (not too up on Eldar)? He seems like he'd be amusing to run.

Dissappointed that the Xeno coverage is already over before even the released DE models get a minute in the spotlight. Just putting/hiding them in a second print of a book I already own is lame. So another 5 years with only IG tanks.