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Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Manchu wrote:It seems to me the idea of minions existed in 4E from the start and 4E combat has been slow from the start.


Oh, I think minions were one of the greatest new things about 4E. What I am saying is that at a certain point in the combat it becomes a foregone conclusion. At that point, a lot of non-minions tend to end up bloodied really quick and then end up dead even quicker. Basically, I cheat to make the combat less of a drag. I think this is something that I did in 3E as well when it came to mop up operations on combats.

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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

I don't see the point of it. It's like not charging people for rent in Monopoly because its a drag for the banker. Fourth Edition shines brightest as tactically deep gameplay. If you need to cut corners to make things more fun for you and your group, I'd suggest playing a ruleset that doesn't have those ... erm, corners.

   
Made in gb
The Hammer of Witches





Lincoln, UK

Manchu wrote:I don't see the point of it. It's like not charging people for rent in Monopoly because its a drag for the banker. Fourth Edition shines brightest as tactically deep gameplay. If you need to cut corners to make things more fun for you and your group, I'd suggest playing a ruleset that doesn't have those ... erm, corners.


I don't know. Although there are loads of rule-sets out there, the chances of finding one that absolutely perfectly fits your group's dynamic aren't super high. I mean, most GMs have a couple of house rules for the system they run. You might enjoy everything about a system but one thing, so why not change that one thing?

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Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






If you are using the older monster manuals for 4e I can see it, but from Monster Vault on WotC have, in general, decreased HP and increased the amount of damage. If you are going to half the HP you need to also give them some kind of attack or damage bump.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Manchu wrote:I don't see the point of it. It's like not charging people for rent in Monopoly because its a drag for the banker. Fourth Edition shines brightest as tactically deep gameplay. If you need to cut corners to make things more fun for you and your group, I'd suggest playing a ruleset that doesn't have those ... erm, corners.


I agree that it shines best in tactics, but you may be missing what I'm saying. In any system, there is often the point in the combat where an opponent that can't or won't surrender is outmatched and the combat is a foregone conclusion. This is especially true if your party likes the 'cut off the head of the snake' approach. You can hack away at hit points for those remaining badguys or you can speed things up a bit.

@Ahtman: I haven't DM'd since the new vault came out (with standard monsters at least), so that may have been my early 4E experience talking. My last game was using the converted fourthcore modules from Savevsdeath and before that I was a player for a while. My early 4E experience (before they released the new monster stuff and the new app on the site for monster maintenance) was that they were too buff and just ground on. Good to know they fixed that one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
htj wrote:I don't know. Although there are loads of rule-sets out there, the chances of finding one that absolutely perfectly fits your group's dynamic aren't super high. I mean, most GMs have a couple of house rules for the system they run. You might enjoy everything about a system but one thing, so why not change that one thing?

Exactly. We love 4th ed, but I have always tweaked my games to do what felt right. Whether that is letting someone use a feat in a new and inventive way, changing a class feature for a player's request or finding ways to make combats go smoother, it is all the same thing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/14 17:03:48


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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Chicago

Manchu wrote:I don't see the point of it. It's like not charging people for rent in Monopoly because its a drag for the banker. Fourth Edition shines brightest as tactically deep gameplay. If you need to cut corners to make things more fun for you and your group, I'd suggest playing a ruleset that doesn't have those ... erm, corners.

To me, this is a poor analogy.

The purpose of playing most board games (like Monopoly) is to win, typically by out-thinking and out-lucking your opponents. The rules are set in stone because everyone is being competitive and you need rules to govern things.

But, most P&P games (like D&D) are not competitive, but co-operative. Their purpose isn't to win, it's to sit around and have fun with your group of friends. The rules should exist in only as much as to create a loose framework for having fun. But, the moment something isn't fun, it should be ditched entirely.

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Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Grakmar wrote:But, most P&P games (like D&D) are not competitive, but co-operative. Their purpose isn't to win, it's to sit around and have fun with your group of friends. The rules should exist in only as much as to create a loose framework for having fun. But, the moment something isn't fun, it should be ditched entirely.

That's a really good summation.

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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Grakmar wrote:To me, this is a poor analogy.
It's actually not, for a couple of reasons.

You seem to assume that competitive games are the only games that can be won. This is obviously false. The recent D&D boardgames, for example, are entirely cooperative and they certainly can be won or lost. You also seem to assume that there are no competing interests in tabletop roleplaying games. This is also obviously false. You could argue that you actually meant something "softer": rules are necessary because of competition and therefore rules are not as important in Fourth Edition because competition as between the players isn't the main point of that game. But the same objection applies: there are still competing interests and whether or not they are the supreme focus they still demand rules. In D&D 4E, especially regarding combat, competing interests are indeed the supreme focus. There are hostile teams on the board. In order for the game to be fun on its own terms, it must be fair. This is just as true of 4E as it is of monopoly.

If you have to change the rules of Monopoly so it's more like Battleship in order to be fun, you'd be much better off just playing Battleship. A lot of people treat RPGs as privileged regarding rules, as if the game were something besides the rules. It's actually not the case. Simply put, anybody can "roleplay" anything at anytime. You don't need dice, you don't need character sheets, you don't need a mat or minis or markers or any books to roleplay. If you want to play a certain game, however, you need the rules of that game to hand -- even if they're house rules. (And "ignoring rules when convenient" is not a houserule.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grakmar wrote:The rules should exist in only as much as to create a loose framework for having fun.
I don't know how anyone can look at the 4E rules and see a "loose framework."

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/14 18:12:32


   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

The same way you can look at any gaming system and see a loose framework. It's all a matter of perspective. Are the rules there to help you roleplay, roll some dice and have a good time or are the rules there to make sure you play by the rules?

For my group, it is the former. If something gets in the way of that, we can change it.

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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

And again if that's what you want to do, there are far better games for it than 4E -- in fact, no edition of D&D is worse suited to that approach than 4E.

   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Manchu wrote:And again if that's what you want to do, there are far better games for it than 4E -- in fact, no edition of D&D is worse suited to that approach than 4E.

You keep saying that, but I just don't get it. Sure, there is probably a magical system that does exactly what I want in every way, but I don't own it and don't really want to play it. It may be the worst possible edition for that approach, but we have had a lot of fun doing it and haven't had any difficulties. I've modified every edition of D&D I've played (going back to the white book D&D I inherited from my parents) to fit my games and none of them have been difficult.

So you are probably right, but it really doesn't matter.

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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

pretre wrote:So you are probably right, but it really doesn't matter.
True enough, as to your fun. But this tangent started because you objected to me saying combat in Fourth Edition was slow. And what we've just figured out is that I was playing Fourth Edition RAW and you were modifying explicitly to make things faster. So whether you think 4E combat is fast or slow is really immaterial to whether it actually is fast or slow since you aren't really talking about 4E in the first place.

A: "Monopoly is a game about buying property."
B: "No, it's about beavers building dams."
A: "Have you read the rules?"
B: "Rules schmools."

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/14 18:34:07


   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Manchu wrote:
pretre wrote:So you are probably right, but it really doesn't matter.
True enough, as to your fun. But this tangent started because you objected to me saying combat in Fourth Edition was slow. And what we've just figured out is that I was playing Fourth Edition RAW and you were modifying explicitly to make things faster. So whether you think 4E combat is fast or slow is really immaterial to whether it actually is fast or slow since you aren't really talking about 4E in the first place.

Right? I'm not sure of your point. I clearly said all these things originally and then you went off on how I play the game... I'm kinda confused where you're going with this.

Yeah, I don't play 'RAW 4E'. I play modified 4E. I have played RAW 4E and thought that the combat could be slow at times, so I sped it up.

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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

See example dialog above.

   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Gargh, stop editing!

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Made in us
Servoarm Flailing Magos







Minions in 4e seem to work best when they play to stereotypes: Clump up in 2s-3s and charge at individual heros.

Yes, that leaves them vulnerable to multiple-attack powers and wizard spells.

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Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Right, but I said

Yeah, I actually cut all HP in half when I DM 4E games. It just makes things go faster. I also have a tendency to wing it a bit more than most and if players have basically won the combat, suddenly the badguys start dying in cinematic ways everytime they swing a sword.

And you said

It seems to me the idea of minions existed in 4E from the start and 4E combat has been slow from the start.

So I was giving an example of how the game is a bit slow and how I fixed it. You then brought up minions and said it was slow as well. I then gave another example of how I mess with the game to fit better in my group:

Oh, I think minions were one of the greatest new things about 4E. What I am saying is that at a certain point in the combat it becomes a foregone conclusion. At that point, a lot of non-minions tend to end up bloodied really quick and then end up dead even quicker. Basically, I cheat to make the combat less of a drag. I think this is something that I did in 3E as well when it came to mop up operations on combats.
You then went off on how I play the game:

I don't see the point of it. It's like not charging people for rent in Monopoly because its a drag for the banker. Fourth Edition shines brightest as tactically deep gameplay. If you need to cut corners to make things more fun for you and your group, I'd suggest playing a ruleset that doesn't have those ... erm, corners.


etc, so on.

So I was just talking about how I like to speed things up and you started telling me that you didn't see the point of ever changing the rules of a game to make it more fun for the players.

It has nothing to do with your example dialog.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/14 18:38:47


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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Balance wrote:Yes, that leaves them vulnerable to multiple-attack powers and wizard spells.
When I first saw minions in the MM, I was awestruck at the sheer brilliance of that concept. Instead of making the character feel powerful by focusing on the power itself, make the character feel powerful by allowing the player to use the powers effectively. Bowling would be gak if all the pins rather than just some of them were really tough to knock down.

   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Oh, you're talking about this:
Manchu wrote:
From the perspective of play, 4E is hardly streamlined. If anything, it's just a much, much deeper tactical experience. But that depth shows in terms of how long combats take. By comparison, theater-of-the-mind combat in AD&D was lightning fast.


pretre wrote:I don't remember combat being any faster in AD&D, although it has been a while. I'm assuming less options would make it faster though. 4E does have the problem of 'Uhh, what should I do this turn' that is less of a problem as you head back into the depths of time.


Yeah, I was over that as soon as I responded. My next response was to htj, not you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And in my response to htj, I was agreeing that 4E was a bit slow and how I respond to it in game. So we're back to being in agreement.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/14 18:41:58


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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

pretre wrote:So I was just talking about how I like to speed things up and you started telling me that you didn't see the point of ever changing the rules of a game to make it more fun for the players.
What you described, using your own words, is "cheating." That's not the same thing as "changing the rules." But even if we were talking about "changing the rules," how many rules do you need to change before you're playing one game instead of another? Fourth Edition is all about deep, balanced combat -- which takes time. If you want faster combat, it does make sense to change the rules -- like systematically halving monster HP (although I think that's not a great solution). In fact, the 4E designers had the same problem with 3E that you do with 4E: combat is slow. So they came up with something like you slashing HP values, although their minion solution was more clever by far (no offense, minions are really cool). Even with that kind of "rules change" the combat remains slow and you can't really change that because it is part and parcel of the game and the point of the design, which is tactical. So if you're still not liking that, a "rules change" isn't ever going to be enough -- which is exactly what you described. Now it's cheating: arbitrarily dispensing with the rules because they're a drag. How is it not clear that what's actually happening is that you're not enjoying 4E?

I had a friend who once told me, I like playing golf except for the part about walking around and trying to hit the ball into the holes. Now he could go to the course and just drink beer all day and ride the cart. That would be "fun golf" for him. But actually it's not golf at all. (Just as a disclaimer, I'm obviously using a formalistic comparison to illustrate a point rather than looking for an exact analog.) Cheating at a game is basically just avoiding the game. If you have to cheat to get any enjoyment then you don't really like the game itself. By all means, I welcome you to continue playing 4E. I will not come to your house and flip over your table. It's just a little friendly advice. Just like I said to my friend when asked if I wanted to play golf: "why don't we just drink some beers outside instead." It was a much nicer time for everyone. What I'm hearing you say is "hey, buddy, I prefer to get drunk on the course." Fine with me.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/06/14 18:52:59


   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Whatever, dude. You're right. I'm out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/14 18:55:51


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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Thread irony levels approaching maximum!

   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Seriously? I know I'm going to get a warning for this, but whatever.

Do you have to be a dick? I explained to you that we had a misunderstanding over who I was replying to and then you kept going. You are badgering me over how I play the game for no apparent reason. I conceded the point early on that I play a modified version of the game and you have attacked that as an inappropriate decision and told me that I should just play another game instead.

Finally, I decide to quit the conversation and you just have to rub it in.

Good job, Manchu! Way to represent.

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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

How many pages of this thread are you and ZombieJoe debating? Is debate only okay when you have the better points? If you want to huff off, consider the saying about pots and kettles before calling someone else a dick.

   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Manchu wrote:How many pages of this thread are you and ZombieJoe debating? Is debate only okay when you have the better points? If you want to huff off, consider the saying about pots and kettles before calling someone else a dick.


There's a difference between Zombiejoe making a statement that begs argument and me debating with him and me saying how I play the game and you chasing me down to tell me how wrong I am for playing that way.

I did not tell Zombiejoe his opinions were invalid. I just told him the facts he based them on were incorrect and provided proof.

You are specifically going after me and telling me that because I play the game in a way that you don't approve of, I should quit and play a different game. I ceded the point to you repeatedly that I was not playing normal 4E. Heck, it was in my initial posts where I described how I was playing. And yet you keep coming after me. You're still doing it. I try to quit the thread, you rub salt in the wound. How is that not you being a dick?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/14 19:16:30


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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

I have said, emphatically because I know how people like to cast internet debate as this intensely personal confrontation, that I wasn't coming to your house to flip your table over. As for you, "quitting the thread" the classic "whatever dude" post is not "quitting the thread" nor are further posts calling me a dick or characterizing me as personally attacking you, or rubbing salt in your wounds, etc. So this is a lot like the ZombieJoe deal. Your "cheating" is certainly valid as to how you want to have fun. Your factual appriasal about 4E is incorrect, however. I agreed with you when you said that my opinion didn't matter because you have fun doing it your way. My point isn't that you should have fun in a particular way. We actually already kind of talked about this, when you mentioned that you and your group weren't interested in doing anything but what you were already doing.

   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Manchu wrote:I have said, emphatically because I know how people like to cast internet debate as this intensely personal confrontation, that I wasn't coming to your house to flip your table over.

Of course, you aren't. Because if you did, that would be a ridiculous statement. What you are doing is coming into the thread and repeatedly telling me I am wrong for modifying the game and that I should go play something else.

I agree with you time and time again and you just have to tell me I am wrong again and again.

As for you, "quitting the thread" the classic "whatever dude" post is not "quitting the thread" nor are further posts calling me a dick or characterizing me as personally attacking you, or rubbing salt in your wounds, etc. So this is a lot like the ZombieJoe deal.

I'm sorry... Was "I'm out" unclear? You just had to get the irony dig in, right?

Your "cheating" is certainly valid as to how you want to have fun. Your factual appriasal about 4E is incorrect, however.
I also think that you are intentionally emphasizing cheating again and again. I said it once to try to make a lighthearted point that I was manipulating the rules to make the game fun. You are driving it at me again and again. How is my factual appraisal incorrect? It agrees with yours? I said the combat could be slow. I agreed so much that I said that I changed the rules in order to speed it up.

I agreed with you when you said that my opinion didn't matter because you have fun doing it your way. My point isn't that you should have fun in a particular way. We actually already kind of talked about this, when you mentioned that you and your group weren't interested in doing anything but what you were already doing.

Then why do you feel the need to tell me to go play another game and that I am wrong again and again? If you're so interested in letting me having fun my way, then let me have fun and stop trying to prove that the way I play is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, count up how many times I said I cheated and then how many times you did? I had actually forgotten I had said it and by the time your post came around I found it insulting how many times you said it. My original 'Whatever' post was calling you out on name-calling. I had to scroll back to the previous page to find the post where I actually used the word cheat. Seriously, take a step back and read that post and tell me that isn't insulting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/14 19:33:57


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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

I am using the word "cheat" because that is exactly what you were referring to and furthermore, I'm not putting words in your mouth when I refer to your solution as cheating. Are you trying to say it's not cheating now? It was just a joke?

Also, I am not telling you that you are "wrong" with regard to how you are playing. You keep saying this over and over again, along with characterizations of me "going off" and "attacking" you, but those things aren't getting any more true. Indeed, besides your intial point about 4E being no more slow than AD&D, what could I be saying you were wrong about? Maybe this is why you emphasize that you agree with me and then, supposedly, I respond by saying you are still wrong. That account makes no sense. Because it is false.

The point that I am making is about rules. Why do we have rules? Grakmar gave one take on it: as a loose framework to have fun doing something that is inherently separate from those rules. But that is not the only approach, even if that is what RPGers are always emphasizing. Third and Fourth Editions are especially good example of how that "loose framework" approach is not all that's out there. Those are immensely complicated games. The fact is that playing the rules of the game can itself fun. This is what 3E and 4E were designed to do in contrast to other games.

So, as I have been saying, this really isn't about you or how you and your group play. I am, however, talking about the assumptions that I see underlying your posts, which Grakmar made explicit and then you totally agreed with, confirming my analysis that they were indeed your assumptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote:I had to scroll back to the previous page to find the post where I actually used the word cheat. Seriously, take a step back and read that post and tell me that isn't insulting.
You mean this post:
Manchu wrote:What you described, using your own words, is "cheating."
where I specifically pointed out that I was using your terms? And the post in question was not on a previous page. It's the first post on this page:
pretre wrote:Basically, I cheat to make the combat less of a drag.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/06/14 19:46:47


   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Yes, I said it once. You have badgered me with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am using the word "cheat" because that is exactly what you were referring to and furthermore, I'm not putting words in your mouth when I refer to your solution as cheating. Are you trying to say it's not cheating now? It was just a joke?

I AM saying that you repeatedly using the word Cheat to describe the act of playing the game using different rules than you are comfortable with is really frakking annoying. I said cheat once to describe it. I also used 'changing rules', 'fudging' etc. You aren't using those. You are consistently emphasizing that it is cheating. I believe you are doing that intentionally to try to drive home your point. My contention is that this behavior can be considered 'being a dick' because of the known negative connotations of the concept of cheating.

Also, I am not telling you that you are "wrong" with regard to how you are playing. You keep saying this over and over again, along with characterizations of me "going off" and "attacking" you, but those things aren't getting any more true. Indeed, besides your intial point about 4E being no more slow than AD&D, what could I be saying you were wrong about?

"If you need to cut corners to make things more fun for you and your group, I'd suggest playing a ruleset that doesn't have those ... erm, corners. "
You claiming that me making shortcuts means I should just play another game.
"And again if that's what you want to do, there are far better games for it than 4E -- in fact, no edition of D&D is worse suited to that approach than 4E. "
You claiming that me making shortcuts means I should just play another game.

Me saying you are right and that I agree with your point and that it doesn't matter because it is a matter of fun and you still arguing with me:
pretre wrote:So you are probably right, but it really doesn't matter.

True enough, as to your fun. But this tangent started because you objected to me saying combat in Fourth Edition was slow. And what we've just figured out is that I was playing Fourth Edition RAW and you were modifying explicitly to make things faster. So whether you think 4E combat is fast or slow is really immaterial to whether it actually is fast or slow since you aren't really talking about 4E in the first place.

I conceded all your points in a later post and then you went on with your post where you use the word cheat four times to make your point. How is this not saying I'm wrong and then coming after me after I conceded all of your points?

The point that I am making is about rules. Why do we have rules? Grakmar gave one take on it: as a loose framework to have fun doing something that is inherently separate from those rules. But that is not the only approach, even if that is what RPGers are always emphasizing. Third and Fourth Editions are especially good example of how that "loose framework" approach is not all that's out there. Those are immensely complicated games. The fact is that playing the rules of the game can itself fun. This is what 3E and 4E were designed to do in contrast to other games.

I agree with this point.

So, as I have been saying, this really isn't about you or how you and your group play. I am, however, talking about the assumptions that I see underlying your posts, which Grakmar made explicit and then you totally agreed with, confirming my analysis that they were indeed your assumptions.

What assumption am I making that you need to tell me to go play a different game everytime I make it?


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The point that I am making is about rules. Why do we have rules? Grakmar gave one take on it: as a loose framework to have fun doing something that is inherently separate from those rules. But that is not the only approach, even if that is what RPGers are always emphasizing. Third and Fourth Editions are especially good example of how that "loose framework" approach is not all that's out there. Those are immensely complicated games. The fact is that playing the rules of the game can itself fun. This is what 3E and 4E were designed to do in contrast to other games.


Just because 3E and 4E were designed to be 'tight' games doesn't mean they aren't also GAMES. That means that we can still play them as loose frameworks. This seems to be the contention that you are most objecting to.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/06/14 19:54:32


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I don't see how you can twist this into a personal matter.

I explicitly used "cheat" as a term to contrast against "changing the rules."
Manchu wrote:What you described, using your own words, is "cheating." That's not the same thing as "changing the rules."
So you knew the context I intended all along and just ignored it. Sorry but I refuse to play into this.
pretre wrote:What assumption am I making that you need to tell me to go play a different game everytime I make it?
The assumption that all rulesets are in effect equivalent because you will just change them at will to do whatever you need to in the moment. I'm not telling you to stop playing 4E because you don't know what you'e doing and you're insulting me by doing what you're doing. I'm saying, different rules systems are good for different things. The thing that you seem to want to do can be accomplished so much more easily with a game that wasn't designed to do the opposite. And for the last time, I'm not even talking about you personally, despite your insistence to the contrary. This is an abstract discussion and the point I'm arguing against is the "loose framework" style equivocation of all rules.

   
 
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