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Crossbows and Pistols are both 1HD weapons, a Veiled Assassin can use both in Range Combat.

O.o my whole world is flip turned upside down....

There was a Q&A somewhere(I think it was the errata from 1.1 to 1.2 or from 1.0 to 1.1) that especially said that if a Weasel Fusilier is upgrading it's crossbow to a rifle, the crossbow is lost with it's counterfire ability. (I think the crossbow didn't got counterfire back then, the weasel fusilier got it as it's own)

Following the same logic here, with the pistol coming in, the crossbow goes out. Especially, since right next to the word "pistol" on the assassin's character page, it says "2nd dagger", which clearly states that the assassin can dual wield daggers... so it's just confusing.

I agree the stat cards for the models are really useful and are stating the statistics for the models and weapons, but we just don't have them all. If you guys ever put out a pack of all the stat cards in the game, I think I will buy it, but for many units we still have to rely on the book. I also think the stat cards shouldn't be necessities for the game. If the book would list these as in Alfndrate's example, that would be great.

Also(I'm not sure, because they are not with me right now but I will double-check) my Warlord's card still has the "2nd dagger" entry and does not lists "Heavy Bolt" for the crossbow. They are not accurate, so it would be really useful if the unit's character page would list these things.

About the definitions. "Light Cavalry" is still means four different abilities, and at least a reminder in the characters page and on the stat card would be useful about what they are, because... well it's four ability, and searching for the page about cavalry units takes a little time, and these little times add up. This is true for lot of the definitions. Elite is just borderline descriptive for "Immune to fear" and definitely doesn't suggest that the squad limit is 5, yet means both. "Heavy Bolt" isn't not suggests that I can counterfire with it. "Extended Reach" not suggest that this weapon can be wielded with a shield. Why the armory section defines things like Pistolier, Extended Reach, Quick Nock, Rifling, Pilum and so on, if these terms aren't getting used in the rulebook?

It's not that I would not be able to learn these, but it could be so much easier.

If this sounds a little offensive, I'm sorry about it.

On a brighter note, I just finished painting some Brushfire minis. I'll try to upload some photos when I'll have them but I wouldn't terrorize the forum with low res, out of focus pics that my phone can make.

There is a limit to the amount of information you can fit on a playing card sized peice of paper... Some cards in particular are already pretty full, I can't imagine fitting all the information your suggesting on a single card and going to multiple cards wouldn't be a good solution either.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
There was a Q&A somewhere(I think it was the errata from 1.1 to 1.2 or from 1.0 to 1.1) that especially said that if a Weasel Fusilier is upgrading it's crossbow to a rifle, the crossbow is lost with it's counterfire ability. (I think the crossbow didn't got counterfire back then, the weasel fusilier got it as it's own)

So, looking at the 1.0 to 1.1 errata, which Cy linked me to, you're right there is a question in there about the weasel with a rifle and a crossbow. You also have to remember that that errata was released in 2011, we're 2 years beyond that, and have the next printing of the book out (1.2). While not much has changed between the two of the versions, the FAQ brings to light that a model could not feasibly shoot with their rifles (a 2 handed weapon) in the shooting phase, and then expect to have their crossbows at the ready should they get charged. I could see if you were to get charged before your activation you could decide which weapon to use, though why your weasels with rifles are being charged is beyond me.

Following the same logic here, with the pistol coming in, the crossbow goes out. Especially, since right next to the word "pistol" on the assassin's character page, it says "2nd dagger", which clearly states that the assassin can dual wield daggers... so it's just confusing.

The other way to look at it is that a Crossbow in Brushfire is a 1 handed weapon, and all 1 HD weapons may be paired with a shield or another 1 HD weapon. Since both a pistol and a crossbow are 1 handed weapons, you can use them both in the Ranged Phase. The issue arises with the Charge Reaction Counter-Fire. If your unit has already activated, then they would only get the option of using their Crossbows, but if they had yet to activate they could fire both weapons. I guess I'm not seeing what's confusing about having a second dagger in relation to the pistol, should the Veiled Assassin's have "2nd Ranged Weapon: Pistol"?

I agree the stat cards for the models are really useful and are stating the statistics for the models and weapons, but we just don't have them all. If you guys ever put out a pack of all the stat cards in the game, I think I will buy it, but for many units we still have to rely on the book. I also think the stat cards shouldn't be necessities for the game. If the book would list these as in Alfndrate's example, that would be great.

The stat cards are necessary for play simply because it saves you the time and hassle of having to check the rulebook. Many other skirmish level games use statcards, and it's a breeze during games. Warmachine and Hordes being one of the obvious ones, I've got hundreds of points from those games, and I only own a single Faction book, because there is nothing that I need that I can't find in the stat card. Just like with this game, there is nothing you need that can't be found (for the most part) on the Stat Card, there is minor things like the Crossbow's Heavy Bolt, but that's considered a common ability of the crossbow, so if you know what the crossbow does, then you know what Heavy Bolt does. This is to save time and space. Malifaux, being another example of a skirmish game, does this same thing. They write out the model specific abilities, and anything that is considered "common" appears in the rulebook, and after some time, you shouldn't have much of a need to keep checking the book.

Also(I'm not sure, because they are not with me right now but I will double-check) my Warlord's card still has the "2nd dagger" entry and does not lists "Heavy Bolt" for the crossbow. They are not accurate, so it would be really useful if the unit's character page would list these things.

If your Warlord has information on it's stat card that is different from what's in the current rulebook, then you're playing with out of date stat cards, which is probably the root of your frustration in this situation. OTL does sell individual stat cards, and they're the most up to date. Though just to be complete in this, could you snap a picture and upload it to dakka, you can black out any important information (such as stats and abilities), I'm looking at mainly the shape and size of the card.

About the definitions. "Light Cavalry" is still means four different abilities, and at least a reminder in the characters page and on the stat card would be useful about what they are, because... well it's four ability, and searching for the page about cavalry units takes a little time, and these little times add up. This is true for lot of the definitions. Elite is just borderline descriptive for "Immune to fear" and definitely doesn't suggest that the squad limit is 5, yet means both. "Heavy Bolt" isn't not suggests that I can counterfire with it. "Extended Reach" not suggest that this weapon can be wielded with a shield. Why the armory section defines things like Pistolier, Extended Reach, Quick Nock, Rifling, Pilum and so on, if these terms aren't getting used in the rulebook?

There is a reminder on the Character page and the stat card... They both say: Type: Light Cavalry. So you go to the Cavalry page (page 23 in the rulebook) and see what cavalry and light cavalry get, and now you have your answer. Also all unit types are contained on Page 23. I'm not sure where you're looking at that Elite doesn't suggest that the squad limit is 5... on page 23 it says the following:

Brushfire - Historia Rodentia -, page 23 wrote:Elite
Squad Cap: 5 Models.
Immune to Fear.

Seems fairly straight forward to me. As to Heavy Bolt, the counterfire is not on the heavy bolt, but on the fact that your crossbow is a ranged weapon like it says in the Counterfire Charge Reaction. Heavy Bolt specifically let's you take counterfire even if you've already activated that turn, in addition to the plus 1 damage it does on a critical hit. The reason why things like Pistolier, Extended Reach, Quick Nock, Rifling, Pilum are in the rulebook is because they're weapon specific things. If a model can take a Pistol, they're going to gain the benefits of Pistolier, Extended Reach is actually a formatting issue. Extended Reach is is just for the ability to attack through 2 models. The other benefits, like being able to use it with a pike with a shield is specifically on the Pike, and not the Extended Reach. I can see that one getting fixed in the near future with an errata update.

If a charging Gecko Rider can holster it's long rifle and ready it's bladed ram while charging, I expect a Weasel Fusilier can grab their crossbows and counterfire while being charged, even if they mainly use rifles. Especially since swords(their melee weapons) are also one handed, and they have no shields, they could grab their crossbows. Weapon swaps are seeming to work instantly in this game. So does it's basic equipment ever gets removed from a model?

My main frustration is that our matches are always end with somebody checking out the rulebook because we didn't wanted to during the match and found out we did it all wrong because some unit works differently, or have some equipment nobody remembers it to have and so on. We slowly learn these things, but I wonder if it has to be like this.

The cards are generally okay (mines are outdated, but I still find them really helpful) but what I say is that the unit character pages in the rulebook should say more.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
The cards are generally okay (mines are outdated, but I still find them really helpful) but what I say is that the unit character pages in the rulebook should say more.

If you would be so kind as to look at your rulebook, do you see a whole lot of white space on the unit pages? The problem with book publishing is that you try to fit all the important stuff that you can on a page, because each additional page adds money to the cost. Like if I add 2 pages of information (the front and back of a page, so like pages 255 and 256, I would have to find room elsewhere in the book for the other 2 sides of the sheet of paper I've just added to the book. More pages, means more expensive the book. The rulebook is already 254 pages, and retails for quite the nice price, but that's because there is very little white space, the book is a smaller size, and it's in black and white, these are all measures to keep the costs down for OTL and for us the consumer.

Veiled Assassins can use a pistol and crossbow in one activation!? I'm not sure why that's annoying me.

How come the models don't have those options? Are they out of date?

 Casey's Law wrote:
Veiled Assassins can use a pistol and crossbow in one activation!? I'm not sure why that's annoying me.

How come the models don't have those options? Are they out of date?

Every Veiled Assassin miniature comes with a Pistol Hand (Left Hand) and a Crossbow Hand (Right Hand)...

Also technically Veiled Assassins can use a Crossbow, a Pistol, and then the pistol again with a dagger, or 2 taggers in a single activation

Then what about the Weasel Fusiliers? Can they keep their Crossbows?

The errata is old, and was not accurate to the intent.

You can only use "two hands" (2HD) worth of ranged weapons, and 2HD worth of Melee weapons in a single activation. if you use your rifle during a turn, you lose the Free Counterfire from the Crossbow.

If you use your free counterfire, the model cannot use their rifle during their activation on that turn.

So you keep your crossbow, but you cannot use both it and the rifle in the same turn.

The pistol is a 1H weapon, so it can be used with a crossbow.

Casey, the Crossbow represents both a hand/light crossbow and a heavy crossbow, it all depends on the model carrying it. There are only three basic 1H ranged weapons, the Javelin, the Pistol, and the Crossbow, and pretty much the Veiled Assassins are the only one where it comes up that the Crossbow is 1HD.

But isn't activating to do something then later that turn using a "can always counterfire" ability is two activations?

Okay. 'during the same turn'

 WhiteRoo wrote:
But isn't activating to do something then later that turn using a "can always counterfire" ability is two activations?

If you activate your Weasels, which have both a rifle and a crossbow, and you fire the rifles that activation, you're using those rifles until their next activation, and would not be able to use the Crossbow's ability to "always take the counterfire charge reaction." If you were to use the crossbows during your activation, then you'd get the extra counter fires.

The same thing holds true if you were to be charged by something before you activated. Since charge reactions count as your activation, you may counter fire one time with the rifles, or counterfire as your normal charge reaction with crossbows and then gain the extra counterfire from the Crossbow's ability to be used later that turn.

"Effects provided by a weapon only apply during that turn, if you use it during a phase, or have enough free Hands (1HD or 2HD) to still use the weapon."

How it will be phrased in the next errata/update.

I see, thanks!

No problem

Get your minis painted and up here on Dakka

Aha, oh yeh the guns were in the other hand. So do we just have to remind the opponent what upgrades we've taken? Since we can't show all the weapons without converting the miniatures?

This is making me rethink things. For instance I decided that when i use the Assassins I'd keep the base weapons so that they could stay out of range and annoy the opponent. Now I'm thinking I should take the upgrades just incase. Hmmm...

The best option is to go full on WYSIWYG and attach one or more of the weapons to a belt or a strap.

If you have the resources, get the the Pistol Upgrade... if things are tight, got for the Dagger/or stay base. Pistol gives you 2 Shots at 15", and a second Melee Weapon via 'Pistoleer'

We have just run into the next one during a recent match.

We decided to run a fun game with some crazy lists, so I brought in Gotz von Frederwerk for my Vandalands army while the other side brought in Tatamata for his Ribenguo. His plan was to walk trough the battlefield with Tatamata, using his Gajin ability and take out Frederwerk. When Tatamata was charged I activated Frederwerk for a flee. We didn't finished the game because we had no time.

So the things we wasn't able to figure out:

Is artillery attack(like Frederwerk's flame cannon) has to be aimed at models/squads? The book mentions target squads, but in the same time it also says that fortifications can be attacked, which are (I think) not squads. Many template attacks does not aim at units, but areas. So, can I deliberately fire at Tatamata with Frederwerk's flame cannon(or any artillery fire) while it's Gajin ability is active? If the situation is right, can I roll over attacks to a model with a similar ability like Gajin?

Can I counterfire to a model with similar ability when it makes it's first charge?

Can I choose to flee from an attacker that has this active -or similar- ability? Will the ability trigger and the unit will be targetable after this happens?

Can I counterattack, brace, anti-charge... and so on against it?

Tatamata can be in a squad while it's Gajin is active since he can be in a squad with any wanderer. How it works when this squad gets attacked at this time?

If I aim artillery fire at a squad, how the template must be placed? What if the template cannot be placed in a way to damage all units in the squad? Must I have to aim for the highest number of hits or -for example- can I aim to hit the exemplar in the squad even it that means most of the squad will not get affected?

Where the template must be placed when I counterfire with a template attack?

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Is artillery attack(like Frederwerk's flame cannon) has to be aimed at models/squads? The book mentions target squads, but in the same time it also says that fortifications can be attacked, which are (I think) not squads. Many template attacks does not aim at units, but areas. So, can I deliberately fire at Tatamata with Frederwerk's flame cannon(or any artillery fire) while it's Gajin ability is active? If the situation is right, can I roll over attacks to a model with a similar ability like Gajin?

Artillery is a weapon tag in the basic armory. All that Artillery means is that they ignore all AR except armor provided by Shields. It is also the only way to damage fortifications. Gotz's flame cannon is a template weapon, so you follow template rules in which you only deviate if you miss. The issue that is arising is that you cannot target Tamatama until he makes an attack, which is a part of either the ranged phase, or the melee phase (but not the charge phase). Since Tamatama only has a melee weapon, you cannot target him until after he swings in melee. I believe if Tamatama is your only valid and legal target for rolling over attacks (in a situation where you charge his squad first), then I believe you are able to do this. Alternatively, jumping back to the Flame Cannon, If you place the template down and it deviates on to Tamatama and would hit him, since you were not targeting him with an attack.

Can I counterfire to a model with similar ability when it makes it's first charge?

No, until Tamatama attacks, the only charge reactions you can take are Hold or Flee

Can I choose to flee from an attacker that has this active -or similar- ability? Will the ability trigger and the unit will be targetable after this happens?

He will only be a valid target if he gets to make a melee attack. If he charges, and you flee and he doesn't catch you, he will not be able to get an attack because he doesn't have a melee phase.

Tatamata can be in a squad while it's Gajin is active since he can be in a squad with any wanderer. How it works when this squad gets attacked at this time?

The Seven Wanderers don't need to be within 3 inches to be considered a squad, that's covered on page 172 where it says, "These Exemplars may each be taken separately, but they activate at the same time and independently. Activate each exemplar in sequence before turning play over to the other player." The problem is that unlike other exemplars that have a squad type they may attach themselves with, like Gotz. Gotz is an exemplar, and his Squad says Valkyr. That means that Gotz may only ever attach himself to squads of Valkyr. So all of the 7 Wanderers have that as their squad type, and may only ever "attach" themselves to other 7 wanderers. BUT because of the rule I quoted, they will never activate or be attached like a normal squad, since you activate them all at the same time, but do each model's actions individually, one right after the other. If Tamatama is your only 7 Wanderer on the board, then he will activate on his own, and do his own thing.

If I aim artillery fire at a squad, how the template must be placed? What if the template cannot be placed in a way to damage all units in the squad? Must I have to aim for the highest number of hits or -for example- can I aim to hit the exemplar in the squad even it that means most of the squad will not get affected?

You place a template within the range of the weapon and hopefully over some models, and then roll a single die per template to see if you hit all the models under the template. The defender then rolls 1 die per model per template (so if you have 3 models under 3 templates, each model would roll 3 dice against the 3 templates). and compares that to what you rolled. Should you miss all the models with a single template, that template then deviates based on the deviation conditions on page 34. If it would deviate such a small amount that the original models targeted would be caught again in the template, they don't have to roll WS again. Though I'm not sure why you would just want to catch the exemplar in the blast...

Where the template must be placed when I counterfire with a template attack?

Anywhere you could legally place a template normally. So using Gotz's profile as an example, if you're being charged with Gotz, as long as you place the template within 5 inches of him.

So I can't just fire into an empty area(or area with no valid targets) with an artillery attack? I have to target a model or a fortification?

My problem with counter-firing with a template weapon is if I counterfire after the enemy closed in I might have to shoot under my models(earlier someone said that counterfire goes off after the attacking models are placed in so a counterfire may never be out of range), while if I can shoot before the enemy models charge in I have more freedom to aim.

Yes, you have to target a model.

Yes, if you try to counterfire with a Template, you will hit your own model in most cases.

But..

Gotz & his Squad are immune to fire, and can soak his 1DE Flame Cannon attack.. and you're better off doing Counterattack rather then Counterfire.

Gophers can Flee and still throw their dynamite.

and the Trapper has other options to use for Counterfiring.

Then if a model is capable of some kind of flee and counterfire, it can do that against Tatamata on it's first charge?

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Then if a model is capable of some kind of flee and counterfire, it can do that against Tatamata on it's first charge?

Just the Gopher Engineer, who throws Dynamite at what made them Flee.

WhiteRoo, you're definitely not alone in your struggles. Often, the rules simply aren't fully explained, and what to do in certain situations isn't written down. I have high hopes this will be addressed in the near future by miskatonicalum, though .

Be wary of taking rule interpretations from anyone but him or Cyporiean. Often times, it is just a best guess from someone else, but from them you are getting it straight from the horse's mouth

Alf is on the OTLG writing team now, you can generally trust in him.

Then how it is decided if something is a fortification (things that I can aim artillery fire on) or not?

Only walls/gates/towers that are purchased by players (or otherwise named as destructible) are fortifications? If one quarter of the table is some kind of cover by default, that's a lot of things I cannot destroy.

Or everything that is not ground (walls that are not purchased, trees, houses) can be fired upon?