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Made in us
Nimble Skeleton Charioteer





DeLand, FL

pretre wrote:
Zygrot24 wrote:Yes, it is an MMO on TT. That's okay.

This statement is just silly. It is a Massively Multiplayer Online Game on Table Top. Really? How many players are in your gaming group? I'm guessing we can't say a 'Massive' number. Okay, assuming you didn't mean it literally, how is 4E an MMO or like an MMO?


It is silly! Sadly it's a commonly used accusation of 4e.

Wasn't trying to make a super-serious inditement of 4e there. Of the 25-30 people I have played 4e with (not all at once) a large portion of them have admitted that it reminds them of WoW, EQ, etc. I think that's the streamlining talking more than anything. But it is a frequently invoked slur against 4e, stated with bitterness and indignation, both taking for granted and asserting that being MMO-reminiscent is a bad thing. I disagree that it is necessarily bad, but felt like returning the polemic ironically.

Having read all your posts in this thread, I think you and I agree 99%. /highfive

It's spelled "cavalry." NOT "calvary." 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

lol. /highfive

Yeah, the idea that something like this gets said and suddenly becomes the oft repeated truth is the most frustrating part. In most parts of daily interaction, I would just direct the person to an article on snopes, but it doesn't really work for this particular case.

Oh well.

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Made in us
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Hatfield, PA

ZombieJoe wrote:Regurgitating the same tripe you've used before is not giving supporting evidence. Where is your factual, documentable proof? I don't buy your subjective replies, drop some bibs, dorp some sauce. Come on man, bring the facts down!


Wow pot kettle...you bring out a subjective claim that 4 edition is heaviliy influenced by MMOs without any real proof, just some silly comments about things that have existed long before MMOs somehow being created by MMOs and then have audacity to whip out the "Where is your factual, documentable proof?" card. Why is anyone wasting time with this guy. He is "right and he knows it" and hasn't given any of his own facts at all so why waste time fulfilling his demands for facts that he didn't product to support his own arguement. Usually the ones most loudly demanding facts are the ones who have offered the least facts themselves...

Skriker

CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
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EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War 
   
Made in gb
The Hammer of Witches





Lincoln, UK

Wow, this thread swiftly became another pointless, bickery edition war. It's a shame this thread wasn't titled 'Current version of D&D - handle of people fight over opinion and semantics for four pages' or it would have been perfect. Come on guys, you're better than this. You're just arguing about arguing now.

DC:80SG+M+B+I+Pw40k97#+D+A++/wWD190R++T(S)DM+
htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Chicago

htj wrote:Wow, this thread swiftly became another pointless, bickery edition war. It's a shame this thread wasn't titled 'Current version of D&D - handle of people fight over opinion and semantics for four pages' or it would have been perfect. Come on guys, you're better than this. You're just arguing about arguing now.



I disagree. We are not arguing about arguing. We are simply debating about arguing.


(That's 3 levels of arguments deep, it's like Inception in here.)

6000pts

DS:80S++G++M-B-I+Pw40k98-D++A++/areWD-R+T(D)DM+

What do Humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.

Join the fight against the zombie horde! 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

htj wrote:Wow, this thread swiftly became another pointless, bickery edition war. It's a shame this thread wasn't titled 'Current version of D&D - handle of people fight over opinion and semantics for four pages' or it would have been perfect. Come on guys, you're better than this. You're just arguing about arguing now.


Wow, thanks for that insight!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grakmar wrote:
htj wrote:Wow, this thread swiftly became another pointless, bickery edition war. It's a shame this thread wasn't titled 'Current version of D&D - handle of people fight over opinion and semantics for four pages' or it would have been perfect. Come on guys, you're better than this. You're just arguing about arguing now.



I disagree. We are not arguing about arguing. We are simply debating about arguing.


(That's 3 levels of arguments deep, it's like Inception in here.)

And really we weren't even debating about arguing. We were spending a couple pages trying to get some dude to realize that his opinion was valid, but the 'facts' he based it on were false. I would say that it was different from a standard edition wars thread because we largely weren't playing the X is cool, X is not cards, but just dealing with his silly misconceptions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/08 15:17:25


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Made in gb
The Hammer of Witches





Lincoln, UK

Grakmar wrote:
htj wrote:Wow, this thread swiftly became another pointless, bickery edition war. It's a shame this thread wasn't titled 'Current version of D&D - handle of people fight over opinion and semantics for four pages' or it would have been perfect. Come on guys, you're better than this. You're just arguing about arguing now.



I disagree. We are not arguing about arguing. We are simply debating about arguing.


(That's 3 levels of arguments deep, it's like Inception in here.)


*gets little spinny thing out, just to make sure*

pretre wrote:
And really we weren't even debating about arguing. We were spending a couple pages trying to get some dude to realize that his opinion was valid, but the 'facts' he based it on were false. I would say that it was different from a standard edition wars thread because we largely weren't playing the X is cool, X is not cards, but just dealing with his silly misconceptions.


I think at this stage it's safe to say that it's not going to work.

DC:80SG+M+B+I+Pw40k97#+D+A++/wWD190R++T(S)DM+
htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

htj wrote:I think at this stage it's safe to say that it's not going to work.

Well, of course. But since when has that ever stopped the internet. Although it did have the side effect of making the bad man leave, so I guess it really did work.

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Made in gb
The Hammer of Witches





Lincoln, UK

pretre wrote:
htj wrote:I think at this stage it's safe to say that it's not going to work.

Well, of course. But since when has that ever stopped the internet. Although it did have the side effect of making the bad man leave, so I guess it really did work.


That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And in strange threads, even unrepentant posters can return to continue arguments.

Hmm. Doesn't really scan or rhyme as well...

DC:80SG+M+B+I+Pw40k97#+D+A++/wWD190R++T(S)DM+
htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




pretre wrote:
htj wrote:I think at this stage it's safe to say that it's not going to work.

Well, of course. But since when has that ever stopped the internet. Although it did have the side effect of making the bad man leave, so I guess it really did work.


Oh I'm still here, watching over you all...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm working on a post. 101 reason 4E is an MMO Rip Off.
I think you'll like it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/08 18:23:33


 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

ZombieJoe wrote:I'm working on a post. 101 reason 4E is an MMO Rip Off.
I think you'll like it.

If it is coherent and has actual facts in it, I'll probably love it. If it is the same thing written 101 times that we have already shown prior art for? Yeah, not so much.

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




pretre wrote:
ZombieJoe wrote:I'm working on a post. 101 reason 4E is an MMO Rip Off.
I think you'll like it.

If it is coherent and has actual facts in it, I'll probably love it. If it is the same thing written 101 times that we have already shown prior art for? Yeah, not so much.


Dude we both know that if I had 1000 scientifically provable facts, complete with creator commenting and the voice of God, you'd still ignore it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well for what its worth it was a fun debate. I hope nobody has any hard feelings.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/08 18:29:59


 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Well, that cinches it then. Love that button.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Havok210 wrote:For starters, I have been a long time player and I stopped for awhile after 3.5. I was wondering if the latest version was any good. I am considering picking up again and was wondering what the general opinion of it was.


It's a hot steamy pile of gak.

Go back to ADandD, or the first edition. They took everything that was good and just threw it away. NOW? Its just a marketing tool and they are shilling out on the name.
Gygax should be climbing out of his grave to kick a few heads in for what they did to the game.


I'm sticking to what I liked, and thats thge first three boxs, and the second edition/ AD and D stuff.

You can't mess with something that worked for long, and expect it to not push back.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

You know that 2nd AD&D flogged so much product that it ultimately brought TSR down, right? Just saying.

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Made in gb
The Hammer of Witches





Lincoln, UK

pretre wrote:You know that 2nd AD&D flogged so much product that it ultimately brought TSR down, right? Just saying.


Eh?

flog [flÉ’g]
vb flogs, flogging, flogged
1. (tr) to beat harshly, esp with a whip, strap, etc.
2. (tr) Brit slang to sell
3. (Transport / Nautical Terms) (intr) (of a sail) to flap noisily in the wind
4. (intr) to make progress by painful work
5. NZ to steal

I do not think it means what you think it means. Surely they didn't sell so much product that they went under?

DC:80SG+M+B+I+Pw40k97#+D+A++/wWD190R++T(S)DM+
htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

In a way, they did. Although it is a weird definition of sold. A better way to say it is they tried to sell so much product. Perhaps that wasn't completely clear. Also, I wasn't aware that flog meant sell in britain. I was using it as beat, whipped, etc. Like beating a dead horse. lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/14 13:58:34


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Made in us
Servoarm Flailing Magos







Perhaps meant in the sense that the 2nd edition product line was massive and kind of collapsed under its own weight?

I can see that. WotC is very concerned about the 'edition wars' today, that the Community is split between 3/3.5 fans, 4e fans, and of course people still playing 2nd and older editions.

2nd had a massive amount of material, with subdivisions into tons of settings:

Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, SpellJammer, Planescape, Council of Wyrms, Ravenloft, (and whatever I've forgotten...)

Most of the settings had at least 1 boxed set (usually multiple: I know I personally had a couple for SpellJammer, a couple for Dragonlance, and a bunch of random ones for other settings), a couple Monstrous Compendioum additions (either bundles of pages, new binders, or books) and some other materials.

Additionally, a lot of the setting materials were'GM only'... Players didn't really 'need' the setting material, and might find their enjoyment spoiled by it. They got the idea of doing Player's Guide to Setting X relatively late in the game. So, a gaming group only 'needed' one copy of the setting box set.

In addition, the 'brown cover' (Faux-leather covers in brown) where generally setting-agnostic books for a specific race or class. These did have a lot of value for players.

And the 'blue cover' books that covered a topic in detail. The Castle Guide was the one I have somewhere. Good for GMs, of interest to players.

Weren't there 'green cover' books for various historical eras. too?

And of course the 'core' books. Not just the PHB and DMG. I dropped out of RPGs for a few years, and when looking at 2e a few years later found that it was a very different game due to the 'Skills & Powers' stuff added after I left. It was practically an entirely different game at the core.

I kind of liked the 4e idea that they'd dedicate a year to focus on a specific setting. I hope 5th uses a similar policy.

Working on someting you'll either love or hate. Hopefully to be revealed by November.
Play the games that make you happy. 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Balance wrote:Perhaps meant in the sense that the 2nd edition product line was massive and kind of collapsed under its own weight?

Exactly. TSR went waaaaay too commercial and produced way too many products. WOTC has never gone that overboard with D&D.

Weren't there 'green cover' books for various historical eras. too?

Yeah, vikings, romans, etc.

And of course the 'core' books. Not just the PHB and DMG. I dropped out of RPGs for a few years, and when looking at 2e a few years later found that it was a very different game due to the 'Skills & Powers' stuff added after I left. It was practically an entirely different game at the core.

I think that was considered 2.5, but yeah.


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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






5E is looking like 2E. Worrying.

I like 4E. Streamlined.
   
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Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Phototoxin wrote:5E is looking like 2E. Worrying.

I like 4E. Streamlined.


/shrug

Just like every other edition change, your old books are still good. I have milk crates full of 3.0 and 3.5 books in my garage in case I ever want to use them.

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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

From the perspective of play, 4E is hardly streamlined. If anything, it's just a much, much deeper tactical experience. But that depth shows in terms of how long combats take. By comparison, theater-of-the-mind combat in AD&D was lightning fast.

   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Manchu wrote:From the perspective of play, 4E is hardly streamlined. If anything, it's just a much, much deeper tactical experience. But that depth shows in terms of how long combats take. By comparison, theater-of-the-mind combat in AD&D was lightning fast.


I don't remember combat being any faster in AD&D, although it has been a while. I'm assuming less options would make it faster though. 4E does have the problem of 'Uhh, what should I do this turn' that is less of a problem as you head back into the depths of time.

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Made in gb
The Hammer of Witches





Lincoln, UK

pretre wrote:
Manchu wrote:From the perspective of play, 4E is hardly streamlined. If anything, it's just a much, much deeper tactical experience. But that depth shows in terms of how long combats take. By comparison, theater-of-the-mind combat in AD&D was lightning fast.


I don't remember combat being any faster in AD&D, although it has been a while. I'm assuming less options would make it faster though. 4E does have the problem of 'Uhh, what should I do this turn' that is less of a problem as you head back into the depths of time.


I run two Pathfinder campaigns, and play in a 4E one, and the 4E combats are definitely longer lasting. I think one of the major factors is that monsters seem to have a lot more in the way of HP, and so take longer to go down in 4E. Coupled with the more involved tactical gameplay, of course.

And delayed 'ah I see' to your response from earlier, pretre.

DC:80SG+M+B+I+Pw40k97#+D+A++/wWD190R++T(S)DM+
htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Yeah, I actually cut all HP in half when I DM 4E games. It just makes things go faster. I also have a tendency to wing it a bit more than most and if players have basically won the combat, suddenly the badguys start dying in cinematic ways everytime they swing a sword.

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Made in gb
The Hammer of Witches





Lincoln, UK

pretre wrote:Yeah, I actually cut all HP in half when I DM 4E games. It just makes things go faster. I also have a tendency to wing it a bit more than most and if players have basically won the combat, suddenly the badguys start dying in cinematic ways everytime they swing a sword.


That's a pretty good idea. Although I've two ex or current 4E DMs in my group, so they might start getting suspicious if I did that. The long combats was one of the reasons I stopped DMing 4E. But there were a few other things too. It's fun to play, but I really don't like DMing it.

DC:80SG+M+B+I+Pw40k97#+D+A++/wWD190R++T(S)DM+
htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Oh. I enjoy DM'ing any kind of game, but yeah, that was something I did really early on in 4E and enjoyed. I need to remind the other guy who is DMing about that. We had a miserable fight on Sunday. It's always awkward to give someone else DM tips. lol

It also depends on the party composition. Double striker or a strikery defender can really speed things up.


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Made in gb
The Hammer of Witches





Lincoln, UK

Any character class I play in 4E ends up being a striker. There's a little part of me that's constantly saying 'yeah, yeah, more damage!' that I can't see to silence.

DC:80SG+M+B+I+Pw40k97#+D+A++/wWD190R++T(S)DM+
htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

htj wrote:Any character class I play in 4E ends up being a striker. There's a little part of me that's constantly saying 'yeah, yeah, more damage!' that I can't see to silence.

lol. Yeah, I've always been a bit of a numbers whore in every edition. Our current party is actually pretty decent on both control and raw damage, so we make things go a bit faster. When the DM's only options are 'stand up and swing uselessly', it makes combat go faster.

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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

It seems to me the idea of minions existed in 4E from the start and 4E combat has been slow from the start.

   
 
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