Your paint might be ALIVE

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**Skippy**

n00ber wrote: Isn't shigella sonnei transmitted via a fecal-oral route? I'm not worried about germs in my paint but I'm actually a bit bothered by the idea of poop in it. Call me old-fashioned.

Anyway, worse things in your kitchen, yadda yadda yadda. No need to repeat all that. But I'm quite surprised by poop germs in paint. I wasn't expecting that at all. How long do they remain alive in it?

Poop germs are everywhere I'm afraid.

**Cerebrium**

n0t_u wrote:Pigment squigs, they have a whole farm of them at HQ.

...Squigments?

**Snarky**

Skippy wrote:
n00ber wrote: Isn't shigella sonnei transmitted via a fecal-oral route? I'm not worried about germs in my paint but I'm actually a bit bothered by the idea of poop in it. Call me old-fashioned.

Anyway, worse things in your kitchen, yadda yadda yadda. No need to repeat all that. But I'm quite surprised by poop germs in paint. I wasn't expecting that at all. How long do they remain alive in it?

Poop germs are everywhere I'm afraid.

Shigella does exist in your poo, and can get all over places surprisingly. I did a study on common surfaces such as keyboards, door handles etc. and you'd be surprised at the amount of fecal bacteria that are on common contact surfaces.

Long story short, people don't wash their hands thoroughly enough after using the bathroom, and this spreads germs everywhere. *hint hint Archim3des, you may want to wash your hands before touching your paints!*

**Myrthe**

So ... Devlan Mud is crap ?!? Or is it the crap that makes the Devlan Mud so good?

Gross but interesting. Thanks for the efforts !!

**Skippy**

Myrthe wrote:So ... Devlan Mud is crap ?!? Or is it the crap that makes the Devlan Mud so good?

Gross but interesting. Thanks for the efforts !!

Shh! Your giving away GWs trade secrets!

**mwnciboo**

Oh now it all makes sense, GW used their magic ingredient in their new wunder-Product, Fine Cast.

**Scipio Africanus**

Archim3des wrote:So I recently bought a pot of Devlan Mud wash in addition to some models.
Well, actually a tyranid army's worth of models, but that's not the point.

Anyway, I'd smelled a communal pot of the mud at the local GW, and it was bad.
This stuff was... Very potent.
I do material analysis for a job, so naturally I've got microscope. No need to tint the sample, as it is already tinted.

Oh holy hell the stuff is crawling with bacteria. I'm not sure what kind, that's for the lab I sent slides off to to determine.
What I AM sure of is that if I drop a few hundred dollars on models, I'd really like to get just pigment in my washes.
Maybe I'm overreacting, but if the labwork comes back as being anything but benign, I'm going to cause a huge stink.
A bigger stink than the wash, if possible.

Redacted for rudeness. Remember Rule #1. -Mannahnin

Why for the good lords name does it matter if the paint has organic matter in it? It's a paint. you're not going to be drinking it and it's a damn sight unlikely that it's anything malignant.

The paints are marketed to children for gods sake. Why would they even go near anything even remotely toxic (consumption aside, of course.)

If you're not drinking it and it's not harmful to skin, what's the problem?

You do realise that paints were made from insects not too long ago? That many paints have are bought specifically because they have cadmium in them?

Wanna go and figure out how dangerous Cadmium poisoning can be?

Next thing I know, you'll be telling me that my Oil paints are dangerous because they are flammable.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Snarky wrote:As an actual Biologist, I can tell you that everything is likely to have bacteria on it unless if you have sterilized it properly. As soon as you open a sterilized paint bottle, airborne bacteria will immediately colonize it resulting in bacteria in your paint.

Anyway, GW washes are acrylic washes so the pigment is probably what smells, so to test it out, I put a sample of Devlan Mud (the primary "smelly" paint) into a spectrophotometer to see whether bacteria really were growing over a period of 8 hours. The readings were stable at 510nm - 535nm showing there was minimal bacterial activity actually happening, if bacteria really was growing and metabolising the paint then the absorbance would have shifted quite a bit.

So later, I went to the physical scientists to ask about acrylics and the bad smell, and I managed to find someone who knew a little about paints. It turns out that acrylic pigments that are brown (umber) are metallic in nature and are bound by either a organic porphyrin ring or in acrylics the pigment is bound after a polymerisation reaction between Acrylamide (a neurotoxin yikes!) and Acrylonitrile after heating between a solution of Sulphuric acid and Sodium Hydroxide (50/50%) with the pigment itself being an iron/manganate mix. So the answer was, the actual paint itself should smell as a mix of metal and sulphur which is a plausible cause of why Devlan mud smells as it is.

Of course, it might not be right, but I don't have the resources to perform a chemical analysis of the paint (I'm in the wrong department!) but if I manage to convince someone to let me use the physical science labs, then I'll try and find out.

This, but uh, a quick google search would show us that Acrylamide is found in a lot of foods - more than you'd ever get in 12 mls of Acrylic wash paint. [yes, 12 mls.]

**Skippy**

Quite amazing how angry some people get when someone is curious about the world around them.

**Snarky**

Acrylamide is a neurotoxin. I use it nearly every day for use in PCR and it has a massive skull and crossbones warning with "Danger! Neurotoxin!".

Acrylamide is great for amplifying DNA, but in it's unprocessed liquid form, it causes neurosis. In it's solid form, Acrylamide is stable and is no longer dangerous.

Just a hint, don't trust google/wikipedia all the time, half the time people don't know what they're talking about and the other half they don't give all the facts.

**Joe Mama**

darefsky wrote:Think about it, how many people put the brush in there mouth to form the tip?

Oh man oh man. It is bad enough the stereotype is smelly fat guy who lives in a basement, now I have to deal with people licking their own brushes like some kinda weirdo?

**Lord Scythican**

Well I didn't die folks, but I sure did crap my pants. Don't drink the stuff guys, unless you want mud butt like I had all last night.

**Ratius**

LOL you didnt actually drink it LS did you?

**Skippy**

Lord Scythican wrote:Well I didn't die folks, but I sure did crap my pants. Don't drink the stuff guys, unless you want mud butt like I had all last night.

I feel like I should give you some kind of small trophy, for not dying.

**Joe Mama**

FifteenHours wrote:Wow, i'm not going to hold back, because you really are a massive fething gakker for posting that.
...you got THAT worked up about someone being curious

To do a bit of internet psychoanalysis, I think the dude was objecting to this part:

but if the labwork comes back as being anything but benign, I'm going to cause a huge stink. A bigger stink than the wash, if possible.

That's not curiousity, that's a threat. This all depends on what "benign" means. If any baceria found at all counts as non-benign, than his outrage over the threat is warranted, because it would be lunacy to cause a ruckus just because bacteria is present in paint. If the EBOLA virus and a strain of flesh eating bacteria was in there, than creating a "huge stink" over the findings would definitely be needed.

The dude overreacted, but you need to not overreact and reply with an even greater epic fail where you think the issue was curiousity.

**The_Happy_Pig**

Scipio Africanus wrote:
Archim3des wrote:So I recently bought a pot of Devlan Mud wash in addition to some models.
Well, actually a tyranid army's worth of models, but that's not the point.

Anyway, I'd smelled a communal pot of the mud at the local GW, and it was bad.
This stuff was... Very potent.
I do material analysis for a job, so naturally I've got microscope. No need to tint the sample, as it is already tinted.

Oh holy hell the stuff is crawling with bacteria. I'm not sure what kind, that's for the lab I sent slides off to to determine.
What I AM sure of is that if I drop a few hundred dollars on models, I'd really like to get just pigment in my washes.
Maybe I'm overreacting, but if the labwork comes back as being anything but benign, I'm going to cause a huge stink.
A bigger stink than the wash, if possible.

I'm sorry, are you an idiot or simply a lawsuit monger?

And so on and so forth...

Did you even bother reading the rest of the thread?

I only say because all your points were raised by other people, but delivered in a well worded, thoughtful way.

I think you need to step away from the keyboard and relax there.

**Archim3des**

Scipio Africanus wrote:
I'm sorry, are you an idiot or simply a lawsuit monger?

Why for the good lords name does it matter if the paint has organic matter in it? It's a paint.

Momma said that only name callers are stupids.
I think my problem has a lot to do with the following statement:
Dude, the "organic matter" is poop. Its poop. Poop is in my wash. I did not poop in my wash. Why is there poop in my wash?
Edit: Joe Mama, this is the full extent of my "making a stink". Regrettably, since what I found was poop, I cant "make a bigger stink".

Lawsuit monger? Please quote where I encouraged anyone to file suit, or even said that its in your wash, for sure, so you should freak out?
I've got poop in my wash, and I'm less incensed on this issue than you seem to be. Sit down, please shut up... extra words so I don't end a sentence with a preposition.

I'm not a whiner because I found bacteria in something. I fully realize that bacteria is everywhere. I saw that episode of Invader Zim. But poop?
I'm merely offering a suggestion as to why the wash may stink. At least my wash. Notice how I always clarify that? Its because I've only had MY wash tested.

I live in a developed country. I'm fairly well off, and am pretty hygiene conscious. I should not have to worry about poop. Most poop based afflictions are thankfully behind me, no pun intended.

Snarky wrote: A series of awesome things that make me feel funny in my downstairs.

I think I love you, but there is no set of tests that I can run to prove it. Thanks for your insight and objectivity, though your name made me wonder if at times you were being slightly... well... Snarky

**Skippy**

Archim3des wrote:

I live in a developed country. I'm fairly well off, and am pretty hygiene conscious. I should not have to worry about poop. Most poop based afflictions are thankfully behind me, no pun intended.

You don't have to worry about it. You do however come into contact with Fecal bacteria multiple times every day.

**Joe Mama**

Don't worry about, because there is nothing to worry about. Also, don't be THAT GUY. The one who takes the reality, and then uses the wrong words to make it sound like something else entirely. Some super tiny quantity of fecal bacteria in a liquid does not count as "poop." If that is your definition of poop, there is probably more "poop" on 57 different surfaces in your house and more "poop" on your own nose.

Calling it poop is as silly as claiming you'll get a contact high from all the concaine on money (look it up, traces of cocaine are on almost every bill, not enough to do anything, but it's there).

**Archim3des**

Skippy, I think I might have some in me right now. Terrifying it is not, because I don't intend to eat it or smear it on my models.

Joe, again, I'm not worried about it. More of quizzical as to why there is poop in this specific product. Enough that a lab was able to isolate it as being present in a higher concentration than would be considered normal for a pot of paint. Sure, there is bacteria on everything, but not this specific type. Sure, there are coliform bacteria on every surface of everything everywhere
But NOT the specific type of bacteria that is accountable for 77% of the cases of dysentery in developed nations. There is bacteria crawling over the fast food meal that I am ingesting right now. I do not think anything of it, nor should you. If it was, say, S Sonnei, which almost exclusively comes from human poop (or monkey poop), I would have my awareness of it raised a little , sure. I'd at least like to know.
Maybe you're of the persuasion that will freely eat poop all day every day and thing nothing of it. I, and maybe others, would strongly disagree that that is totally fine. I wash my hands, and most surfaces in areas where I can smell poop (Smelling something is possible because of atomized particles of that something in the air), such as the bathroom. Past that I don't worry about it too much, because the fecal bacteria that can even potentially cause me harm are not airborne, but I don't really jive with poo dust being in my house, at least to the extent that I can control that.

**MightyGodzilla**

<---Lix hiz brush. Wonders if maladies will befall him.

**Joe Mama**

Archim3des wrote:Skippy, I think I might have some in me right now. Terrifying it is not, because I don't intend to eat it or smear it on my models.

Joe, again, I'm not worried about it. More of quizzical as to why there is poop in this specific product. Enough that a lab was able to isolate it as being present in a higher concentration than would be considered normal for a pot of paint. Sure, there is bacteria on everything, but not this specific type. Sure, there are coliform bacteria on every surface of everything everywhere
But NOT the specific type of bacteria that is accountable for 77% of the cases of dysentery in developed nations. There is bacteria crawling over the fast food meal that I am ingesting right now. I do not think anything of it, nor should you. If it was, say, S Sonnei, which almost exclusively comes from human poop (or monkey poop), I would have my awareness of it raised a little , sure. I'd at least like to know.
Maybe you're of the persuasion that will freely eat poop all day every day and thing nothing of it. I, and maybe others, would strongly disagree that that is totally fine. I wash my hands, and most surfaces in areas where I can smell poop (Smelling something is possible because of atomized particles of that something in the air), such as the bathroom. Past that I don't worry about it too much, because the fecal bacteria that can even potentially cause me harm are not airborne, but I don't really jive with poo dust being in my house, at least to the extent that I can control that.

This wall of text, this verbal diarrhea from you, and you still missed my point. There are bacteria associated with poop in many, many, many places. It is disingenuous to keep saying there is poop itself in the paint, because that isn't true. Did you find animal waste in the paint? I must admit, most of your words bore me so I skim your posts. Maybe when you reported on the lab results, you mentioned animal waste in the paint. If so I apoligize. However, if all you found was this bacteria, then for the love of Pete and all things Petey, please stop saying there is poop in the paint. Because it makes everyone think there is poop where your brain should be.

**balsak_da_mighty**

^LOL

I am still trying to figure out why this is an issue. Ok so there is a bacteria that comes from poop. Or poop like substance. I don't know about you but i don't drink my paints or washes. They go from the pot to the brush to the models. Then I wash them out in water. I don't plan on drinking said water either. You say its not an airborn bacteria, well thats even better. If it were then I might have something to worry about.

**Archim3des**

Joe Mama wrote:There are bacteria associated with poop in many, many, many places.

Me. I said it. wrote:But NOT the specific type of bacteria that is accountable for 77% of the cases of dysentery in developed nations.

Yes, there are fecal bacteria and indeed fecal material in places it should not be.
No, not this type, associated ONLY with water with poop in it.

So my question is: why is it (potentially) in the GW water supply? Why is it in my paint, when I make a concerted effort to reduce my interactions with poop?

Edit: I say "poop" because this bacteria only exists in poop. Or water containing poop. So if its in the water, I would think that poop would also be in the water.

**Snarky**

Archim3des wrote:But NOT the specific type of bacteria that is accountable for 77% of the cases of dysentery in developed nations.

**balsak_da_mighty**

The Paint is made in China, is it not?

So it might be a probelm with China's water and not GW's. I didn't even know GW had there own water supply. Hum?

**Archim3des**

Snarky wrote:
Fact: Shigella dysenteriae causes Dysentry. Shigella Sonnei probably won't cause dysentry but still isn't healthy when it's in the wrong places in your body!

Such as.... your mouth, if you lick brushes? Or on your hands, which you would not sterilize after touching models (usually)?

Snarky wrote:
Also I checked the cell cultures today and there are a lot of different bacteria colonies. There was the ever so common bacillus and I think some fungal spore colonies growing on the beef agar, but I'll need to actually look down the microscope to find out what exactly they are. Also, Joe is right, fecal bacteria =/= poo.

Fecal bacteria =/= poo. Correct. Top marks. Again though, not a huuuuge stretch to assume that water that has fecal bacteria in it might also have feces. You know, the "Fecal" part of "fecal bacteria".

**Snarky**

fecal bacteria can find it's way into the paint pot when someone handling it has fecal bacteria on their hands. Even if you wash your hands thoroughly after using the bathroom, it is highly likely that there will still be a few bacterial cells that are on your hand after wiping your bum. These bacteria in the small numbers will multiply but won't be in large enough numbers to threaten your health (unless if you drank a swig of sewage) but can still fall from your hands onto everyday use items like keyboards, mice, door handles. In your case, it happened to fall into the paint pot. Don't worry about it however, it's not likely to be harmful.

I also did a spectral analysis of Devlan Mud wash before and after sterilization, and both readings came with 5-10nm of each other suggesting that inside each wash before and after sterilization, there probably are in fact less than 1x10^2 cells in the wash which means there a very few bacteria inside it.

**Archim3des**

balsak_da_mighty wrote:The Paint is made in China, is it not?

So it might be a probelm with China's water and not GW's. I didn't even know GW had there own water supply. Hum?

My bottles actually say "Made in France" and "Made in the UK". The plastic bottles though, yeah, most likely China.
And "GW's water supply" does not mean I think its coming from GW's tap. Just the tap that GW employs to fill its bottles.

**Joe Mama**

Snarky wrote:fecal bacteria can find it's way into the paint pot when someone handling it has fecal bacteria on their hands. Even if you wash your hands thoroughly after using the bathroom, it is highly likely that there will still be a few bacterial cells that are on your hand after

This.

It is silly to claim poop is everywhere these buggers can be found, even sillier to double down and say these bacteria = poop by using the terms interchangably. Is there poop on your keyboard Arch? Poop on 57 other surfaces in your residence? By your logic, if you find this type of bacteria, or any other bacteria which likes fecal matter, anywhere in your place, that means poop is in your place. On all those surfaces and objects - so you are literally in a house full of s**!. Or you can be sensible and realize there are not one and the same, and also, again, since you missed it last time, you can take care to be more aware of concentrations. By your sloppy use of terms, you'd call me a drug dealer, since I give people drugs in exchange for goods and services. You know, since a couple of molecules of cocaine are on some of my dollar bills. You'd also have to call yourself a drug dealer since I sure your money is contaminated with cocaine too, because everyone's is. What's my point here. Yammering on about "poop in my paint!" should only be the start of your long long crusade of things you don't like in or on other things you do like, because there are minute traces of stuff on everything, or minute traces of stuff associated with stuff you don't like on everything. What are you going to complain about next?

**Archim3des**

Snarky wrote:Don't worry about it however, it's not likely to be harmful.

I also did a spectral analysis of Devlan Mud wash before and after sterilization, and both readings came with 5-10nm of each other suggesting that inside each wash before and after sterilization, there probably are in fact less than 1x10^2 cells in the wash which means there a very few bacteria inside it.

Again, not worried about it affecting my health in any way. Just think that its gross that I got a pot of it that this is the case for. Full extent of my worry.
To reiterate: Affecting my health- No. Affecting the height of my smile - Yes.

Also, by 1x10^2, you do mean "100", correct? Less than 100 cells in the wash, causing a 5-10nm shift on a spectrum that is only, at largest, 300 nm wide? Since the visible light spectrum is 400nm-700nm? So 100 cells caused a shift of that much?
That ah.... that seems way way off.