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tetrisphreak wrote:

Painnen wrote:

Davor wrote:So lets say this is legit for a minute. It was said that Tyranids and onwards codicies was made with 6th edition in mind.

So that being said starting with Tyranids how was the Tyranid codex made for these rules? What about Necrons since they were not even mentioned in the updated FAQ.

here are just a few that i can think of.

1) Shadows of the Warp + the new +5 psychic power negation ability = very very nice psychic protection.
2) Warriors/Shrikes/Ravagers/Lictors are playable as Instant Death(1) attacks of STR8 won't instant gib them anymore = wider range of sellable models/options to players.
3) The lowly Pyrovore squad can actually be called playable with the D6 "flame" ability they get in CC = a stretch but might sell a model or two.
4) Infiltrators can launch Turn 1 attacks, outlfankers pick whichever small table edge they want to come in = coupled with +2" movement from fleet and you have some serious buffing to reserve lists.
5) Assault weopons give you a +1 attack the turn you charge, as long as you have another primary HtH weopon. Rending claws, Scything Talons, and Boneswords coupled with Devourers, Deathspitters, Impaler Cannons, Psychic Power Shooting attacks, Venom Cannons, etc just got yet another swing at ya.
6) Troops inside of Transports cannot claim objectives. This cannot be overlooked because as your opponent has to calculate when it's a good time to hop out of their cozy rides and start gaining VPs, you are doing it from the get-go as we don't have the vehicles to hide in.

all in all, i think the Leaked Dex has alot of good stuff tucked in it for every codex, not just Nids.

Actually in the Tyranid codex update document it states that tyranids only attack with 'basic strikes' or 'monstrous CCWs' in close combat (depending on what unit is doing the attacking). So even though every weapon in our codex is an assault type weapon, it won't be granting any extra CC attacks.


Here's a note that you may have overlooked -- Monstrous Creatures have multi-targeting (2). A brood of carnifexes remaining stationary can multiple fire at multiple units with all of their twin-linked devourer arms. 2 or more carnifexes in a unit can give up shooting 1 set of devourers to shoot the others at split targets if they move, etc. Adds even more tactical flexibility vs moving and shooting in the game. I approve!

Multi-targeting =/= Divide Fire. As I understand it (could be wrong of course) for a single MC it just means that it gain an exception so it can fire two weapons (on the same target), just like today. Since it cannot carry anymore than two weapons, the only thing they gain is a Tyrant not moving would also allow him to cast one psychic shooting power on top of his two Devourers (unless he will be able to use two psychic powers per turn).

Someone said Infiltrate lets you charge first turn, but I don't see how. As it counts as Deepstrike the infiltrated unit is only able to do a Combat Move and Engage (in other words they can charge 6-8"). Infiltrate is nerfed by this, looks like it didn't really fit into the rule set. The only thing it gains is that the unit cannot be targeted if your opponent goes first, as it's not on the table. No reason at all to use if you go first, as for example Genestealers will move 2" further after a normal deployment and run move.

Outflank however, looks really good. As I read it, correct me if I'm wrong, you place the unit 6" from a short table edge and THEN get your normal move. Which for Genestealers would give them a 22" assault range from the short table edge that they chose, as opposed to the maximum of 18" today (and more like 15" on average).

I've been reading about Entry Point, and I can't get my head around it:

Trygon
"Page 50 - Subterranean Assault
If, when a Trygon (or Trygon Prime) deploys via Deep
Strike mark the position under the creature's base with
a suitable marker. This is an entry point. If a unit is
deployed at this entry point, it may not move on the
same turn it arrives, but may shoot as normal."

Entry Point
"Any unit arriving from reserves can be placed in
6” of a friendly entry point using the normal
rules. Image the entry point as an extension of
the table edge. Even units that were intended to
use a deployment special rule can be placed at an
entry point instead."


Would I be correct assuming that you can outflank from an entry point? And deepstrike? What if the unit deepstriking next to the entry point is within Critical Range, does it scatter?

Looks like they removed the wording that limited the Trygon hole to only work the turn AFTER it arrived, which is a good thing as it was completely useless.

If you remain stationary, you can fire twice as many weapons as your multi-target value says. You can chose to shoot one less shot in order to target any number of units. So a stationary MC would even be able to shoot three targets, as long as it has three different weapons..

What happens with the 1 on the conbat drugs roll. 3d6 fleet, doh. FAQ'd?

Well, last night I played a game with these rules vs forum member Cruentus...my Tyranids vs his BA. This is actually the second time we've attempted this...a few months back we faked a game with the incomplete rumored rules. Obviously this time we had a complete (and somewhat different) ruleset. But interestingly, the game played very similarly.

Some general, stream-of-consciousness observations:

1) Still feels like 40K. Our game moved extremely slowly due to rules lookups (and the sometimes confusing organization of the doc), but I'm confident things would move quickly once we get the system down better. Really, many things are the same as now, they've just been codified better. Once we get the new terminology down I think things will be fairly intuitive.

Oh, and I think a simple cheat sheet would go a *long* way to keeping things moving at a good pace. I highly recommend this for anyone attempting a game.

2) My earlier observation still stands...the increased footspeed is really the most startling thing about the new edition. And it's why Tyranids will be tough in any mission with Seize Ground. Especially with Tervigons in the army, Tyranids can quickly flood objectives with Troops and rack up big leads in points. (This is what happened in both of our games.)

3) Outflank is much better now. You just pick the short edge you want and place within 6" of the edge. You can really pressure your opponent's flank this way, especially if the unit is fast like Genestealers (up to 16" of movement). The one downside is the -1 to reserve rolls, but Tyranids also have ways of countering that if they want (Hive Commander, Lictors, etc.).

4) Shooting certainly got some boosts...meltaguns hitting on a 2+ make for some sad Trygons. :( And really, the EV rule is very simple and takes about 2 additional seconds. I like it a lot.

5) However, CC is very deadly, between fearless units taking critical hits in combat res and non-fearless units only escaping sweeping advances on a 4+ or 5+. The author of this document clearly wants models removed in large bunches and quickly. That smells like GW to me.

6) Tanks are pretty darn tough. I had trouble wrecking Razorbacks in CC with Genestealers. And the new weapon damage result on the chart is a good boost to main battle tanks. It'll be easier keeping the main gun firing under these rules.

I'll probably have more to say later.

gorgon wrote:Well, last night I played a game with these rules vs forum member Cruentus...my Tyranids vs his BA. This is actually the second time we've attempted this...a few months back we faked a game with the incomplete rumored rules. Obviously this time we had a complete (and somewhat different) ruleset. But interestingly, the game played very similarly.

Some general, stream-of-consciousness observations:

1) Still feels like 40K. Our game moved extremely slowly due to rules lookups (and the sometimes confusing organization of the doc), but I'm confident things would move quickly once we get the system down better. Really, many things are the same as now, they've just been codified better. Once we get the new terminology down I think things will be fairly intuitive.

Oh, and I think a simple cheat sheet would go a *long* way to keeping things moving at a good pace. I highly recommend this for anyone attempting a game.

2) My earlier observation still stands...the increased footspeed is really the most startling thing about the new edition. And it's why Tyranids will be tough in any mission with Seize Ground. Especially with Tervigons in the army, Tyranids can quickly flood objectives with Troops and rack up big leads in points. (This is what happened in both of our games.)

3) Outflank is much better now. You just pick the short edge you want and place within 6" of the edge. You can really pressure your opponent's flank this way, especially if the unit is fast like Genestealers (up to 16" of movement). The one downside is the -1 to reserve rolls, but Tyranids also have ways of countering that if they want (Hive Commander, Lictors, etc.).

4) Shooting certainly got some boosts...meltaguns hitting on a 2+ make for some sad Trygons. :( And really, the EV rule is very simple and takes about 2 additional seconds. I like it a lot.

5) However, CC is very deadly, between fearless units taking critical hits in combat res and non-fearless units only escaping sweeping advances on a 4+ or 5+. The author of this document clearly wants models removed in large bunches and quickly. That smells like GW to me.

6) Tanks are pretty darn tough. I had trouble wrecking Razorbacks in CC with Genestealers. And the new weapon damage result on the chart is a good boost to main battle tanks. It'll be easier keeping the main gun firing under these rules.

I'll probably have more to say later.

Thanks for the inputs, I plan on doing a game or two tomorrow with these rules. You mentioned a cheat sheet, I've been taking notes on what I think will be pertinent issues in-game but generally, what do you think we should have listed for quick reference? Movement values, move/assault/shooting actions, etc?

How did you deal with contesting? I haven't scoured the Seize Ground section of the rules yet (i will shortly) but is there anything in there about an objective contested (unlikely with the shooting and CC being so deadly, but possible) during the scoring phase of the turn?


Edit - one other thing - Would you say the game is equally as fun, less fun, or more fun than before in your (admittedly brief) trial run of these rules?

N.I.B. wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Painnen wrote:

Davor wrote:So lets say this is legit for a minute. It was said that Tyranids and onwards codicies was made with 6th edition in mind.

So that being said starting with Tyranids how was the Tyranid codex made for these rules? What about Necrons since they were not even mentioned in the updated FAQ.

here are just a few that i can think of.

1) Shadows of the Warp + the new +5 psychic power negation ability = very very nice psychic protection.
2) Warriors/Shrikes/Ravagers/Lictors are playable as Instant Death(1) attacks of STR8 won't instant gib them anymore = wider range of sellable models/options to players.
3) The lowly Pyrovore squad can actually be called playable with the D6 "flame" ability they get in CC = a stretch but might sell a model or two.
4) Infiltrators can launch Turn 1 attacks, outlfankers pick whichever small table edge they want to come in = coupled with +2" movement from fleet and you have some serious buffing to reserve lists.
5) Assault weopons give you a +1 attack the turn you charge, as long as you have another primary HtH weopon. Rending claws, Scything Talons, and Boneswords coupled with Devourers, Deathspitters, Impaler Cannons, Psychic Power Shooting attacks, Venom Cannons, etc just got yet another swing at ya.
6) Troops inside of Transports cannot claim objectives. This cannot be overlooked because as your opponent has to calculate when it's a good time to hop out of their cozy rides and start gaining VPs, you are doing it from the get-go as we don't have the vehicles to hide in.

all in all, i think the Leaked Dex has alot of good stuff tucked in it for every codex, not just Nids.

Actually in the Tyranid codex update document it states that tyranids only attack with 'basic strikes' or 'monstrous CCWs' in close combat (depending on what unit is doing the attacking). So even though every weapon in our codex is an assault type weapon, it won't be granting any extra CC attacks.


Here's a note that you may have overlooked -- Monstrous Creatures have multi-targeting (2). A brood of carnifexes remaining stationary can multiple fire at multiple units with all of their twin-linked devourer arms. 2 or more carnifexes in a unit can give up shooting 1 set of devourers to shoot the others at split targets if they move, etc. Adds even more tactical flexibility vs moving and shooting in the game. I approve!

Multi-targeting =/= Divide Fire. As I understand it (could be wrong of course) for a single MC it just means that it gain an exception so it can fire two weapons (on the same target), just like today. Since it cannot carry anymore than two weapons, the only thing they gain is a Tyrant not moving would also allow him to cast one psychic shooting power on top of his two Devourers (unless he will be able to use two psychic powers per turn).

Someone said Infiltrate lets you charge first turn, but I don't see how. As it counts as Deepstrike the infiltrated unit is only able to do a Combat Move and Engage (in other words they can charge 6-8"). Infiltrate is nerfed by this, looks like it didn't really fit into the rule set. The only thing it gains is that the unit cannot be targeted if your opponent goes first, as it's not on the table. No reason at all to use if you go first, as for example Genestealers will move 2" further after a normal deployment and run move.

Outflank however, looks really good. As I read it, correct me if I'm wrong, you place the unit 6" from a short table edge and THEN get your normal move. Which for Genestealers would give them a 22" assault range from the short table edge that they chose, as opposed to the maximum of 18" today (and more like 15" on average).

I've been reading about Entry Point, and I can't get my head around it:

Trygon
"Page 50 - Subterranean Assault
If, when a Trygon (or Trygon Prime) deploys via Deep
Strike mark the position under the creature's base with
a suitable marker. This is an entry point. If a unit is
deployed at this entry point, it may not move on the
same turn it arrives, but may shoot as normal."

Entry Point
"Any unit arriving from reserves can be placed in
6” of a friendly entry point using the normal
rules. Image the entry point as an extension of
the table edge. Even units that were intended to
use a deployment special rule can be placed at an
entry point instead."


Would I be correct assuming that you can outflank from an entry point? And deepstrike? What if the unit deepstriking next to the entry point is within Critical Range, does it scatter?

Looks like they removed the wording that limited the Trygon hole to only work the turn AFTER it arrived, which is a good thing as it was completely useless.

Carnifex can have bio plasma so 3. Heck if you count the Hive Tyrants psychic ones he has 5.

I just realized something and it makes me giddy...

With the new system of bidding for the first go, what a strategic choice my opponent has to make if I use the Stormlord or another character that steals initiative on more than a 6+?

Does he bid low, hoping that I overbid and he gets a bunch of rerolls, knowing that I may just end up going first anyway?

Anpu-adom wrote:I just realized something and it makes me giddy...

With the new system of bidding for the first go, what a strategic choice my opponent has to make if I use the Stormlord or another character that steals initiative on more than a 6+?

Does he bid low, hoping that I overbid and he gets a bunch of rerolls, knowing that I may just end up going first anyway?

Except you wouldn't get choice of first turn (the winner of the bidding war can choose to go second, don't forget).
You would however get 25% of the S. Points that the loser received on a 4+, making a high bid something less of an issue because you'll also get stratagems to help out your army.

Vect from DE can do this same thing as well.

tetrisphreak wrote: Thanks for the inputs, I plan on doing a game or two tomorrow with these rules. You mentioned a cheat sheet, I've been taking notes on what I think will be pertinent issues in-game but generally, what do you think we should have listed for quick reference? Movement values, move/assault/shooting actions, etc?

How did you deal with contesting? I haven't scoured the Seize Ground section of the rules yet (i will shortly) but is there anything in there about an objective contested (unlikely with the shooting and CC being so deadly, but possible) during the scoring phase of the turn?

Edit - one other thing - Would you say the game is equally as fun, less fun, or more fun than before in your (admittedly brief) trial run of these rules?

Regarding the cheat sheet, I'll work on that today and then post page numbers of what I think would have been handy for us.

Here's an interesting point re: contesting. The rules only say you have to be within 3" to claim the points (which are claimed only by you at the beginning of the Movement phase in your own turn). There's nothing we could find that says enemy units within 3" prevent this from happening. Note that if both players had units in range at the end of the game, for instance, they'd both score their points, creating kind of a "draw" situation. Obviously though during the middle parts of the game this won't work out that way.

We had at least as much fun as with 5th, and maybe more. I think with more practice with the system and less time with our noses in the rulebook, it'd be a slam dunk for being more fun. Cruentus had some bad luck during the game, but was still very positive afterward. Keep in mind we both go back to 2nd edition, so I think it's possible we're biased toward a little more complexity and fun, flavorful rules. Still, I think it's a pretty tight system and more intuitive in some ways. Big stuff is now easier to hit. That seems like an obvious and simple statement, but during the game it's just kind of refreshing somehow.

Here's a minor nugget that not everyone may have noticed. In CC, when the defenders react, the rules say you just move everything into base contact where possible. There's no 6" limitation...you just move it all in. Oh, and no move through cover for MCs now. I found this out after deploying my Trygons behind some difficult terrain. Oops.

Yeah, i picked out the loss of automatic MTC with MC's in my read through. Still, I'll take it since they're not slowed down when they do a charge, they only can't run/cruise through terrain.

I looked over the Seize Ground section right after i posted and i noticed a paragraph that shed some light on contesting:

"A mission objective can be claimed several times during a game cycle if several units that act in different turns are close by."

That means I can score, and you can score, on one objective, if we're both duking it out in a CC that won't end. Tarpitting can effectively be a tactic, especially if you're tarpitting an elite dreadnought (non-scoring) with a tactical squad (scoring).

The more I read the more i'm into these...which means GW will probably curb-stomp my expectations when they release something different in 6 months.

gorgon wrote:

Here's a minor nugget that not everyone may have noticed. In CC, when the defenders react, the rules say you just move everything into base contact where possible. There's no 6" limitation...you just move it all in.

It's in the Pile In rules section. Defenders React is just the heading of the section.

Aha! I think what threw us was that the summary on 56 didn't reference Pile-In under Defenders React (although note that it does under Break Up). So we assumed the Pile-In stuff on 57 referred to only the post-combat move and didn't read that opening paragraph closely.

N.I.B. wrote:
I've been reading about Entry Point, and I can't get my head around it:

Trygon
"Page 50 - Subterranean Assault
....

Looks like they removed the wording that limited the Trygon hole to only work the turn AFTER it arrived, which is a good thing as it was completely useless.

If I understand this correctly, it means 'nid players can:

1) Allocate 3 reserve dice to a Lictor/Deathlearper in turn 2 and bring it on right next to an enemy.
2) Charge it into combat with someone suitably weak and prevent the Lictor getting shot at for a turn (using flesh hooks as 5th ed assault grenades)
3) Deep-strike a Trygon Prime wtihin 6" of the Lictor on Turn 3 without scatter. Use multi-targeting (2) to fire its twelve shots twice or Engage another target within 6" of the Trygon.
4) Bring Carnifex with frag spines and double ScyTals through the Trygon tunnel on turn 3 also. Charge something within 6" or Ram something within 12".

xttz wrote:

N.I.B. wrote:
I've been reading about Entry Point, and I can't get my head around it:

Trygon
"Page 50 - Subterranean Assault
....

Looks like they removed the wording that limited the Trygon hole to only work the turn AFTER it arrived, which is a good thing as it was completely useless.

If I understand this correctly, it means 'nid players can:

1) Allocate 3 reserve dice to a Lictor/Deathlearper in turn 2 and bring it on right next to an enemy.
2) Charge it into combat with someone suitably weak and prevent the Lictor getting shot at for a turn (using flesh hooks as 5th ed assault grenades)
3) Deep-strike a Trygon Prime wtihin 6" of the Lictor on Turn 3 without scatter. Use multi-targeting (2) to fire its twelve shots twice or Engage another target within 6" of the Trygon.
4) Bring Carnifex with frag spines and double ScyTals through the Trygon tunnel on turn 3 also. Charge something within 6" or Ram something within 12".

Only thing is you have to wait one turn after the fex arrives to assault or ram. Tunnel update specificly disallows moving the turn you show up. Would be pretty smexy with a trio of Dakka fexes though. As a side note, I also like how the +1 to reserves from pheremone trail does not require the lictor to be on the board anymore.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

xttz wrote:

N.I.B. wrote:
I've been reading about Entry Point, and I can't get my head around it:

Trygon
"Page 50 - Subterranean Assault
....

Looks like they removed the wording that limited the Trygon hole to only work the turn AFTER it arrived, which is a good thing as it was completely useless.

If I understand this correctly, it means 'nid players can:

1) Allocate 3 reserve dice to a Lictor/Deathlearper in turn 2 and bring it on right next to an enemy.
2) Charge it into combat with someone suitably weak and prevent the Lictor getting shot at for a turn (using flesh hooks as 5th ed assault grenades)
3) Deep-strike a Trygon Prime wtihin 6" of the Lictor on Turn 3 without scatter. Use multi-targeting (2) to fire its twelve shots twice or Engage another target within 6" of the Trygon.
4) Bring Carnifex with frag spines and double ScyTals through the Trygon tunnel on turn 3 also. Charge something within 6" or Ram something within 12".

Only thing is you have to wait one turn after the fex arrives to assault or ram. Tunnel update specificly disallows moving the turn you show up. Would be pretty smexy with a trio of Dakka fexes though. As a side note, I also like how the +1 to reserves from pheremone trail does not require the lictor to be on the board anymore.

HOLY CRABS! Lictors are GOOD!

Well A lictor is good.

Not scary good since they can still be DF'd into the ground when they show up, but between giving +1 to reserves from the get-go, being ID'd not as big of a threat anymore, and being able to assault the turn you arrive from deep-striking, they would no longer be "LOL, yeah right" units.

ChocolateGork wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

xttz wrote:

N.I.B. wrote:
I've been reading about Entry Point, and I can't get my head around it:

Trygon
"Page 50 - Subterranean Assault
....

Looks like they removed the wording that limited the Trygon hole to only work the turn AFTER it arrived, which is a good thing as it was completely useless.

If I understand this correctly, it means 'nid players can:

1) Allocate 3 reserve dice to a Lictor/Deathlearper in turn 2 and bring it on right next to an enemy.
2) Charge it into combat with someone suitably weak and prevent the Lictor getting shot at for a turn (using flesh hooks as 5th ed assault grenades)
3) Deep-strike a Trygon Prime wtihin 6" of the Lictor on Turn 3 without scatter. Use multi-targeting (2) to fire its twelve shots twice or Engage another target within 6" of the Trygon.
4) Bring Carnifex with frag spines and double ScyTals through the Trygon tunnel on turn 3 also. Charge something within 6" or Ram something within 12".

Only thing is you have to wait one turn after the fex arrives to assault or ram. Tunnel update specificly disallows moving the turn you show up. Would be pretty smexy with a trio of Dakka fexes though. As a side note, I also like how the +1 to reserves from pheremone trail does not require the lictor to be on the board anymore.

HOLY CRABS! Lictors are GOOD!

Well A lictor is good.

The doom of malanti also causes twice as many wounds as before and can't have all 10 of its own taken at once. This is in a game where we're going to see far fewer armies sitting inside of transports. Getting assaulted before the second shooting round could hurt, but having that many wounds with the new ID system is going to be ridiculous. I suspect the doom of malanti just became one of the most overpowered models in the game. Sorry celestine, you just couldn't keep up with that level of cheese.

xttz wrote:
If I understand this correctly, it means 'nid players can:

3) Deep-strike a Trygon Prime wtihin 6" of the Lictor on Turn 3 without scatter. Use multi-targeting (2) to fire its twelve shots twice or Engage another target within 6" of the Trygon.

Doesn't it say right there in Multi-targeting that a model still cannot fire the same weapon twice?

ShumaGorath wrote:
The doom of malanti also causes twice as many wounds as before and can't have all 10 of its own taken at once. This is in a game where we're going to see far fewer armies sitting inside of transports. Getting assaulted before the second shooting round could hurt, but having that many wounds with the new ID system is going to be ridiculous. I suspect the doom of malanti just became one of the most overpowered models in the game. Sorry celestine, you just couldn't keep up with that level of cheese.

It will be pretty rediculous, especially if Spirit Leech doesn't get changed to be a psychic power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Juicifer wrote:

xttz wrote:
If I understand this correctly, it means 'nid players can:

3) Deep-strike a Trygon Prime wtihin 6" of the Lictor on Turn 3 without scatter. Use multi-targeting (2) to fire its twelve shots twice or Engage another target within 6" of the Trygon.

Doesn't it say right there in Multi-targeting that a model still cannot fire the same weapon twice?

Yes that is true.

After reading a few of these "new" rules I find myself more and more confused. Maybe that's because I'm a new gamer but I just find it very confusing and hard to grasp. Why make it more complicated? I mean maybe it has to do with the fact that I've only played 5th ED.

Fralethepalewhale wrote:After reading a few of these "new" rules I find myself more and more confused. Maybe that's because I'm a new gamer but I just find it very confusing and hard to grasp. Why make it more complicated? I mean maybe it has to do with the fact that I've only played 5th ED.

Fifth edition is an intensely simple but very complex game. There is a lot of bs and nagging rules because the system isn't consolidated or written very well. Theres not a tremendous amount that you can actually do in a game of 40k, currently. In a lot of ways it plays itself for you while you eat popcorn. This new system seems more complicated, but it's just explicit about what happens and where. There are far fewer assumptions that the player has to make and the player is actually given legitimate options during play. It doesn't look like it'll play very slowly though by comparison; once learned.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Not scary good since they can still be DF'd into the ground when they show up, but between giving +1 to reserves from the get-go, being ID'd not as big of a threat anymore, and being able to assault the turn you arrive from deep-striking, they would no longer be "LOL, yeah right" units.

I don't quite understand which units can use Defensive Fire. The codex updates only give Coteaz the Overwatch rule, so does that mean no one else can use DF until we start seeing more 6th ed codexes released?

ShumaGorath wrote:
The doom of malanti also causes twice as many wounds as before and can't have all 10 of its own taken at once. This is in a game where we're going to see far fewer armies sitting inside of transports. Getting assaulted before the second shooting round could hurt, but having that many wounds with the new ID system is going to be ridiculous. I suspect the doom of malanti just became one of the most overpowered models in the game. Sorry celestine, you just couldn't keep up with that level of cheese.

Keep in mind that the 'doubled wounds' thing is because it lost the ability to leech wounds in an opponents turn. I suspect this is a result of the new rules for three or more players in a game.
Also thanks to the way shooting and assault have been swapped around its much easier to assault the Doom without being in Leech range first. Doing a ton of wounds in melee isn't too hard, esepcially if he hasn't had time to charge up yet.

I'd also like to amend my earlier plan:

1) Allocate 3 reserve dice to a Deathleaper in turn 2 and bring it on right next to an enemy.
2) Charge it into combat with someone suitably weak and prevent the it getting shot at for a turn. Failing that, rely on the +2 to cover saves and Veiled(3) to reduce incoming fire.
3) Deep-strike a Trygon Prime wtihin 6" of the DL on Turn 3 without scatter.
4) Bring through any of the following:
Dakkafex brood with bio-plasma and devourers to hit things at point-blank range (EV 3 or lower).
Warrior brood with deathspitters and boneswords
T-fex or pyrovores to flush out troops in cover
Tervigons
Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord (to give PE to someone who can shoot)
Some very accurate Zoanthropes (hitting most vehicles within 12" on a 2+).

Hell if you dropped 2 Trygons like that you could even bring in Venomthropes to cover everything nearby. Tyranid all-reserve armies just became very flexible indeed.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fralethepalewhale wrote:After reading a few of these "new" rules I find myself more and more confused. Maybe that's because I'm a new gamer but I just find it very confusing and hard to grasp. Why make it more complicated? I mean maybe it has to do with the fact that I've only played 5th ED.

Fifth edition is an intensely simple but very complex game. There is a lot of bs and nagging rules because the system isn't consolidated or written very well. Theres not a tremendous amount that you can actually do in a game of 40k, currently. In a lot of ways it plays itself for you while you eat popcorn. This new system seems more complicated, but it's just explicit about what happens and where. There are far fewer assumptions that the player has to make and the player is actually given legitimate options during play. It doesn't look like it'll play very slowly though by comparison; once learned.

They seem to be doing a good job of putting as many special rules as possible into the main rules set, rather than having each codex do its own thing. This is great as it helps people understand exactly what an opponent can do when they haven't played against that army before. It also reduces the scope for rules arguements in future, with every new codex using established ones.

xttz wrote: Hell if you dropped 2 Trygons like that you could even bring in Venomthropes to cover everything nearby. Tyranid all-reserve armies just became very flexible indeed.

I ran reserve Tyranid armies all last year and decided that Venomthropes could be golden if only I could control reserves in terms of timing and accuracy. These rules make that possible, so I will definitely be trying them out.

xttz wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Not scary good since they can still be DF'd into the ground when they show up, but between giving +1 to reserves from the get-go, being ID'd not as big of a threat anymore, and being able to assault the turn you arrive from deep-striking, they would no longer be "LOL, yeah right" units.

I don't quite understand which units can use Defensive Fire. The codex updates only give Coteaz the Overwatch rule, so does that mean no one else can use DF until we start seeing more 6th ed codexes released?

- Overwatch units have permission to use it when an enemy unit moves within 12" of your unit, so yeah..Coteaz.

- You can give both sides Overwatch when a unit is within 3" of an objective by selecting the Fire at Will strategem

- You are given permission to use Defensive fire against a unit that deepstrikes within 12" of that unit. There are limitations to this as well.

- And there are one or two other special situations that I can't think of at the moment..neither particularly overpowering. The main thread on the PDF has a nice little argument and the exact situations you can use it spelled out on like pages 48-50 of the thread...somewhere in there.

I suspect the doom of malanti just became one of the most overpowered models in the game.

Well, to use the leech ability it has do DS withhin 6" of the enemy. Defensive Fire can hurt it badly before it uses the power, especially if the player tries to leech multiple units at once.

Except that spore pods deny defensive fire against the pod. And unlike the 5th ed FAQ, no where does it say that troops disembarking from a transport that arrived via deep strike also count as deep striking. So currently a spore pod will give Doom, or anything else that steps out of one immunity from defensive fire.

Darkseid wrote:Well, to use the leech ability it has do DS withhin 6" of the enemy. Defensive Fire can hurt it badly before it uses the power, especially if the player tries to leech multiple units at once.

The Mycetic Spore (the transport it uses) is not subject to Defensive Fire. Were that leaves the unit inside is anyones guess.
I'm not completely sure of the new disembark rule, but it seems now that there is no such thing - you disembark and move in one and the same action, meaning you can't get those 2" extra you get today, meaning you're right about the Doom's thread range when it deepstrikes, it can't be more than 6" from the spore.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Except that spore pods deny defensive fire against the pod. And unlike the 5th ed FAQ, no where does it say that troops disembarking from a transport that arrived via deep strike also count as deep striking. So currently a spore pod will give Doom, or anything else that steps out of one immunity from defensive fire.

N.I.B. wrote:The Mycetic Spore (the transport it uses) is not subject to Defensive Fire. Were that leaves the unit inside is anyones guess.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. This sounds very powerful, not only for the Doom but all poding units. Maybe I'll get some more large drop pods form FW if this rules hit the shelf, as the prospect of multiple Furiosos poding into the enemy lines at turn 1 pleases me greatly.

Well, I'd wait and see what happens with 6th...and the FAQ that will follow it. It's fuzzy enough that it could swing either way if it gets clarified.

There is another indirect way around it. A unit can only use DF against one deepstriking unit in a turn. Depending on what else you drop in with the Doom, you can force some hard choices for them on what to spend that DF on.

KplKeegan wrote:If I heard correctly, does 6th edition really frown on gunlines? With the Evasion Chart and anything standing still gets hit on a +2? But the Rapid Fire Weapons changes sound nice though, which might give those weapon types more clout instead of special weapons.

A good thing is that regular infantry are more potent.

A potentially bad thing is Infantry using Heavy Weapons. Heavy Weapon Teams, Devastators, etc. might have a really hard time.

I'd think that these types of units are the prime candidates for receiving the Overwatch rule. Because I don't think that the leaked FAQs are any where near complete.