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Palindrome wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Davor wrote:What I don't understand is, if it's a fake, how come they are taken down then? I am sure when the fake BA codex came out, it was never taken down, it was there for all to download.

So why all the hoopla to take it off the net if it's a fake?

The point is that its GW's intellectual property no matter if the text is a hoax or not.

Interestingly enough, it may not be. You can't copyright game mechanics.

References are made to GW trademarks so....

Then that would mean EVERY SINGLE home made codex or rules would have to be taken down off the net. When you let something slide, it's hard to prove to the courts you are protecting your IP. Again if the GW let the fake BA go, why not the other rule set? How come I see Tyraind Home made codicies and Dark Angels home made codicies all over the net? No GW is not protectiong it's IP if this is fake.

If it's fake then it was the person who put it on the first place to take it down so it would look like GW did this. GW doesn't pick and choose who uses the IP without permission. So it's either fake and the origianl person took it down, or It's real and GW took it down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am curious what page is the FOC on? Is it still the same FOC or did they go to % system? Please show me a page number so I can go it.

Thanks.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Codex marine player here. I pay 250 for a fist, meltagun, and a missile launcher in a rhino. What does a melta vet squad in chimera cost again?

Really? Take your Codex back. You got your points values wrong

And if you want to go down that route...

Chaos Marine player here. I pay even more for the same squad and don't get combat tactics or ATSKNF. In fact, to get anything similar I have to pay even more points.

So, stop that. Right now.

10 marines - 170
pfist - 25
missile - 0
melta - 5
Combi melta - 10
rhino w/ dozer blade - 40
-250

Nope. 250. You're right in that you pay slightly more, though you get higher leadership, the ability to take only five and still be useful, dual short ranged weapons if you want (instead of an illogical and bad long/short mix), and twice as many close combat attacks so I would say its a wash. Chaos marines are significantly better at actually taking objectives since they can be purpose built for it and perform much better in close combat, but they don't do long range quite as efficiently (though a 170 point missile is pretty awful). Either way you have numerous much better troop choices that make it so that you aren't forced into taking your most basic troop, an option that I don't have.

Melta vets are more efficient than anything you can field as well, so I don't get the outrage.

Hmm, not sure if you can list points.

Yeah specific upgrade points costs is a no-no. All you can do is post a unit's total cost, if you post points at all.

ShumaGorath wrote:

10 marines - 170
pfist - 25
missile - 0
melta - 5
Combi melta - 10
rhino w/ dozer blade - 40
-250

Nope. 250. You're right in that you pay slightly more, though you get higher leadership, the ability to take only five and still be useful, dual short ranged weapons if you want (instead of an illogical and bad long/short mix), and twice as many close combat attacks so I would say its a wash. Chaos marines are significantly better at actually taking objectives since they can be purpose built for it and perform much better in close combat, but they don't do long range quite as efficiently (though a 170 point missile is pretty awful). Either way you have numerous much better troop choices that make it so that you aren't forced into taking your most basic troop, an option that I don't have.

Melta vets are more efficient than anything you can field as well, so I don't get the outrage.

Melta vets? 170 pts for 10 guys with guard stats with three melta and a chimera. Our power fist isn't as good. We don't have a 3+ save. We don't have ATSKNF. We die in hand to hand with everything except Tau. Not feeling your pain, sorry.

Tebrey wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

10 marines - 170
pfist - 25
missile - 0
melta - 5
Combi melta - 10
rhino w/ dozer blade - 40
-250

Nope. 250. You're right in that you pay slightly more, though you get higher leadership, the ability to take only five and still be useful, dual short ranged weapons if you want (instead of an illogical and bad long/short mix), and twice as many close combat attacks so I would say its a wash. Chaos marines are significantly better at actually taking objectives since they can be purpose built for it and perform much better in close combat, but they don't do long range quite as efficiently (though a 170 point missile is pretty awful). Either way you have numerous much better troop choices that make it so that you aren't forced into taking your most basic troop, an option that I don't have.

Melta vets are more efficient than anything you can field as well, so I don't get the outrage.

Melta vets? 170 pts for 10 guys with guard stats with three melta and a chimera. Our power fist isn't as good. We don't have a 3+ save. We don't have ATSKNF. We die in hand to hand with everything except Tau. Not feeling your pain, sorry.

Then why do my opponents groan when I throw down my melta vets?? Because they are awesome. I dont want them to have 3+ armor cause if you assault them I want them to die so I can shoot you in my next turn. 3 bs 4 meltas is kinda dumb on a troop choice. Most other armies need to use another slot to get that kinda destruction.

Poor orks i feel your pain. Getting your nob sniped on a fat squad of boys ruins orks.

Davor wrote:

Then that would mean EVERY SINGLE home made codex or rules would have to be taken down off the net. When you let something slide, it's hard to prove to the courts you are protecting your IP. Again if the GW let the fake BA go, why not the other rule set? How come I see Tyraind Home made codicies and Dark Angels home made codicies all over the net? No GW is not protectiong it's IP if this is fake.

If it's fake then it was the person who put it on the first place to take it down so it would look like GW did this. GW doesn't pick and choose who uses the IP without permission. So it's either fake and the origianl person took it down, or It's real and GW took it down.

My point is that there are some of GW's IP in this document and as GW likes to throw its weight around people will get nervous about hosting such a high profile leak and they may remove it of their own accord.

Links are apparently rapidly disappearing though which suggests GW's direct involvement but I have yet to hear of anyone saying that they had had direct contact with GW over this.

ShumaGorath wrote:Null zone is only realistically viable as a psychic power in support of th/ss termies. It aids them in making the best out of their limited high power attacks. It's also why you see the librarian piled in with vulkan which further enhances their ability to deal damage. Thats the monobuild. It's also boring and I don't play salamanaders. Null zone is almost useless in most other scenarios as generic marines don't bring the level of ap1-2 to that makes it functional or worthwhile outside of combat and they don't possess any other worthwhile CC units in the codex.

You are saying these things as if there is some rule that prevents generic Marines from taking lots of AP 1/2. What rule is that? Last time I checked, las/plas Razorbacks are still legal (and substantially buffed for vanilla SM under these rules). Every Tactical squad can have three AP 1/2 weapons per ten guys. Sternguard, Bikes, Command Squads, Devastators, etc. can all take more than that. It's possible that some element of your army composition makes Null Zone weak, but for lots of armies it can be a real powerhouse.

ShumaGorath wrote:A SM librarian is significantly less useful then a BA or GK libby (in fact it's straight up more expensive then the GK libby while worse) and it's significantly worse then a rune priest or the special character variations of those.

Last time I checked, an SM Librarian was 100 points base and a GK Librarian was 150 points base. The GK Librarian certainly has access to some strong powers, but so does the SM one. I think the GK Librarian probably is better-- but then again it costs 50% more points! As for BA, I've always felt that my SM Librarian powers were superior to BA or SW ones. Null Zone and Gate of Infinity are both game-changers.

ShumaGorath wrote:Being mathematically unable to beat IG mech parking lots or draigowing is pretty damning, even my local FLGS has plenty of those.

Can you explain this? It doesn't match my experience. I've won several games with my vanilla SM vs. mech IG before, despite this being "mathematically impossible"-- in fact I think my win rate against that Codex is rather favorable as a whole. In fact, I'm overall more scared of non-mechanized IG than I am of mechanized IG. I've yet to play against a true Draigowing army, but I certainly think that my Codex has the right counters available. I suspect it would be a fun match.

No BT FAQ... does this mean that the new BT codex will launch at the same time as 6th?

Yeah i have a challenging time with just about every army with my mech guard. Its never an instant win. Thats why the transport nerf sucks because now I'm really going to have a hard time. Tac marines can easily kill a chimera with krak grenades on the charge especially if its backed by a fist. Chimeras just make sure my boys make it somewhere to get atleast a shot off. 3+ is not to be underestimated. When you pop the tin can my troops will lose to shooting and assault. Marines stand a chance.

michaelcycle wrote:Yeah i have a challenging time with just about every army with my mech guard. Its never an instant win. Thats why the transport nerf sucks because now I'm really going to have a hard time. Tac marines can easily kill a chimera with krak grenades on the charge especially if its backed by a fist. Chimeras just make sure my boys make it somewhere to get atleast a shot off. 3+ is not to be underestimated. When you pop the tin can my troops will lose to shooting and assault. Marines stand a chance.

And now with charge by chance if the marines do wreck the chimera in close combat, and block the access points, they can immediately engage the meltavets. Or alternatively defensive fire and rapid-fire bolters at them.

The upside is that if the chimera moves tactical marines need a 5+ to hit in close combat.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:No BT FAQ... does this mean that the new BT codex will launch at the same time as 6th?

Very well it does since the BT is suppose to be the next 40K release. Why would they need a FAQ update. Necrons didn't get one either. Another reason why this can be real. If it's fake how would the faker know not to include BT and Necrons in the codex? If fake this is one smart cookie not an idiot/looser like alot of people on the internet are saying.

Oh well, if this is fake, I will be using this ruleset in my games. I am so sick and tired of the "vehicle rush" and the ALL MIGHTY SPACE MARINES hiding and cowering in vehicles when their fluff says they should be out in the thick of things in battle.

Just imagine if the Ultramarine move was based on the way people played. 85% of the movie would be the SM in the vehicle while the battle is raging on outside.

Blast weapons. Wow! Hit with BS as normal, if you miss, scatter the number x 2 (always scatters). So if you hit on a 4, you can only ever scatter 4″ max!

This makes me weep. Fire Prism blasts hurt enough as it is.

You are saying these things as if there is some rule that prevents generic Marines from taking lots of AP 1/2. What rule is that? Last time I checked, las/plas Razorbacks are still legal (and substantially buffed for vanilla SM under these rules). Every Tactical squad can have three AP 1/2 weapons per ten guys. Sternguard, Bikes, Command Squads, Devastators, etc. can all take more than that. It's possible that some element of your army composition makes Null Zone weak, but for lots of armies it can be a real powerhouse.

It's not synergistic or cost effective. It's range is too short to be used well with most of the vehicle weapon platforms in the SM codex. Tac squads can realistically throw out 2 ap2 weapons in a turn once per game. If you're in range of a double tap plasma or melta shot you've likely moved there which precludes firing the heavy. Once you've done that your combi is done and you'll probably be either dead or in close combat in the next turn. If your're sitting back with a heavy then you're wasting a significant number of points on one heavy weapon. It can be used to effect, but the costing issues with SM dev squads and laser preds makes it difficult to bring a meaningful volume of ranged ap2. Cover saves make null zone significantly less useful outside of combat in fifth as well.

Null zone got good because it was the key to beating the other players squad of th/ss terms. As meta shifted away from invuln reliant death stars the utility started to vanish. It's next to useless against palladins (outside of the vulkan/libby/th/ss monobuild), and the entirety of the IG and space wolf armies. It's got utility against DE transports and killing daemons at least.

Last time I checked, an SM Librarian was 100 points base and a GK Librarian was 150 points base. The GK Librarian certainly has access to some strong powers, but so does the SM one. I think the GK Librarian probably is better-- but then again it costs 50% more points! As for BA, I've always felt that my SM Librarian powers were superior to BA or SW ones. Null Zone and Gate of Infinity are both game-changers.

The GK librarian is base more expensive because it comes with upgrades included in cost. To equip a codex librarian in the same way is ~20 points more expensive. The codex librarian also doesn't have the aegis or hammerhand.

Can you explain this? It doesn't match my experience. I've won several games with my vanilla SM vs. mech IG before, despite this being "mathematically impossible"-- in fact I think my win rate against that Codex is rather favorable as a whole.

Maybe the local meta is particularly cruel. My friend Erik who is the primary IG competition has a mech list that has made it to the top couple of tables in round 2 of ard boyz the last few years. 2 demolishers, a plastmatank, hydras, stracken, vendettas, and lots of chimera melta vets at 1850. It's not a standard leaf blower, but I don't believe he has lost a single game against codex marines since the debut of the IG codex. He's played quite a few of them.

In fact, I'm overall more scared of non-mechanized IG than I am of mechanized IG. I've yet to play against a true Draigowing army, but I certainly think that my Codex has the right counters available. I suspect it would be a fun match.

You could well have the counters, though given that it takes ~36 bolter shots to wound one palladin and 3 plasma canon wounds to do the same i'd venture a guess that you might not have fun doing so. It's a very frustrating army to play against. I've managed to beat draigowing before, but it requires that my opponent make mistakes in target priority and deployment. It's too easy for them to simply walk towards me and hold down the trigger. Null zone + th/ss can do a lot of damage to a paladin squad, but it's almost the only cost effective counter in the book (drop podding melta or plasma sterns can do well, but it's risky). Most GK players should recognize that and they can decimate assault terms at range in one round of shooting.

Melta vets get better, RTFM.

--Hits tanks and MCs on 2's with their melta.
--Can only fire one melta if chimera moves at combat speed? Combat move out of the hatch, keep the squad leader within 3" of the hatch. Shoot your melta (keeping in mind you will hit tanks and MCs on 2's). Then get back in your tank at consolidation. Your threat range is increased vs the current move 6" and fire if intending to stay embarked.
--Yes you lose the 12" move, disembark and fire. Everyone not in fast transport lost that threat range. But its not as bad since you get a 6" move after the vehicle moves 6". Still less but not all that bad. And unlike current you can get back in your transport if you like.
--Your disembarked squad gets into trouble, like broken, etc. If the squad leader is within 3" of the hatch of a chimera they can hop in and auto regroup.
--Doesn't it suck that you mech IG guys have all these orders you never use cause you want to stay in your tanks? Guess what, disembark, get your orders, get back in if you want. Pretty sweet if you ask me.

winterman wrote:Melta vets get better, RTFM.

--Hits tanks and MCs on 2's with their melta.
--Can only fire one melta if chimera moves at combat speed? Combat move out of the hatch, keep the squad leader within 3" of the hatch. Shoot your melta (keeping in mind you will hit tanks and MCs on 2's). Then get back in your tank at consolidation. Your threat range is increased vs the current move 6" and fire if intending to stay embarked.
--Yes you lose the 12" move, disembark and fire. Everyone not in fast transport lost that threat range. But its not as bad since you get a 6" move after the vehicle moves 6". Still less but not all that bad. And unlike current you can get back in your transport if you like.
--Your disembarked squad gets into trouble, like broken, etc. If the squad leader is within 3" of the hatch of a chimera they can hop in and auto regroup.
--Doesn't it suck that you mech IG guys have all these orders you never use cause you want to stay in your tanks? Guess what, disembark, get your orders, get back in if you want. Pretty sweet if you ask me.

Jumping out, firing, and jumping back in a transport is a very strong tactic. I think it's mitigated by the fact that embarked units cannot score objectives, so there's a balancing act involved.

winterman wrote:Melta vets get better, RTFM.

--Hits tanks and MCs on 2's with their melta.
--Can only fire one melta if chimera moves at combat speed? Combat move out of the hatch, keep the squad leader within 3" of the hatch. Shoot your melta (keeping in mind you will hit tanks and MCs on 2's). Then get back in your tank at consolidation. Your threat range is increased vs the current move 6" and fire if intending to stay embarked.
--Yes you lose the 12" move, disembark and fire. Everyone not in fast transport lost that threat range. But its not as bad since you get a 6" move after the vehicle moves 6". Still less but not all that bad. And unlike current you can get back in your transport if you like.
--Your disembarked squad gets into trouble, like broken, etc. If the squad leader is within 3" of the hatch of a chimera they can hop in and auto regroup.
--Doesn't it suck that you mech IG guys have all these orders you never use cause you want to stay in your tanks? Guess what, disembark, get your orders, get back in if you want. Pretty sweet if you ask me.

That is pretty brutal i didnt catch that embark disembark deal.

tetrisphreak wrote:
Jumping out, firing, and jumping back in a transport is a very strong tactic. I think it's mitigated by the fact that embarked units cannot score objectives, so there's a balancing act involved.

This is very true. I think as a unit mech vet is improved. Compared to the boosts other units got -- perhaps the field is evened out a bit (I am still trying to parse how these rules affects various units in the game, its pretty interesting). As an army, mech vet based armies (aka leaf blower or similar) are probably weakened or has to change its overall strategy and tactics a bit. Decisions to either camp objectives or remove enemies and stay safe in chimeras, etc. But if there's an army with the firepower to remove units trying to rack up objective based VPs, its Mech IG. I can see things like the colossus being much more useful (and effective) with the new emphasis on staying out of transports.

ShumaGorath wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Codex marine player here. I pay 250 for a fist, meltagun, and a missile launcher in a rhino. What does a melta vet squad in chimera cost again?

Really? Take your Codex back. You got your points values wrong

And if you want to go down that route...

Chaos Marine player here. I pay even more for the same squad and don't get combat tactics or ATSKNF. In fact, to get anything similar I have to pay even more points.

So, stop that. Right now.

10 marines - 170
pfist - 25
missile - 0
melta - 5
Combi melta - 10
rhino w/ dozer blade - 40
-250

Nope. 250. You're right in that you pay slightly more, though you get higher leadership, the ability to take only five and still be useful, dual short ranged weapons if you want (instead of an illogical and bad long/short mix), and twice as many close combat attacks so I would say its a wash. Chaos marines are significantly better at actually taking objectives since they can be purpose built for it and perform much better in close combat, but they don't do long range quite as efficiently (though a 170 point missile is pretty awful). Either way you have numerous much better troop choices that make it so that you aren't forced into taking your most basic troop, an option that I don't have.

Melta vets are more efficient than anything you can field as well, so I don't get the outrage.

Your initial statement did not mention a combi-melta or a dozer blade for your Rhino. So going on base values, you are actually paying less. You're moving goalposts so do stop that.

And as mentioned, you're not being forced to take Tactical squads exclusively either. Considering you can put a Captain on a bike and get bikes there. Whereas the CSM codex is pretty much pigeonholed into one or two optimal builds with everything else being significantly underpar compared to everything else. If I'm not fielding a World Eaters or Death Guard army then why must all my troops be Berserkers or Plague Marines in order to be remotely competitive? You also forgot to mention that you can get a variety of heavy weapons for your tactical squad for free.

I'm seriously pondering your issues with IG. I understand your point that C:SM seems to just be generic, overcosted C:SW or C:BA....but in the same respect a lot of CSM players considered C:CSM to be the same compared to C:SM.....they took away all our options and a few months later you rolled out with a whole crapton of the options they removed. Admittedly it's because they switched away from one design ethic to another but still....it's a bit much.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Codex marine player here. I pay 250 for a fist, meltagun, and a missile launcher in a rhino. What does a melta vet squad in chimera cost again?

Really? Take your Codex back. You got your points values wrong

And if you want to go down that route...

Chaos Marine player here. I pay even more for the same squad and don't get combat tactics or ATSKNF. In fact, to get anything similar I have to pay even more points.

So, stop that. Right now.

10 marines - 170
pfist - 25
missile - 0
melta - 5
Combi melta - 10
rhino w/ dozer blade - 40
-250

Nope. 250. You're right in that you pay slightly more, though you get higher leadership, the ability to take only five and still be useful, dual short ranged weapons if you want (instead of an illogical and bad long/short mix), and twice as many close combat attacks so I would say its a wash. Chaos marines are significantly better at actually taking objectives since they can be purpose built for it and perform much better in close combat, but they don't do long range quite as efficiently (though a 170 point missile is pretty awful). Either way you have numerous much better troop choices that make it so that you aren't forced into taking your most basic troop, an option that I don't have.

Melta vets are more efficient than anything you can field as well, so I don't get the outrage.

Your initial statement did not mention a combi-melta or a dozer blade for your Rhino. So going on base values, you are actually paying less. You're moving goalposts so do stop that.

And as mentioned, you're not being forced to take Tactical squads exclusively either. Considering you can put a Captain on a bike and get bikes there. Whereas the CSM codex is pretty much pigeonholed into one or two optimal builds with everything else being significantly underpar compared to everything else. If I'm not fielding a World Eaters or Death Guard army then why must all my troops be Berserkers or Plague Marines in order to be remotely competitive? You also forgot to mention that you can get a variety of heavy weapons for your tactical squad for free.

I'm seriously pondering your issues with IG. I understand your point that C:SM seems to just be generic, overcosted C:SW or C:BA....but in the same respect a lot of CSM players considered C:CSM to be the same compared to C:SM.....they took away all our options and a few months later you rolled out with a whole crapton of the options they removed. Admittedly it's because they switched away from one design ethic to another but still....it's a bit much.

We're well past that argument now You wanted four pages ago. Also, you can't possibly argue that codex marines have more troop options then chaos marines. Chaos has almost twice as many choices and they're universally better.

ShumaGorath wrote:It's not synergistic or cost effective.

Personally I think that 35 points for a lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun on a transport that I want to take anyway is very synergistic and cost-effective.

ShumaGorath wrote:Tac squads can realistically throw out 2 ap2 weapons in a turn once per game. If you're in range of a double tap plasma or melta shot you've likely moved there which precludes firing the heavy. Once you've done that your combi is done and you'll probably be either dead or in close combat in the next turn. If your're sitting back with a heavy then you're wasting a significant number of points on one heavy weapon.

That's why I use Combat Squads. With Combat Squads, my half-squad in the back can fire a heavy weapon, while my half-squad in the front can fire a special and combi when necessary. The squad in the back is only "wasting" four guys, and since they're likely sitting on an objective or in position to move up and claim one it's not much of a "waste!"

ShumaGorath wrote:The costing issues with SM dev squads and laser preds makes it difficult to bring a meaningful volume of ranged ap2. Cover saves make null zone significantly less useful outside of combat in fifth as well.

Auto/las preds seem quite fairly costed to me, and while dev squads aren't so hot there's plenty of other firepower sources in the SM book.

ShumaGorath wrote:Null zone got good because it was the key to beating the other players squad of th/ss terms. As meta shifted away from invuln reliant death stars the utility started to vanish. It's next to useless against palladins (outside of the vulkan/libby/th/ss monobuild), and the entirety of the IG and space wolf armies. It's got utility against DE transports and killing daemons at least.

Sure, a lot of IG builds don't care too much, but the same item isn't good against everything and there are extra powers to use. Meltaguns are next to useless via horde orks, but that doesn't make them bad. As for SW, I find Null Zone highly effective at neutralizing Thunderwolf Cavalry, Lone Wolves, etc. There are a lot of armies against which Null Zone isn't great, but when you need it it's a godsend.

ShumaGorath wrote:The GK librarian is base more expensive because it comes with upgrades included in cost. To equip a codex librarian in the same way is ~20 points more expensive. The codex librarian also doesn't have the aegis or hammerhand.

Why would you want those things, though? Different units, different Codices, different roles-- and having to take upgrades is certainly worse than choosing whether or not to take upgrades. I'm more a fan of the 100 point basic Librarian, with no fancy tricks except his powers. The GK one pays a lot of points for things that are dubiously valuable-- or, in the case of Terminator armor, probably a disadvantage!

ShumaGorath wrote:My friend Erik who is the primary IG competition has a mech list that has made it to the top couple of tables in round 2 of ard boyz the last few years. 2 demolishers, a plastmatank, hydras, stracken, vendettas, and lots of chimera melta vets at 1850. It's not a standard leaf blower, but I don't believe he has lost a single game against codex marines since the debut of the IG codex. He's played quite a few of them.

Personally, I find there are lots of units in C:SM that are good at punishing really shooty armies, especially ones that use vehicle squadrons. Scout Bikers immediately spring to mind.

ShumaGorath wrote:You could well have the counters, though given that it takes ~36 bolter shots to wound one palladin and 3 plasma canon wounds to do the same i'd venture a guess that you might not have fun doing so. It's a very frustrating army to play against. I've managed to beat draigowing before, but it requires that my opponent make mistakes in target priority and deployment. It's too easy for them to simply walk towards me and hold down the trigger. Null zone + th/ss can do a lot of damage to a paladin squad, but it's almost the only cost effective counter in the book (drop podding melta or plasma sterns can do well, but it's risky). Most GK players should recognize that and they can decimate assault terms at range in one round of shooting.

Why would I shoot bolters at Paladins at all, at least prior to 6e hitting? It's all about the instant death there, and that's another case where Null Zone can really shine. I'm also not sure how GK players can "decimate" assault terms at range. If they're in Land Raiders, the GK army will likely have very few solutions to AV14-- if not, you should have enough Termies to weather a volley or two and maintain lethality. That said, Paladins are tough too, so much of your own shooting will have to head their way as well prior to the big fight. Of course, all of this assumes you don't just tank shock them into irrelevance. I don't think Draigowing is a bad army, but I think it's sort of "Nob Bikers 2.0--" an inherently gimmicky army that relies on opponents being unprepared for it.

Anpu-adom wrote: It's almost like GW has decided "we want to focus on models, so we'll produce a ruleset that we don't need to keep tweaking!"

Seems very reasonable that GW simply decided that the time their designers put into new codicies generates more moolah than the time they put into new rulebooks.

Personally I think that 35 points for a lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun on a transport that I want to take anyway is very synergistic and cost-effective.

And it requires that your libby be within range of the target, which is inherently dangerous as that's within the primary threat range of virtually every army. Sticking him in a LR with assault terms is nice, but it's expensive and innefective against armies with the volume to deal with death stars.

That's why I use Combat Squads. With Combat Squads, my half-squad in the back can fire a heavy weapon, while my half-squad in the front can fire a special and combi when necessary.

I tend to lose my troop choices fairly quickly when I split tacs up and try to get aggressive. The tacs have a low volume of damage output for their cost. It's not something that's really debateable if you compared them to virtually any other troop choice out there. They're supposed to be resilient, but when everything is packing power weapons or has cover their save doesn't do a lot by comparison.

Auto/las preds seem quite fairly costed to me, and while dev squads aren't so hot there's plenty of other firepower sources in the SM book.

An autolas pred costs about the same as a vendetta and more then long fangs. It's a bad deal in the current power level of the game.

Sure, a lot of IG builds don't care too much, but the same item isn't good against everything and there are extra powers to use. Meltaguns are next to useless via horde orks, but that doesn't make them bad. As for SW, I find Null Zone highly effective at neutralizing Thunderwolf Cavalry, Lone Wolves, etc. There are a lot of armies against which Null Zone isn't great, but when you need it it's a godsend.

The same could be send for any specialty item. In my experience 4+ cover makes null zone somewhat worthless outside of combat, and if you have him in combat he's with th/ss, if he's with th/ss you're probably running vulkan. It's that one space marine build that's still vaguely viable. I don't play that for the same reason I don't play blood angels. It's not my army. I understand that I'm kind of gimping myself a bit, I've been considering doing counts as BAs since its very close to my current build anyway (space sharks!) but I don't want to be "that guy".

Why would you want those things, though? Different units, different Codices, different roles-- and having to take upgrades is certainly worse than choosing whether or not to take upgrades.

Generally to keep the libby from getting killed by volume fire or by an enemy squad with initiative higher then 1. 2 wound ICs with 3+ are a very inviting target in combat. I understand going barebones though, I've often considered a 150 point hood and nullzone/teleporter.

Personally, I find there are lots of units in C:SM that are good at punishing really shooty armies, especially ones that use vehicle squadrons. Scout Bikers immediately spring to mind.

I've wanted to get a squad of scout bikes together. $150 for a squad hurts though, and I don't see their utility against mech spam. My typical tactic is 10 sterns in a drop pod combat squadding with combi meltas. I can vaporize two squadrons at once, but at this point the trick is old hat and dawn of war/GKs can screw it pretty hard.

Why would I shoot bolters at Paladins at all, at least prior to 6e hitting? It's all about the instant death there, and that's another case where Null Zone can really shine.

They're going to have a 3+ cover save. Null zone doesn't do anything outside of combat and making them reroll 5+ isn't super great in it. Watch out for pshych grenades.

I'm also not sure how GK players can "decimate" assault terms at range. If they're in Land Raiders, the GK army will likely have very few solutions to AV14-- if not, you should have enough Termies to weather a volley or two and maintain lethality.

If you have one LR they can deal with it just fine. Psycanons can put it down with volume rending fire, and unless you're stacking LRs they have clear target priority. It's not impossible to get in there, but it won't be free.

That said, Paladins are tough too, so much of your own shooting will have to head their way as well prior to the big fight. Of course, all of this assumes you don't just tank shock them into irrelevance. I don't think Draigowing is a bad army, but I think it's sort of "Nob Bikers 2.0--" an inherently gimmicky army that relies on opponents being unprepared for it.

Play it before judging. They'll have six KPs at 1850 and good luck taking objectives from them.


Space marines can win, but their basic troops are bad units for cost, and fifth edition requires troops that can take objectives. There are few ways for a marine army to late game contest either, so there are very few alternatives to simply shooting an enemy off of an objective. It's an uphill battle because the codex is (for the most part) overcosted. There is some gold in there, but it's what you and others have mentioned. Vulkan, th/ss, null zone, and sternguard. Thats not a complete army though, and the troops slot is a major inherent weakness that is very hard to overcome when your opponents are skilled or their army is powerful.

I've not bothered reading through all of this thread but I was talking to a disgruntled employee of GW yesterday- they receive their copies of the new rule book in about 2 weeks, which places 6th Ed release about end of July.
All codexes from Blood Angels onwards have been written for 6th Ed.
Most likely first purely 6th Ed codex is Tau.
Most likely to be Dark Eldar and Space Marine starter box.

I did not tell you any of this!

PS. If I can, I'll try and get a copy of the rule book off of him/her.