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Sorry if any of these were asked earlier, but I didn't yet have the time to read trough this topic.

About Fleeing:
If a model flees as a charge reaction or because of Fear, it has to flee away from the effect causing model. Does this has to be the exact 180° angle? Like it has to flee in the line formed by the two models, away from the model that causes it to flee?

What if the fleeing model(or models) bumps into a terrain it can't go trough, or into an enemy model(s) before it reaches it's maximum moving distance?

About "Can always make a charge reaction" abilities:
If a model is on b2b with an enemy model(so normally it can't make a charge reaction), and gets charged by a second enemy model, but can always make a charge reaction, can it make a charge reaction?

If one of my models have the Effigy of Defeated Foes(grants +3" charge range), and a friendly model wants ti charge an enemy model from 9 inches away, while the enemy model is at 14 inches away from the banner bearer model, is it possible to make the charge? In other words the charging model would leave the banner's range.

Following this up(the first charge can be made, but the charging model still ends up more than 10 inches away from the banner), if the charged model activates to make a flee and now the charging model can make a second charge, but can it charge up to 6" because this was it's charge range to begin with, or not?


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I'm planning to build some terrain pieces, so I checked the Fortifications section of the book, but it only states the size of the base (I think). So, a wall should be 2" x 6", but how high it should be? I guess it should be high enough to block Line of Sight for 50mm base models, which is minimum 3".

Does this wall has a top where the owner can put archers? How friendly models move up and down from this wall?

All of the structures are missing their 3rd dimensions.

Also, the base sizes of some siege machines are given in inches while just a line up the crew's base requirements are given in millimeters. I guess you can buy the bases this way, but it's just really weird for me(I'm from europe).


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How Squads are getting determined on the purposes of defense?

Many abilities are targeting squads, but squads are formed during activation, and can be formed completely differently in the next.

For example, a Warlord's Dishonor Guards can activate with the Warlord. A Kunoichi's Water Nmpo can target a squad. One turn I might activate the rats with the Warlord, others I might not. So they might be a squad or might not. When the Water Nimpo hits, how it gets determined if the Warlord and the rats that are around is, or is not belong to a squad?

Yes you fleet 180 away from the fear causing model. Fleeing models stop short if they run into terrain they cannot move through, or enemy models.

"Can Always make a charge reaction" is poorly worded. It means the model can make the charge reaction even if they have already activated this turn. They still cannot make a charge reaction if they are in b2b with an enemy model.

The Banner effect remains with you throughout the model's activation. If they started within the aura of the banner, they keep it until they finish their melee phase. They would also gain it if they moved into the aura during their activation.

Yes the wall should be high enough to block LoS for 50mm models...the purchased Walls are considered to simply block LoS for all models except those ON them, so yes, you can put ranged units on it (this is also what siege ladders are for, to get up and down)

The third dimension is abstract for all terrain pieces (Except for walls, expect to see that removed from it in the future) LoS blocking is based on horiziontal, total thickness of terrain, not upon vertical height of terrain. Essentially, all that matters is 'how much' stuff is between you and what you're shooting at.

Here in the US we dont really get bases in inches. The closest we have is the 25mm square which is damn near 1", but beyond that, all bases are in millimeter. We still use measuring tapes in Imperial, so the size of un-based terrain is also given in Imperial, as is the movement/charge range etc. Another way to simply look at the base requirements is, that you need at least 3 'small' based models to man a siege weapon, or at least 2 'medium+' based models. (I believe that covers most of them, i think some like the siege ram or ladder use a different number)

Hopefully this will clarify. Please keep the comments coming. We will make sure adjust anything that needs it for the next printing.

I found some typos and inconsistencies in the PDF. Where can I put them?

You can send it to matt at on-the-lamb.com or contact at.

Some more questions about charging...

If I want to maximize my charge range, can I do the next?

My model moves towards an enemy model as long as it can, ending up one inch from it, and declares charge against it. The enemy model activates to flee, and moves 4 inch away, making a 5 inch gap, then I make my first charge move, so the models are 2 inch apart. Now I can second-charge with 3", catching up to the enemy model.

Is this right? It would not work if I stop my model at 3 inch and make the first charge from there.

The Hamster Berserker's Northern Berserkers rule says:
"On a 3-8 move that distance in inches in
any direction as per normal movement. On a 9-10 move towards
the nearest enemy model, Immediately charge up to 10” into close
combat (if possible) and have +5 MT during the charge."

On a roll 9 or 10, they can move 9-10 inches then charge from there up to 10 inch? When they second-charge, can that be 10 inch again? (we are at 30" at this point, give it a banner and it's 36"). I guess it's supposed to be a 10" charge from where the Berserker was activated, because whit this they can outrun a mount and still not count rushed.

Also the Territorial rule is confusing. What if I activate my Berserkers as a squad? Do I roll after every one of them, and basically I can't activate them as a squad, but one after the other, without giving control to the other player?

Can you charge after you rushed? I think the book doesn't say you can't. Nor that you can.

The only answer I have is to your final question:

You can charge after rushing, just remember that you don't add your stats to the roll.

On technicality, the model flees after you finish the charge into B2B. so you're at 0 inches away, they fleet their speed of 4, and then you can charge your charge range again. So you would likely not reach them, unless they fled into movement reducing terrain (Charges ignore movement reduction, so you could catch them.) More likely what you would do is 'redirect' the charge into a different squad nearby. This charge redirection does not elicit a charge reaction from the second squad either.

The 9-10 result 10" charge is not the Berserker's normal charge range, so would not be used on a secondary charge when the target flees.

You roll Northern Berserkers for an entire squad not per model. The models within the squad to elicit the Northern Berserkers rule from each other (ie, you would roll if you activated a single hamster next to another, or if you activated them together.)

As Alf said, you can charge after a rush (unless a model's special rules state otherwise), Just remember that your MT will be 0 (+2 for charging) so you're less likely to hit.

Unless stated otherwise, in Brushfire, a model may use every phase stated (Tactical/Heroic Phase being the exception as most models do not have Tactical/Heroic Actions) A model may move, shoot, then charge.

miskatonicalum wrote:The 9-10 result 10" charge is not the Berserker's normal charge range, so would not be used on a secondary charge when the target flees.

miskatonicalum wrote:The Banner effect remains with you throughout the model's activation. If they started within the aura of the banner, they keep it until they finish their melee phase. They would also gain it if they moved into the aura during their activation.

I just want to check on those two rulings. Hamster Berserkers only get the boosted charge on the first use of it, but units affected by a Banner, who go out of its range, still get the bonus? Isn't that a bit counter-intuitive?

The special 10" charge is not a bonus to the Hamster's charge range, it makes them charge 10" flat. By that logic, If a model were to make a Cavalry Charge, and just a single model were to flee, they would get a doubled charge range (just going off a basic heavy cavalry speed 5, that'd be a 30" Cavalry Charge (10" Rush, 5" Charge, times two). Special Charges do not roll over to a model's Charge Redirect. I will clarify this in the next edition.

The Banner is providing a buff in an fix area, its not a huge range, and most models that would charge would move out of it's aura during their move phase, rendering the banner pointless.

Thanks for the clarification Matt.

But we just cleared that it does not matter if you leave a banner's area. If you started whitin it, the banner's effect stays until the end of the activation, so the second charge has a +3" range, even if the model left the banner's effect area whit it's movement.

That's cleared out some mist about the Northern Berserkers, but if you roll 9 or 10, can you move the Hamster that far and after that you can make a charge with 10" range? That's still makes the Hamster Berserker move 19-20", or with double-charge, 24-25". If they started under a banner, that's still 30-31".

So if I have two Hamster Berserkers and activate them as a squad, I have to roll for Northern Berserkers Will they attack eachother on 1 or 2, or will they both attack the closest unit?



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How Squads are getting determined on the purposes of defense?

Many abilities are targeting squads, but squads are formed during activation, and can be formed completely differently in the next.

For example, a Warlord's Dishonor Guards can activate with the Warlord. A Kunoichi's Water Nmpo can target a squad. One turn I might activate the rats with the Warlord, others I might not. So they might be a squad or might not. When the Water Nimpo hits, how it gets determined if the Warlord and the rats that are around is, or is not belong to a squad?

The Northern Berserkers charge is a fixed charge, just as Charge Redirects do not benefit from it, It would not benefit from any Charge bonuses. So Move their Speed (not 9 or 10 inches, they simply move, and then Charge 10" for a threat range of 15" (+3" if the target flees)



With Northern Berserkers, they could attack each other.



Squad Targeting all depends on how they were activated last. If the Dishonor guards last activated in a squad with the Warlord, they would all be subject to Water Ninpo.

As you have yet to activate any models at deployment, you declare how they are squad'ed up during deployment.

Thanks for the answers! You guys are really helpful!

I got some more...

If a model with "Can always make a charge reaction of..." is not yet activated, but being charged, do making the charge reaction of it's ability makes that model count activated?

If not, Can it make it's ability's charge reaction and activate for a second reaction? Like Otter ashigarus with guns can make a stand and shoot then activate to flee?

Is charging targets a squad, or is it targets individual models? For example if I activated my Warlord in the previous turn with it's Dishonor Guards, now they are a squad. If they are being charged(and they are not activated this turn), can I choose the Brace reaction if one(or two or some) of the Rat Raiders have a Targe(Held Shield)?

Shields and Held Shields are not the same, right? It's confusing because Held Shields allow the Brace charge reaction, while the Pavise being the only non-held shield does give bonus against charging. A Valkyr does not have Held Shield, just Shield so it cannot Brace, right?

Pistols can be used in melee combat, but they are count as melee weapons in that situation? Or for example a Shrew Hussar activating in B2B can have a ranged phase, even if it is in B2B, effectively making 3 attacks(and one more with the mount)?

Does the +2 MT charge bonus stacks with the Horn of the Shattered Claymore's +3 MT? Based on the horn's description it doesn't, but then which one will be used?

Have the Formations got removed?

What is Soft and Hard Cover?


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I have read trough this thread and run into the situation with the Mouse Lancers charging from so far away the Shrew hussars couldn't fire back, because they where out of range. Funny story.

I had a question about charging and getting a flee reaction earlier where it turned out, the chargers move to b2b, then the defenders flee from there, and finally the chargers may second-charge.

The point is, Flee happens after b2b contact have been made while counterfire happens before the attackers move to b2b?

Then what happens with the Shrew hussars? They flee and counterfire. They counterfire before the charge move is made, and flee after the chargers moved in b2b?


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This is also not stated in one way or the other, but does having pike and shield equipped make the shield have reach attack?

As it currently works, making a 'free' charge reaction is only free if you've already activated, otherwise it counts as activating.

Even if we change it in the future, no, that wouldn't let you make two charge reactions.

When a squad is charged, you can choose to activate any number of them to make charge reactions, but they must all make the same charge reaction.

A Pavise is a standing shield, you stick it in the ground in front of you to protect you from ranged fire. Pavises do not count in Melee, but do in the initial charge (before your attackers are 'on the other side' of the shield) so they cannot be used to Brace or make an additional attack like Held Shields.

The distinction of calling things like the armor of a Valkyr 'shield' armor is to state that it counts against Artillery, or attacks that ignore body armor (armor that is not shield armor)

Yes in melee Pistols count as melee weapons, you roll MT instead of GE in the melee phase. They cannot be used to shoot out of close combat during the Ranged Phase.

The Horns do not stack with additional horns (you couldnt buy 3 horns, use them all at once, to get +9 MT) but they do stack with other bonuses.

Yes, formations were removed.

There should not be anything that refers to soft or hard cover. It may be a typo on my part, refering to 'fortifcations', as hard cover, terrain pieces that can be damaged by artillery.

Counterfire occurs after the Charge Move is completed. You will always be in range for making your Counterfire.


Edit to Answer Appended Post: Only the Pike would have Reach, you would be unable to make shield attacks (or any other non-reach attacks) through intervening models.

So if my Rat Raiders get charged and I call Brace as a reaction, it will only going to have effect on the models that are equipped with Held Shields?

Do a squad has to have line of sight on the target squad to be able to declare a charge against it?

 WhiteRoo wrote:
So if my Rat Raiders get charged and I call Brace as a reaction, it will only going to have effect on the models that are equipped with Held Shields?

Do a squad has to have line of sight on the target squad to be able to declare a charge against it?

Yes you do, otherwise you could Kool-Aid Man your way through a wall. While Charge movements ignore movement penalties from terrain, you still need to be able to draw line of sight.

It came up in my mind because of the Mouse Lancers. 25" is plenty to go around some walls and charge someone whitout having line of sight. I'm glad they can't.

Just remember though, that a single model needs line of sight to make the 25 inch striking leap. So the squad can move in such a way that a single model can draw LoS, then you move the squad 25 inches ignoring terrain (since you ignore movement penalties due to terrain) and get all nice and snug in b2b.

I'm still confused about the squad system. So when it's your move, you choose a group of models that are allowed to be in a squad to activate. Just one model can form a squad. These models will be considered to be in a squad until when exactly?

Because charging targets a squad, but only the models are considered charged that are end up in b2b, and that squad does not have to react as... a squad, because as a charge reaction I can now activate any number of them, ignoring their... squad-ness(?) So If I have two models that where in one squad and now are both in b2b with the enemy, I can choose to activate just one of them to react. Right?

Then what if I do this:
I activate a group of models as a squad and in the next turn, I activate just one of them and leave the rest for later. I don't even move this model, just shoot or something. So, the squad status of this group of models are now quite confusing.

After this, the opponent decides to charge this group of models. I guess all the models are allowed to be charged, even so they are obliviously not in one squad, Now the charge targets at least two squads.

Sqauds doesn't have to keep theyself separated. Two models that cannot even be in a squad are allowed to be right next to eachother, but if charging targets a squad, the opponent may be not allowed to move it's models b2b with both of them and obliviously not allowed to direct attacks against both of them, since only one of them is charged and that would be off-target. That seems wrong.

But if in this situation, the opponent is allowed to charge both models, then I should be allowed to activate both of them to react. but they cannot be in a squad, so I should activate them as separate squads, even choosing different charge reactions to them. And that is not allowed, right?

This situation might be rare, but I bet I can use it if I want for some crazy-cheezy tactic.

Okay, so say I have 5 Weasel Fusiliers. On turn 2, I activate 1 of the Weasels, say the one out front. He stands where he is, and shoots. Until the following turn when both he and the other 4 weasels are able to activate, they are considered separate squads, since you cannot join a squad if you've activated. So after my lone Fusilier fires, I give the activation over to you, and you activate a squad of 3 mouse conscripts, you move and charge into that blob of weasels, but you only have the movement to get into combat with that lone weasel that activated already. Since he activated, I wouldn't be able to get a charge reaction (as a charge reaction uses up your activation). and we'd move into the melee phase as normal.

If you had enough movement to get into melee with both squads, the lone weasel wouldn't get a charge reaction, but the other 4 would. Then when you enter the melee phase, you can only attack models that you are in b2b with.

Exactly, and I just charged two squads with one charge.

The point is, what if I have the movement to make all the b2b I want, and maybe I even willing to despite the counterfire or other reactions. I just directed my charge against two or more squads. Is that legal?

Can I arrange my charging Conscripts in a way that one of the Conscripts are in base contact with one Fusilier from both Fusiliers squads(quite possible), and let's suppose my conscript can attack twice, can I target the one unactivated, and one from the activated weasels?

You must prioritize your attacks against the model/squad that you declared the charge against, but if you have models in base to base with both squads or the squad you didn't charge, attacks can roll over on to the other squad if the charging model is no longer in b2b with the model/squad they declared the charge against.

If you charge the activated squad, and wind up in b2b with the non-activated squad, you wouldn't get any charge reactions against you as the activated squad is unable to make a charge reaction, and the non-activated squad wasn't the target of the charge.

You can charge more than one squad, with one particular caveat. Your models must end up in B2B with at least one model of the target squad.


I also think you're thinking this strategy is more effective than it really is. Attacks from a model can only be directed against models the attacker is in B2B with. If you activate one model by itself, and the chargers are unable to get into B2B with the other models that WERE in the same squad, thats changing nothing. If you activate them all together, the chargers are still only able to get into B2B with one model, in either case, the attacks apply to this model only.

What you're really doing by activating models individually is hurting yourself, Your attacks are not stacking to exceed a target's armor, it is more effective for you to have those 5 weasels all attack at the same time, instead of wasting attacks from 1 weasel just to 'defend' your squad from charges.

Your secondary squad would also not get charge reactions in this split squad setup, only the declared target gets a charge reaction.

How good a strategy is this is not my point here. what I'm trying to learn is how does this work?

I'm suspecting some weird logic here, and I'm asking this because at my point of view, this can be an error in the rules. If I'm getting annoying, I will stop, just say the word.

If in this situation - as I currently understand - if I'm on the charging side, I just won a free charge! I target the lone, already activated model, and get into b2b with the ones around it while they can't react since they are not targeted by the original charge. I declare all my attacks to the one who can't answer because it was already activated and if when it went down, I roll over the rest of the attacks to the others around it and they also can't answer because they weren't got charged. It's even cheesier if the chargers have pikes!

Yes that is how it works.

I see it as encouraging players to be aware of the position of their models, and consider when the best time to activate a model or squad is.

Much of the design ethic is to simplify and streamline game play. If we did not have it work this way, then simply by ending your charge in B2B with another squad, the defenders could easily make twice as many charge reactions as you. With ranged weapons on most models, Melee becomes quickly suicidal, Counterfire from twice as many models (or more if the squads are horde vs a regular or elite charging squad) will easily cut down even heavily armored units. Or what about heroes or lone exemplars? 1 model versus a single horde unit is tough enough, but 30 models? Melee would become a pointless massacre, instead of a squad getting an extra shot or so in.

Also note that even though these defenders would not get a charge reaction, they still get an activation. They can respond with melee attacks or step away and make ranged attacks at another squad.

Ah, so it's a feature, not a bug.

You really should mention this in the rulebook. I'm glad I didn't had to have an argument about this over the table.

As an idea, I think a single model based charge reaction would be more fair and simple, since the squads are hard to follow, but like this I can see it work now.

Thanks!

I don't think you'll have too much trouble distinguishing the various squads for a few reasons.

1) There are very few mixed squads in the game, if you're not running one of those squads, then no need to worry about it.
2) When you split a squad, it's generally so you can position yourself and fire at 2 targets, usually this means you'll be moving the first squad away from the second squad and you'll have two squads outside of 3 inch cohesion with each other
3) If you plan on splitting a squad and then not moving that squad, you could always put a little marker down to let you know.

Otherwise, it's up to you as the player to remember which models are in the squad. And technically charge reactions are given to the squad being charged, but it is a model by model basis to determine which model is electing to take the charge reaction, so if your 3 mice charge my 5 weasels (as a single unit), I can elect 3 of those weasels to take a charge reaction, which then splits them into a squad separately from the other two. Who will then get their activation as normal.

Edit: Remember, any model that elects to take a charge reaction must take the same reaction as the rest of his squad.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
You really should mention this in the rulebook. I'm glad I didn't had to have an argument about this over the table.

A thousand times this! I love this game, but if it's ever going to take off, the explanations (which take pages here because of the brevity in the rulebook) need to be expanded with more text and diagrams in the rulebook itself.

I don't know where I supposed to put this, so I'll put it here.


I was teaching some players to Brushfire in the other day and I would like to share how it went, and what where the main problems. I had made them read the 1.2 rulebook first, then we started with the army building.

One guy choosed the Scyzantine Empire, and he was equipping his Veiled Assasins when we run into this: The Veiled assasin starts with light armor, a crossbow and a dagger, and can be upgraded with a pistol and a 2nd dagger. I know that buying the pistol makes the crossbow redundant and removes it from the unit's equipment list(I actually know this from a Q&A from somewhere), but it was really hard to explain. Crossbows are one handed, their removal would cost it's always counterfire ability, the pistol is also one handed, can be dual-wielded and it does not have any better damage. In short, the upgrade lines are hard to follow. It would be nice if an upgrade would also say what does it make redundant. ilke "Crossbow -> Pistol, Dagger -> Dual Daggers".

The oher bing thing where are the definitions.
To learn what an unit can really capable of, one must start in the unit's character page and find all the mentionned definitions one by one. I don't have problem associating an ability with it's name as long as the ability's name is descriptive enough (this is what MTG does, and I'm fine with it), but Brushfire definitions are often branch out like a tree, and they are hiding numbers in the lower branches.
For example if a unit is Light Cavalry, it means that "this model retains 2 WS when rushing, it has 5" charge range instead of the normal charge range, it retains it's full GE while rushing and can perform Rushing Fire.
This definition hides two numbers, in four abilities that has not much to do with each othert and one of them is a name of an another ability(even if it is right on that page where Cavarlry is described). After three or four reads, I keep forgetting what my Shrew Hussar can do.
This get's worse with the weapons. A weapon is one to three numbers we should remember and know which is which, and sometimes one or two ability. We keep mixing up the shields after five games.

We often fight the rulebook instead the other army. It would help a lot if a unit's decription would show more from that unit. Especially the numbers.

Also, some more questions:

Can you decrease an ability to be negative? Crossbow losts -2 GE when you counterfire after activation, but after rushing, the model might start from 0 GE. Can using the crossbow bring this down to -2 GE?

The Shrew Hussar has dual pistols and a sword, what can he attack with in meele? I guess it must be a sword attack and a pistol attack.

If an unit can perform Rushing Fire, can it perform "walking" fire? I mean I only move it at it's normal speed but I still interrupt it's movement with it's ranged phase and keep it's stats because it haven't rushed.

Glad you're teaching the game! Just a few suggestions though, in any wargame you probably don't want to start a player off with things like army building and upgrades/customization. The first few games should be them getting used to the game itself. With that said, you're welcome to try and teach it how you want .

When it comes to upgrading models, a model in a squad may take any and all upgrades that are available for it. It's up to the player to decide how they want to use that equipment when making attacks. Though in cases like armor, I'm not sure when you'd want to "choose" to take the lighter armor you have lol. So your Veiled Assassin could take it's standard equipment in addition to the equipment that it has available to it under upgrades. So your Assassins could technically be equipped with 2 daggers, a pistol, and a crossbow. Though I believe there is some limit on this... I can't seem to find it in my pre-coffee state.

I'm a little confused about your issue with the definitions, everything you need for Cavalry are all listed on page 23 in rulebook 1.2 under Cavalry, so you read Cavalry, you get that you retain +2 Wits when rushing, you get a 5" charge instead of 3, and that all cav will be 1 of 2 types either light or heavy, which describes what they will be. When you talk about numbers, are you referring to the stats that they retain when they rush? Because it should say it right on your stat card, and any sort of "searching" for information is just a lack of experience with the game itself more than anything. I think the weapon thing is a similar symptom, A weapon does DE, it is generally 1HD or 2HD, and it might occasionally have AP or a range in inches on it. Even if you're coming from 40k, AP should be the easiest to remember, and it'll be just something you pick up as you play. But I guess I'm confused when you say,

WhiteRoo wrote:We often fight the rulebook instead of the other army. It would help a lot if a unit's description would show more from that unit. Especially the Numbers.

Are you saying, using a Valkyr as an example, that when looking at it's equipment it should look a little something like this:
Standard Equipment:
Greatsword - 4 DE, 2HD
Ironskin - 4 AR, Shield
Crossbow - 2 DE, 1 HD, 20" Range, Heavy Bolt

Instead of something like this:
Standard Equipment: - Greatsword, Ironskin, Crossbow

If that's the case, I could see where you're coming from, but at the same time, all of that information is provided on the stat cards which are provided with the model(s).

Also, some more answers:
Yes you can decrease a stat to be negative, there's nothing saying in the rulebook that they can't be reduced below 0.

Like I said above, your Shrew Hussar's attacks in melee are up to you, if you want to use both pistols in melee, you're totally allowed to. A good example of this is the Fox Shinobi has the standard equipment of 2 daggers (two 1 HD weapons), and can upgrade to get a Kusarigama (2 Hd weapon). When making melee attacks, the Fox Shinobi's player must decide which weapons he is using for his attack set.

And no, a unit cannot perform a "walking" fire, because the ability specifically states that it uses it's Rush Speed.