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For sake of argument the following assumes that we are in the US.

Recasting is against the law. Recasting results in manufacturing counterfeit goods
Buying counterfeit goods is illegal. People that unknowingly buy the items are usually not prosecuted. though any and all buyers stand the chance of being prosecuted.

Selling, trading, or distributing (free) counterfeit goods is illegal.

These laws are on the books because large corporations have spent money buying senators and congressmen to get laws that are in the best interest of their company.

There are other laws on the books that many of us break. assigning your Judeo-Christian ethics to these laws and saying that if you break one makes you a bad person is a very limited view on the world.

Lets say you live in Pennsylvania, like inquisitorlewis profile indicates. The following are against the law

Fireworks stores may not sell fireworks to Pennsylvania residents.

Any motorist driving along a country road at night must stop every mile and send up a rocket signal, wait 10 minutes for the road to be cleared of livestock, and continue.

Motorized vehicles are not to be sold on Sundays.

You may not catch a fish with your hands.

These are laws that I suspect many in PA either totally ignore or hold in utter contempt.

However it is the LAW and using the logic presented earlier in this thread makes a person a total donkey cave for not following them to the letter.

I agree with Dakka about not posting links to sellers that offer recasts.
I am totally onboard with going after folks like Tony Heath, because he is lying and being fraudulent.
I have and would continue to report recasters that are mis-representing what they are selling/trading.
I would report a recaster of say CHS, or Pauson Games, or any of the supporters of this hobby.

I am less inclined to get upset at a quality operation that is openly & honestly selling a knockoff product of a major game company that has a proven track record of treating the hobby and us hobbyists badly


A different question to consider is your standpoint on the reproduction of OOP materials. For sake of argument lets talk about SQUATS. They are no longer sold or supported.so buying a recast does not "steal" from GW b/c they do not & will not offer them again.

Or even a similar yet different scenario, recasting a single weapon or arm to replace a missing piece of a kit. Again assuming that the kit is out of production meaning that a GW origianl is no longer sold or offered by GW?

Korraz wrote:No it doesn't. It means.

a. Robbery committed at sea.
b. A similar act of robbery, as the hijacking of an airplane.
2. The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material: software piracy.

You're aware that "software piracy" is an example given for the definition, yes?

3. The operation of an unlicensed, illegal radio or television station

You could make a point if the recasting and the transaction would be done on a ship.

He's already made a perfectly valid point. You're just attempted to obfuscate the issue by introducing ridiculous examples.

I understand that it's far more fun to make things up to justify your own lack of moral character, but please try to stick to the issue presented.

I guess I do need to jump back in real quick. First off let me state, I have no religion. I will not go further down that road.

Recasting of Squats did a lot of harm to that line. Real collectors who know anything, knows that there was a huge influx of recast squats that actually did hit the market a few years back. That entire line is now in question if you have a real squat or a fake. They still sell for a tidy sum but a lot of collectors either steer clear entirely, or search for trusted sellers.

On occassion I have paid 200 dollars plus for certain unreleased GW items. If there was a ton of recasts I wouldn't want anything to do with that miniature for that price. I am not complaining of the price I paid because I knew it was a genuine product. Maybe at this point none of the guys who buy recasts care, but some day they may become actual collectors and not people who just want to field a ton of miniatures.

Don't forget, there's a ton of people who are in the collecting side of the hobby only. Now recasting is also hurting them. They can't buy with confidence, especially if items have changed hands a few times.
We now have GW limited edition minis that are either finecast (white dwarf sub model) or resin (FW Boarding Marine, Chaos Dwarf Hellsmith). Why spend the high dollars in a few years when the market may be flooded. FW Epic buildings that are oop go for BIG BUCKS, and I am fairly confident that these are now being recast as well. Maybe hunting down LE and OOP minis doesn't appeal to everyone, but it certainly does to some in this hobby. Recasting helps ruin this aspect of the hobby.

Yes its stealing as in stealing Revenue from GW

Inquisitor Lewis, you have been making your point for 2 pages straight now and are repeating yourself. You make some valid points, but calling the thread beyond stupid yet not being able to resist still coming in to post is a good sign that maybe it's time to lay off a bit.

LunaHound wrote:Yes its stealing as in stealing Revenue from GW

By this logic, launching a competing product or making a scratchbuilt titan is stealing and that would be a silly assertion for anyone to make, we can all agree.

Recasting is not stealing, it's counterfeiting or piracy. There's a reason why we have different words for different things. They are different concepts. The loss by the company you are pirating from is not in a 1 to 1 relationship with what you took. It's an elastic loss based on the market and the equilibrium price plus your liklihood to actually buy the real one. For instance, when you buy 3 dollar oakley knockoffs in times square, oakley is not actually losing your 200$ because you never would have bought them at all. The indirect nature of this relationship is why it was necessary to use the word "piracy" instead of "theft" because it's a different distinct action and a different crime. Just like the difference between robbery and burglary, similarity is not enough for them to share a word. There is a reason the english language uses different words for those things. "stealing" means something and it doesn't mean this.

Illegal? Yes. Wrong? Yes. Stealing? no. Calling it stealing is an abuse of the english language.

Let me ask everyone who is dead set on calling it stealing. Why? Why is it so important that we call it stealing and not its proper name? Do you think it becomes less bad if we call it piracy? Piracy is still bad and wrong. There is nothing wrong with calling piracy piracy. It is still bad wrong and illegal.

MajorTom11 wrote:Inquisitor Lewis, you have been making your point for 2 pages straight now and are repeating yourself. You make some valid points, but calling the thread beyond stupid yet not being able to resist still coming in to post is a good sign that maybe it's time to lay off a bit.

I agree. Sorry about y nerd rage yesterday. Apology goes out to everyone taking place in this thread.

Sooo... where would one purchase these 'recasts'?

Only Fleabay?

Million wrote:Sooo... where would one purchase these 'recasts'?

Only Fleabay?

No, there are chinese and russian sites that openly sell them through an online shop. There is one with a fairly generic sounding name that seems to get mentioned here regularly for example, but I've actually forgotten what it's called, not that Dakka allows linking to such sites.

The fact that they are based in China or that GW can't stop them does not mean they are at all legal. Recasting isn't 'legal' in China, they just don't care. There is a difference.

Also people saying that it's legal to import from China because their recasts are legal there are also mistaken on another count... Customs often prevent counterfeit goods entering the country. I think that Customs do not prevent small single orders (worth a few hundred pounds) being delivered as they are primarily after bulk shipments where the buyer is clearly a distributor in the UK. Someone ordering a pair of counterfeit designer shoes for example could have bought them in good faith for their own use so that would be allowed though, as would a small order of recasts. Not that customs may spot them. But if you were to order a heap of them in one go to sell to your mates, then you might just feel a little heat.

Yeah, customs has a lot of trouble detecting fakes when it's just a seemingly used item in a box. They're better at spotting bulk shipments of fakes.

Rented Tritium wrote:Yeah, customs has a lot of trouble detecting fakes when it's just a seemingly used item in a box. They're better at spotting bulk shipments of fakes.

I don't know how it is in the US, but I heard one on the TV saying that is was pretty much policy that if the value was less than £250 they just let it through regardless. They are looking for distributors, not people buying cheap handbags.

Though one odd story about customs. Many years ago one of my dad's friends detected a drugs shipment being smuggled in. Being an SF fan and big reader, he opened a crate and found it full of SF novels. So picked one and and gave it a good sniff for that wonderful book smell. Unfortunately it smelt of something else. It turned out that people sending the crate had stripped the covers off all the books and replaced the glue with a cocaine paste before replacing the covers and shipping. Surely an ingenious and laborious plan, who on earth would think to look there for drugs? Only an SF fan with a need to sniff american books of course...

Hello,
One of the most common recasts that I see (because I look for this model) is the Armorcast titans, they are not produced anymore, yet there is a seller who seems to have one or two up every month, with choice of weapons. Now I would not complain about this as much if he were admiting that is what they are and selling them cheaper, however that is not the case, so he drives up the costs of the originals as well.

Regards,
Carl

All other things aside, he is not driving the cost of originals up. That's not how that works. If anything, it is driving down the cost of originals by artificially satisfying a small portion of the demand.

Cool story Howard.

insaniak wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:While we're on the subject, what do you guys look for when determining if a model is recast? I mean obviously if it's really bad, that's one thing, but when it looks pretty real, is there a warning sign or a givaway term or something?

Double mould lines are a big giveaway that something has been recast.

Again, this is not a dead giveaway either.

I have bought PLENTY of GW product fresh from the retailer in blister that had double or even treble mold lines.

This says more about the quality of the GW casting process than it does a give away for illegal recasting.

I am not saying that this would not be an indicator of illegal recasting as it may be, but GW themselves are guilty of lazy casting process of taking a model off of the production line and just casting another from that instead of using masters or at least taking the time to remove the mold lines before recasting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackmoor wrote:I think the reason why they are becoming so popular is a couple of reasons.
GW prices are so high that there might be a backlash against them. Also GW is not loved and they are horrible at public relations so people do not feel bad taking money out of their pockets.
Also the margins are so huge that for pennies a Chinese person can make a model that is equal to a month’s wage.

This. I know I wouldnt care. There was a time when I did but if they can screw me, then I have no qualms about them being screwed.

It is a crap attitude to have in the long run as GW will simply turn around and say "Well, since everyone is buying recasts of our IP, then we will just have to raise prices again. You, the consumer, don't want us raising prices again. Do you?"

Like they ever needed a reason to raise prices....

theunicorn wrote:A different question to consider is your standpoint on the reproduction of OOP materials. For sake of argument lets talk about SQUATS. They are no longer sold or supported.so buying a recast does not "steal" from GW b/c they do not & will not offer them again.

Or even a similar yet different scenario, recasting a single weapon or arm to replace a missing piece of a kit. Again assuming that the kit is out of production meaning that a GW origianl is no longer sold or offered by GW?

Are you stealing from GW?-No, but what you are doing diminishes the value and market for anyone who has a proper or complete one. Look at ebay and you'll find OOP miniatures like the old Chaos Dwarfs for $50+ for a couple of minis. If someone dumped recast Chaos Dwarfs on the market, the people selling them for $50+ a set... there odds of selling them at that price goes from slim to no chance at all. Effectually the recaster has stolen $50 in sales from them.

When it comes to insubstantial parts I don't think it really applies. A small component doesn't really carry with it the identifiable character of the copywrite work; a hand is a hand and a cape a cape. IP laws tend to protect identifiable aspects and the summation of interpretation apparent in a complete work. You'll never have that with small component parts.

aka_mythos wrote:

theunicorn wrote:
Or even a similar yet different scenario, recasting a single weapon or arm to replace a missing piece of a kit. Again assuming that the kit is out of production meaning that a GW origianl is no longer sold or offered by GW?

When it comes to insubstantial parts I don't think it really applies. A small component doesn't really carry with it the identifiable character of the copywrite work; a hand is a hand and a cape a cape. IP laws tend to protect identifiable aspects and the summation of interpretation apparent in a complete work. You'll never have that with small component parts.

So a follow up would be lets say I have a Necromunda gang I post for sale/trade either here or bartertown or eBay. I being an honest person take great photos and disclose that some of the mulitpart models have had parts lost over time and the weapons have been restored with self made replicas.
Link to a personal example of replacements for lost heavy weapons
http://warfrog.blogspot.com/2011/05/saving-ebay-finds-by-casting-your-own.html
Just to be clear I am neither selling nor am I distributing these to anyone, I also do not keep a mold from which to make additional copies. So this is a case 3 or less copies and then then molds are melted down.
Again I am not at this time selling/trading/or offering for distribution any thing I have made.

PS Mythos when are we going to see that half track in your sig finished?

By definition I am a counterfeiter for having done this.

Who would be interested in purchasing a listing like this and why?
OR conversely who would be so staunchly opposed to the concept that they reported it to mods/etc?

I encountered some of these recasters, expecially from china.

All their products look great so I am thinking of getting a few, that is if i can't get them even cheaper.

I just don't want to pay a fortune just to play with my model men.

I had contact with one of the chinese seller (not on ebay), and they seem to be nice people and their quality are perfect.

aka_mythos wrote:

theunicorn wrote:A different question to consider is your standpoint on the reproduction of OOP materials. For sake of argument lets talk about SQUATS. They are no longer sold or supported.so buying a recast does not "steal" from GW b/c they do not & will not offer them again.

Are you stealing from GW?-No, but what you are doing diminishes the value and market for anyone who has a proper or complete one. Look at ebay and you'll find OOP miniatures like the old Chaos Dwarfs for $50+ for a couple of minis. If someone dumped recast Chaos Dwarfs on the market, the people selling them for $50+ a set... there odds of selling them at that price goes from slim to no chance at all. Effectually the recaster has stolen $50 in sales from them.

I'm not bothered by this particular effect upon the 2nd hand market. A person selling stuff 2nd hand has no right to expect to sell it for a high price. The price is dictated by demand for a rare object rather than a high investment at your end, it's nice to have a windfall on some old stuff but you don't have a right to an inflated collectors value on old figures. You didn't create or make the stuff, you are merely selling you old stuff that happens to be in short supply. Your collection may be devalued by recasters, but you aren't being stolen from in any real way, IMO.

I *am* bothered by the way that some recasters pass off OOP recasts as the genuine thing rather than being bothered by recasting per se. When you have figures like sergeant centurius which are in ridiculously short supply, as long as there's an understanding there that the customer knows what they are getting for their money that's okay. I do not like those people recasting and then charging £50-100 for it as though it were the genuine article. That to me is a different level of dishonesty, because you are cheating people directly out of their money, rather than devaluing some nebulous amount a person's collection may or may not be worth.

I say all this as someone who has sold substantial numbers of older collectable figures ranging from 10-30 years old. If people can get hold of an OOP figure they really want for a modest amount and they know they are paying for a recast, it doesn't bother me. I would genuinely rather more people have access to rare and unusual figures not less, just so that a handful of models can pass around a small number of rich collectors and maintain a high value. I believe that true collectors can spot the real thing and are only interested in the real thing which is why they are rigorous about checking photos and who they buy from, and often buy things still packaged. Older, rarer figures often they pass around between people that know each other. I know for a fact that when I've sold stuff on eBay, I see the same names and addresses time and again. It's a small world.

I just wanted to chime in and say that this has been a great thread to read and follow as it has developed. I have seen several examples of the recasters on Ebay. I really don't think that they try too hard to hide themselves. For the most part they seem to sell Forgeworld models at around 80% for buy it nows. I really don't understand how Forgeworld has not stepped in to stop these sellers. As far as independent sites I have only found one and the prices make it very clear that they are recasters based on below wholesale prices. I do have to say though that finding these sites are no easy thing. As a matter of fact the only one I found after a large amount of research, I found due to discussions on a different forum. I see it as a clear cut answer. If you do not wish to support recasters, then do not take advantage of deals too good to be true. If the moral/ethical side does not bother you then proceed at your own risk, don't be surprised about questionable quality, and don't try to overjustify the minitures equivalent to downloading music or movies without paying for them.

giothulu wrote:I just wanted to chime in and say that this has been a great thread to read and follow as it has developed. I have seen several examples of the recasters on Ebay. I really don't think that they try too hard to hide themselves. For the most part they seem to sell Forgeworld models at around 80% for buy it nows. I really don't understand how Forgeworld has not stepped in to stop these sellers. As far as independent sites I have only found one and the prices make it very clear that they are recasters based on below wholesale prices. I do have to say though that finding these sites are no easy thing. As a matter of fact the only one I found after a large amount of research, I found due to discussions on a different forum. I see it as a clear cut answer. If you do not wish to support recasters, then do not take advantage of deals too good to be true. If the moral/ethical side does not bother you then proceed at your own risk, don't be surprised about questionable quality, and don't try to overjustify the minitures equivalent to downloading music or movies without paying for them.

I wish I would have come to this conclusion yesterday. Well said.

There's a huge amount of recast models floatinga round for battletech, particuarly for the discontinued "unseen" models that are in high demand. It's so bad that the only way to make sure you have a legit model is to buy it still sealed in the blister pack which is very hard to come by as most of them are 15-20 years old. The sealed packs can go for as much as a$100 for certain figures where unsealed versions might get $10. The battledriod versions are the most faked and even known fakes can go for $100+ depending on the model and the quality.

Even when you know what to look for it's very easy to get duped by a knock off product. There's regular stretches of time where 50%+ of the battletech auctions on ebay are for counterfiet items. If you buy a second hand collection there's almost 100% chance you'll get several knock off minis in there.

GW product seems to be heading that route now as well, their move to finecast has made the job even easier for pirating miniatures. To do metal minis right you need a spincaster which even in used condition will set the counterfeiter back 5,000-6,000 and new machines are 10-15k+, meanwhile you can get set up for casting resin for around $300 and if you are good be able to make product that is easily comperable to finecast. In some cases the pirates are out producing GW on the quality of their casts. A lot of the chinese casters do an amazingly good job and it's sad that they have better quality control than GW.

Combine increased quality with lower cost and you have a huge firestorm ready to explode.

Not to be a jerk, but the "chinese casters doing an amazingly good job" are generally ones working out of factories with numbers of employees which make GW's operations look like a kid's lemonade stand.

Kanluwen wrote:Not to be a jerk, but the "chinese casters doing an amazingly good job" are generally ones working out of factories with numbers of employees which make GW's operations look like a kid's lemonade stand.

I suspect at least one group of them are/were the factory(sweatshop) that FW used for cheap labor for a while. I think a good example of irony is send master copies of expensive to the folks that end up ripping you off, plus they quite probably trained them on how to make the molds as well.

I think a lot of the product is coming from the plants GW opened up themselves. It may well be GW product falling off the truck and going home with employees who are selling it on their own.

There's not enough volume of these products coming from China to be giant smoke belching factories filled with cheap yellow labor. I run a casting company and you'd be shocked at how much product just two people can crank out in a day. Most of the sites I've seen selling these products are likely solo opperations a few of the larger ones might be 3-4 workers.

A single person witha spincaster can turn out hundreds of figures in an hour, most of these sites don't have more than a few dozen copies in stock at a given time, which to me indicates solo casting and not sweat shop factories.

It's very common in counterfeiting that a group will come into the factory that actually makes the product and overnight they produce their own with cheap or questionably sourced materials using the same machines. If there are any Chinese factories that currently do or have in the past made GW figures, I would not be very surprised if this was the case.

Suprisingly, I see few Chinese recasts popping up on eBay. There is the common Chaos Warhound from the same guy but that's about it. Given that FW supposedly sent their stuff to China for a bit, you'd think that there'd be more recasts coming out of there.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I'm not bothered by this particular effect upon the 2nd hand market. A person selling stuff 2nd hand has no right to expect to sell it for a high price. The price is dictated by demand for a rare object rather than a high investment at your end, it's nice to have a windfall on some old stuff but you don't have a right to an inflated collectors value on old figures. You didn't create or make the stuff, you are merely selling you old stuff that happens to be in short supply. Your collection may be devalued by recasters, but you aren't being stolen from in any real way, IMO.

The natural state of property is one where its value is what was paid for it, diminsihed only through consumption of utility or market availability. These older miniatures are collectables who's intrinsic value will only climb over time. This is a capitalistic society, where any purchase of any good is regarded an investment in growth or utility. There are people who "invest" in miniatures with the express intent of selling them at a later date. These people are damaged financially by recasting. While its easy for you to not value these types of investments, it isn't your livelyhood thats dependent upon them. They are committed to legal enterprise and we shouldn't allow their pursuit to be hampered by those committed to criminal ones.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I say all this as someone who has sold substantial numbers of older collectable figures ranging from 10-30 years old. If people can get hold of an OOP figure they really want for a modest amount and they know they are paying for a recast, it doesn't bother me. I would genuinely rather more people have access to rare and unusual figures not less, just so that a handful of models can pass around a small number of rich collectors and maintain a high value. I believe that true collectors can spot the real thing and are only interested in the real thing which is why they are rigorous about checking photos and who they buy from, and often buy things still packaged. Older, rarer figures often they pass around between people that know each other. I know for a fact that when I've sold stuff on eBay, I see the same names and addresses time and again. It's a small world.

I'd love it if alot of the oldies were still in production but if someone knows they're buying a recast than its effectually a replica or reproduction... which IF licensed would be perfectly fine. The problem is you shouldn't have to be a "true collector" to be able to trust a market place.

Breotan wrote:Suprisingly, I see few Chinese recasts popping up on eBay. There is the common Chaos Warhound from the same guy but that's about it. Given that FW supposedly sent their stuff to China for a bit, you'd think that there'd be more recasts coming out of there.

There have been, I know for a fact. This one seller has his own site and had been selling resin casts of plastic kits in addition to FW recasts.

The recasting of plastics suprises me. I wouldn't think there'd be much of a market for such obvious knockoffs.

Breotan wrote:The recasting of plastics suprises me. I wouldn't think there'd be much of a market for such obvious knockoffs.

some people either won't pay attention to the casting medium, won't know what the original medium was or prefer to work in another medium.

hell, if I could find good-quality metal casts of some of the finecast-only models I'd be sorely tempted to go for it, because I prefer working in metal.

Incidentally, one of the prominent chinese recasters (starts with M) has removed their whole Forgeworld section, maybe under pressure, maybe because it was drawing too much attention, or maybe because Chinese New Year is coming up and they don't want to be swamped with orders.