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It seems like there's been a steady influx of recasters on eBay over the past year or so. Some are in Russia, others Hong Kong, and still more are in the USA. Anyone know why this has only recently started up like this? Or has it always been this bad and I just never noticed before?

Dunno why the influx, but they seem to be getting better. I picked up some from Russia (with love), knowing what they were, and they stack up pretty well with the legit versions.

It comes and goes.

I would suspect that if there is a surge right now, it would be prompted by people trying to cash in on peoples' reluctance to buy 'Fine'cast.

While we're on the subject, what do you guys look for when determining if a model is recast? I mean obviously if it's really bad, that's one thing, but when it looks pretty real, is there a warning sign or a givaway term or something?


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insaniak wrote:It comes and goes.

I would suspect that if there is a surge right now, it would be prompted by people trying to cash in on peoples' reluctance to buy 'Fine'cast.

Casting has also gotten much easier in just the last few years. The supplies required have dropped in price and started showing up in regular stores.

Usually the resin is the wrong color, or its just not quite as good as the real thing. Also a dead give away if they don't come with bases (real FW does, where applicable).

Rented Tritium wrote:While we're on the subject, what do you guys look for when determining if a model is recast? I mean obviously if it's really bad, that's one thing, but when it looks pretty real, is there a warning sign or a givaway term or something?

Excessive pitting or discolouration of the metal (caused by the metal being too hot when cast) is the most common giveaway, although it's not 100%. GW's own minis have from time to time suffered from minor pitting and occasional discolouration, so it's largely a case of learning what looks 'right'...

Double mould lines are a big giveaway that something has been recast. Better casters will obviously do a better job of either matching or removing the original mould lines before making their mould...

Missing plastic components can also be a clue, particularly where someone is selling large numbers of old minis without them... but this can also just be someone clearing out their old minis box, of course.

Sellers offering large numbers of identical primed minis should also be considered with care... The priming is used to conceal differences in moulding or material that might be more obvious if the model were sold bare.

Right now I'm big into 54mm+ modelling and painting. I don't know if you guys are aware of the prices of this stuff? but the miniatures that are being produced right now, from companys like Scale75, Pegaso, Andrea etc are so stunning....anyway.

Like I said the prices are pretty steep when compared to 28mm for obvious reasons I guess. Where I'm at right now, let's just say my painting skills are in the "development" stage! So when spending £50+ on a single figure, getting the final paint scheme "wrong" really leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

In comes ebay, and the mighty recaster!! I can get the same miniature that would cost me around £120 (Mounted knight type fella on a horse!) for £30!!!!

So I've taken the plunge and bought the recast, knowing full well what it was (at that price, it really couldn't be anything else).....but my aim is to use it as a paint slave, a medium to build my skills on. I fully intend to purchase the "original" from the company that produces it.....why? Because, as much as the recast will save me money while developing my skills, I will always know the miniature is a "cheap" copy, no matter how well it is made.

I know this is probably irrational, especially if the recaster uses industry standard materials and processes, but theres just something "special" about purchasing from the "right" sources, not to mention, I want the original product company to continue to produce more and more beautiful miniatures. I know that if people turn solely to recasters eventually, the well spring of creativity that enabled the recasters to ply their trade will dry up, and what then?

I think for any serious modeller or painter, you'd probably feel the same way I do, and despite the prices, will want to preserve their hobby by supporting the companys who produce original products, whether it be miniatures, statues, action figures.....what ever.

I guess in the end what I'm saying, is that recasters do have a place in our hobbies, but we have to use them WISELY, and pay our dues to the original product manufacturers in equal measure!!....we mustn't bite the hand that feeds us.

Isnt recasting illegal? Am i missing something? :s

I believe recasting is MASSIVELY illegal, although, the ones I bought are coming in from China! where recasting is probably not illegal.

How this sits with trading across boundaries I'm not entirely sure, to buy the goods in the UK from China is not technically like recieveing stolen goods per se, as the item itself has been legally sold by its owner, I would imagine it would only be a case of "illegal selling" if the I.P. rights to the item were contested and found in a court of law to be in infringement....until that happens, I believe the item can be traded across boundaries....

One problem with this is a sculpter in Russia, Zonk made a brilliant home made Chaos Dwarf Ass-Cannon inspired sculpt and then had to deal with people thinking it was a recast which it wasn't

I recently acquired some old Rackham models and a Gamesday model from a Chinese seller on Ebay. Although it's likely, being from China and all, that they're recasts, I honestly am not disappointed with my purchase at all. Almost no flash or mold lines (no double mold lines), all the details beautifully in tact. You wouldn't get higher quality by buying them off the shelf.

Delephont wrote:So I've taken the plunge and bought the recast, knowing full well what it was (at that price, it really couldn't be anything else).....but my aim is to use it as a paint slave, a medium to build my skills on. I fully intend to purchase the "original" from the company that produces it.....why? Because, as much as the recast will save me money while developing my skills, I will always know the miniature is a "cheap" copy, no matter how well it is made.

Seems like an awfully expensive way of doing a practice paint. A bottle of Simple Green or Super Clean is going to cost you substantially less than £30.

There are several ways to tell if they are re-casts.
If the models are being sold in Russia and especially China that is a clue.
As stated, no bases.
Selling a lot of rare and limited edition models.

I think the reason why they are becoming so popular is a couple of reasons.
GW prices are so high that there might be a backlash against them. Also GW is not loved and they are horrible at public relations so people do not feel bad taking money out of their pockets.
Also the margins are so huge that for pennies a Chinese person can make a model that is equal to a month’s wage.

insaniak wrote:

Delephont wrote:So I've taken the plunge and bought the recast, knowing full well what it was (at that price, it really couldn't be anything else).....but my aim is to use it as a paint slave, a medium to build my skills on. I fully intend to purchase the "original" from the company that produces it.....why? Because, as much as the recast will save me money while developing my skills, I will always know the miniature is a "cheap" copy, no matter how well it is made.

Seems like an awfully expensive way of doing a practice paint. A bottle of Simple Green or Super Clean is going to cost you substantially less than £30.

Oh totally.

When I say the paintjob is a "write off", I'm actually exaggerating what I should have said to make things clearer, is the paintjob isn't at the level where you're 100% happy with it, by this I mean you've pumped a lot of time and effort into the miniature and you've basically got some way to go before you're "one of the masters". This is certainly no reason to strip the model down and start again....I see painting as a skill that developes over time, my guess is most painters can look back over their last "few" miniatures and actually see how they've improved with each paintjob.

Having said all of that, can you imagine the cost of the process if you were to buy the same model again and again from the original product maker until you got the figure as close to 100% as you could

And that's where I think recasts can be useful. Once you're confident though, and can approach eat job knowing you'll do the figure justice, I see no further need to rely on recasters...from that point you'd go straight to the originals.

I could use some recast OOP stuff, namely the old raptors.

I like the idea, really. Too lazy to buy warhams on ebay though.

Delephont wrote:Having said all of that, can you imagine the cost of the process if you were to buy the same model again and again from the original product maker until you got the figure as close to 100% as you could

I would have gone insane long before that happened.

By the time I've finished the first copy of that model, there are half a dozen new models out there that I can practice on next. I'm not going to keep repainting the same thing until it's perfect... that will never happen. I just paint each mini to a standard I'm happy with, and move on.

By implementing FineCast, GW has opened the door wide for recasters. Now that character and other larger models will mostly be resin, recasters will have a field day recasting stuff in resin that used to be metal. The quality of a recast resin item will no longer matter because the quality of the FineCast stuff is so variable. It will be very hard to tell if a resin item is FineCast or a recast if the recaster colors his resin a light gray.

The thing is I think it's very difficult for Western companies to apply any kind of copyright or image rights over anything that is produced in China, or for most of Asia for that matter.

I think the record I have seen for most copyright infringements on a single item was 3 on a t-shirt in South Korea - A Lego Super Mario jumping out of a transforming Optimus Prime. I doubt very much that the 50 year old lady selling it had requested licensing from all 3 companies.

It's a sign of the times; Prices have never been higher, people have never had less money to spend, the miscast rate of 'official' products has never been so high. Even though I don't support it, I'm not surprised they are thriving.

Does GW switching from metal to resin really make it easier for recasters?

I'm not arguing against that idea, I'm actually interested in knowing.

TBH, Recasting should be wrong, but GW's public relations and quality has got me to the point where I don't care, I'm getting cheaper better quality models from better people who aren't trying to **** my wallet

Blackmoor wrote:There are several ways to tell if they are re-casts.
If the models are being sold in Russia and especially China that is a clue.
As stated, no bases.
Selling a lot of rare and limited edition models.

I think the reason why they are becoming so popular is a couple of reasons.
GW prices are so high that there might be a backlash against them. Also GW is not loved and they are horrible at public relations so people do not feel bad taking money out of their pockets.
Also the margins are so huge that for pennies a Chinese person can make a model that is equal to a month’s wage.

As for Games Workshop.

You Reap What You Sow.

I've got a genius idea. Recast finecast models in METAL

You'd make tons, because everyone would think they were the old models. Even if I knew they were metal recasts, I doubt I'd care.

I wouldn't, I'd love a metal version of the new Krell or a Firebelly, or Golgfag

H.B.M.C. wrote:Does GW switching from metal to resin really make it easier for recasters?

I'm not arguing against that idea, I'm actually interested in knowing.

Nah, it makes it easier for sales yeah, but for personal use the old metal minis are a lot easier to recast than the new finecast ones which tend to be weedier minis with more details/more room for error, etc. I can do older metal based sculpts myself without the use of a pressure pot or anything, if I wanted to try to simulate finecast quality (ideal quality and not what we actually get) I would need to invest in hundreds of dollars of extra gear.

insaniak wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:While we're on the subject, what do you guys look for when determining if a model is recast? I mean obviously if it's really bad, that's one thing, but when it looks pretty real, is there a warning sign or a givaway term or something?

Excessive pitting or discolouration of the metal (caused by the metal being too hot when cast) is the most common giveaway, although it's not 100%. GW's own minis have from time to time suffered from minor pitting and occasional discolouration, so it's largely a case of learning what looks 'right'...

Double mould lines are a big giveaway that something has been recast. Better casters will obviously do a better job of either matching or removing the original mould lines before making their mould...

Missing plastic components can also be a clue, particularly where someone is selling large numbers of old minis without them... but this can also just be someone clearing out their old minis box, of course.

Sellers offering large numbers of identical primed minis should also be considered with care... The priming is used to conceal differences in moulding or material that might be more obvious if the model were sold bare.

Yes, recasts can show these things, but all occur in the genuine article - even the double mould lines are, on rare occasion, seen in genuine figures. If all these issues are present though that is a strong sign of recasting.

I wouldn't place much on the fact that plastic parts, especially bases, being missing. Bases are often separated from a figure or broken if the model has been disassembled, very common at wargames shows in my experience.

The biggest give aways are people producing a lot of Limited Edition stuff, and people casting things in materials they were never cast in. Though a warning on this, a lot of models produced in lead were still available lead-free through their bitz service for many years, so even some very old figures are available in white metal. But the oppostie is not true, you won't get figures produced after the switch over being made in lead. The switch to Finecast will also cause confusion for some years I imagine, as there are not a lot of figures being produced in both materials.

I've no issue with buying recasts of OOP, my feeling is that GW refuse to make them available, and in some cases never gave people a reasonable opportunity to buy them in the first place rendering games difficult to play. Some 54mm Inquisitor figures were available for mere weeks or months before being deleted, it makes you wonder why they even bothered producing some of them. Some items are so obscure, that even dedicated groups like the Citadel Collectors Wiki appear to be unsure of detailing a full collection of stuff actually produced. These figures might only be 10 years old, but it seems very odd to reconcile this disorganised approach with the sort of company GW are today, but their approach to some things, especially the specialist games, has always been haphazard.

As for modern figures being recast, well I believe there are a few reasons people buy these. I'm not keen on buying recasted stuff that you can get in the shops just because I'm cheap. BUT - Firstly the obvious, people buy them because they are cheaper than the genuine article, often significantly cheaper because GW prices are so high. But this also happens because GW do not appear to engender much loyalty in customers, if you look at some manufacturers their customers will react badly to finding recasts. Partly because smaller businesses feel the losses more seriously and recasting could seriously damage them. But for example, even Hasslefree have had their stuff recast on eBay and that really takes away from every sale that they need, their customers were very supportive of them. GW's customers tend to be a bit more 'meh' about the issue of recasting. Lastly, it is possible that recasters offer better quality than GW. There are a lot of people who prefer metal, and it could be the case that regardless of casting material the recasters are supplying stuff more reliably than GW themselves, if true that IS embarrassing.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Does GW switching from metal to resin really make it easier for recasters?

I'm not arguing against that idea, I'm actually interested in knowing.

Easier :3

Cheaper
Faster

Weight is a huge issue @_@

Howard A Treesong wrote:I wouldn't place much on the fact that plastic parts, especially bases, being missing. Bases are often separated from a figure or broken if the model has been disassembled, very common at wargames shows in my experience.

It's not a sign when it's a single figure... But as an example, a while back on eBay there was a seller offering huge numbers of 2nd edition and RT-era miniatures minus the plastic arms, backpacks and bases. Identical bundles of the same miniatures, over and over.

It's not a giveaway on it's own, but it's a very strong indication in cases like that.

If I was a model-making company, and I produced some really great models twenty years ago that are still getting acclaim after all those years, I would make it a point to sell those models for as long as people want them, even if that may be in an incredibly limited run. I think OOP models make armies unique, and I don't think that they should be limited to only die hard collectors...

GW doesn't seem to care about this much, although they have released certain OOP models lately (SW dread guy and legionaires of chaos, to name a couple) that make a lot of fans happy.

Although, I can see the collector's point of view. For example, I've collected YuGiOh cards since the first packs were released. I have hundreds of cards that are vintage and original, and it's a real slap in the face when they release clones of the cards that I worked so hard to get. Best example would be the god cards. I put together my set by putting myself through enormous bargaining efforts and bartering. I still have my original set, as well as the new ones, but I'm not crazy about the new ones because the old ones were such a hassle to get.

So, on the other hand, I could see that GW doesn't want to piss off their older fanbase who have been collecting for their entire lives.

This has nothing to do with the thread, but I wanted to post it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Does GW switching from metal to resin really make it easier for recasters?

I'm not arguing against that idea, I'm actually interested in knowing.

%100 absolutely yes.

I got a bonesinger from italy and it had a little bit of pitting, but it was about the same amount as the dark reapers from the same era, so grain of salt.

But idk, it still seemed a little off somehow and I was wondering if there were any other things I could look at. Thanks for the info, guys.