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 DarthMarko wrote:

Aqvila Invictis wrote:
My personal fluff mods:

1. Dune (and possibly Fallout) are in-continuity with 40k.

2. Squats were (mostly) wiped out by the Tyranids but they still exist in small numbers. This was the first recon by GW, the second (bad, IMO) recon was to memory hole them entirely.

3. Orks have green blood, damnit.

I just wanted to say "Dune" is 40k x 100 in depth and sf terms IMHO...
I'm glad there are more fans who like me see the connection....

You say "Connection" I say "wholesale pillaging" eh, what's the difference? (Not that Dune was particularly original, mind you). I'm not even a Dune fan, I just can recognize looting when I see it.

I don't see Pius as actually harming Horus. He doesn't give the Emperor an opening by catching Horus off guard. He simply stands between the Emperor and Horus, defiantly holding his ground until Horus casually snuffs his life out.

It is this small act of defiance that gives the Emperor his resolve to finally defeat Horus, not because a lasgun shot managed to pierce a vital servomotor.

I'd just prefer Pius not be a melon-fething Highlander.

Aqvila Invictis wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Aqvila Invictis wrote:
My personal fluff mods:

1. Dune (and possibly Fallout) are in-continuity with 40k.

2. Squats were (mostly) wiped out by the Tyranids but they still exist in small numbers. This was the first recon by GW, the second (bad, IMO) recon was to memory hole them entirely.

3. Orks have green blood, damnit.

I just wanted to say "Dune" is 40k x 100 in depth and sf terms IMHO...
I'm glad there are more fans who like me see the connection....

You say "Connection" I say "wholesale pillaging" eh, what's the difference? (Not that Dune was particularly original, mind you). I'm not even a Dune fan, I just can recognize looting when I see it.

Sorry - connection = looting :-) and I agree

Also chink in the armor was from Angel boy...

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Ollanius Pius was not an ageless buddy of the Emperor, but just a man who was in the right place at the right time. His sacrifice showed that no matter how small a life, humanity was worth fighting for, giving Empy the resolve to defeat Horus.

Or you could say he was "in the wrong place, at the wrong time "

Or it could be both. "The Right Man in the Wrong Place can make all the difference in the world. Now, wake up, Mister Pius. Wake up and, smell the ashes."

Nice reference.

 Just Dave wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Ollanius Pius was not an ageless buddy of the Emperor, but just a man who was in the right place at the right time. His sacrifice showed that no matter how small a life, humanity was worth fighting for, giving Empy the resolve to defeat Horus.

Or you could say he was "in the wrong place, at the wrong time "

Or it could be both. "The Right Man in the Wrong Place can make all the difference in the world. Now, wake up, Mister Pius. Wake up and, smell the ashes."

Nice reference.

Best part is that it works. If Pius hadn't stepped up and given The Emperor the time he needed to defeat Horus, Chaos might have imploded, saving the galaxy.

(with wanderers fluff) (All of this is according to what has happened as I don't like a stagant gaxaly personally)
The Year is 42M
The Imperium is in chaos.
The ghoul stars remain somehow.
The Time of ending is past.... but the Galaxy is still in chaos.
(using wanderer fluff time of ending )
Whats going on in the gaxaly
-Primarchs Returned
-Emperor is dead.
-Black Crusade has broken through cadia,
-Chaos Primarchs doing stuff destroying imperial worlds and eldar alike
-Eldrad was retrieved and placed within a wraithseer. Leading his people into a great life.
-Lucius the Eternal is killed for the last time, as Slaanesh finally tires of his deaths and swallows Lucius's soul permanently, Slaanesh finding a new champion to call.
-Thousand Sons return back to grace
-Read Death of the Emperor by Dark Lord Seanron basically this, minus what happens to the blood angels bit
-Blood Angels and many of their successors succumb to the black rage.
-Cypher makes his way to the emperor's throne unnoticed and is redeemed alone with all the fallen.
-Grey Knights have 3,000 Astartes. Not 1,000 according to the codex due to how large, and how big the threat of daemons is.
-Not all Ultramarines are idiots and fools. Captain titus returns after the death of Captain Scarius in the 2nd Tyranic Wars. Titus takes back his place as company captain.
-The Space Wolves (Dark lord Seanrons)
-Space Marines make use of camo, and do not stand in the open and march in glory. They are in fact soldiers, not warriors.
-Grey Knights and the Inqusition cannot exterminatus an entire planet filled with billions of lives or even millions of lives.
-Squats don't exist, only dwarves do
-The Astartes rule worlds with a large pdf and nephoyte defense force.
-The C'tan Outsider no-longer exists, having devoured himself.
-There are two empires of Necrons, those that retain their ancient heritage, and those that are slaves to their old masters will. They constantly war upon each other.
-The Ghoul Stars are rife with alien races beyond the reckoning of the Imperium
-the Cythor Fiends live still.....
-The Space Wolves have 3000 Astartes in their chapter.
-The Blood Ravens Victory at Aurellia (Angelos is the Chapter Master)
-The Third War for Armaggedon has ended, with Armaggedon being completely destroyed the Orks at Armaggedon are defeated, Gazghul Thrakka is killed.
-A new Warboss is created.... Simply known as The Warlord he unites the largest Ork Wagh! in Galactic History.
-The Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons. Magnus rejoices and rejoins the Imperium... How the Inqusition is able to accept him back... is unknown.
-A new religion arises....
-Alpha Legion loyalist section returns having destroyed their traitor elements.
-The Marines Malevolent along with 12 chapters turn traitor.
-Cadia is saved.
-The Entire Storm Crusaders chapter is wiped out, the Astartes battling the New Tyranid Hive Fleet. use their mighty fleet and destroy themselves in the ensuing battle destroying the largest hive fleet to enter the gaxaly.
Garane of the Storm Crusaders and 15 others are the only survivors, he believes still there are remainders of the chapter alive.
-Iron Hands join the fray against the black crusade.
-Chaos Gods relinquish themselves from the universe seeing their victory at the death of the emperor.
-More to Be added-

-Wanderers find the last of their Lost-
The brotherhood of the ghoul stars still reeling from the destruction of the new tyranid hive fleet and the sacrifices it made during the war, must fight from all sides. The Brotherhood has lost hope as no aide has arrived to their systems. An emergency draft is started,
Storm Crusader ships are found drifting with geneseed, and two surviving company is found. Tyrion and his Crusading Company and his reserve company. Tyrion sees himself as the last of his chapter command is given position over the chapter.
Tyrion finds Garane and, gives Garane title of Grand Templar. The Chapter begins rebuilding but fighting on.
The Emperor's Scythes Chapter emerge in the ultramar system fighting on.
The Crimson fists are rebuilt and begin the purging of the surrounding systems
The Dark Eldar are destroyed
Iyanden is Sacrificed, in a war with the tau.
The Remainder of Iyanden join the Beli-Tan
Lamenters reappear and good luck seems to finally bloom upon them. They find their geneseed untouched by their guardians. Returning from their pentience.
The Dark Angels, find themselves absolved of their sins as their Primarch returns. He grants eternal peace to his mentor and former friend Luther.
The Dark Angels swiftly begin reforming their successor chapters back into a unified legion to combat the black crusade under Abaddon
The Wanderers and five other chapters are the only missing successors of the dark angels that do not come to the call of their Primarch. Much to the Dismay of the Arch Angel Council, Lion El' Johnson tells them to hold steadfast in their attempts to hold the north, for one day the will be reniforced.
Five weeks later Beriel the Virtue Prince along with a Raven Guard Captain discover Corax's ship and the Primarch who had been slumbering for the past 10 millennia. Corax engages Beriel and almost kills him, but sees the markings of the Dark Angels upon him seeing him as an ally, his sons have found their primarch.
Angron begins his conquest throughout Ultimia Segmunetum he sees his newest prize. The Blood Angels homeworld, Baal is besieged.
-Current Date is M43.003

Sorry I couldn't help it.

 mattyrm wrote:

Maybe something Native American (Indian) would be cool and pretty original though, are there any chapters that have been made along those lines? I saw one guys homebrew chapter here on dakka come to mention it.

I think the Deathwing were originally, weren't they?

The Alpha Legion's plan in Dawn of War was to use Azariah Kyras and the Maledictum Daemon to create a new Warmaster of Chaos to supplant Abaddon, banking on Eliphas the Inheritor's backstabbing ambition as a contingency plan. If Kyras succeeded in sacrificing Aurelia to Khorne, the Alpha Legion suddenly has their new Champion. If Eliphas defeated Kyras, he would take the Ascendant's place.

Either Eliphas or Kyras would then be used to rally the traitor legions under a new banner, kick out Abaddon for his repeated failures to topple the Imperium, and launch a massive invasion against the Imperium under new leadership.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
The Alpha Legion's plan in Dawn of War was to use Azariah Kyras and the Maledictum Daemon to create a new Warmaster of Chaos to supplant Abaddon, banking on Eliphas the Inheritor's backstabbing ambition as a contingency plan. If Kyras succeeded in sacrificing Aurelia to Khorne, the Alpha Legion suddenly has their new Champion. If Eliphas defeated Kyras, he would take the Ascendant's place.

Either Eliphas or Kyras would then be used to rally the traitor legions under a new banner, kick out Abaddon for his repeated failures to topple the Imperium, and launch a massive invasion against the Imperium under new leadership.

I would change it to say, And then Little Horus Appeared.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Ollanius Pius was not an ageless buddy of the Emperor, but just a man who was in the right place at the right time. His sacrifice showed that no matter how small a life, humanity was worth fighting for, giving Empy the resolve to defeat Horus.

Or you could say he was "in the wrong place, at the wrong time "

Or it could be both. "The Right Man in the Wrong Place can make all the difference in the world. Now, wake up, Mister Pius. Wake up and, smell the ashes."

 DarthMarko wrote:


I just wanted to say "Dune" is 40k x 100 in depth and sf terms IMHO...

Imho, they can't be compared. 40k is all about looks and style, and Dune is about substance. Something like Tarantino vs. Tarkovsky...

I prefer not to have "personal retcons", but if I did have one, I would retcon the Horus Heresy in to an ancient, barely-understood and barely remembered part of Imperial history, more legend than actual fact, instead of something that apparently needs five thousand books to describe it so that maybe BL would be more inclined to write books that aren't about which space marine is more space marine than the other space marines.

 Melissia wrote:
I prefer not to have "personal retcons", but if I did have one, I would retcon the Horus Heresy in to an ancient, barely-understood and barely remembered part of Imperial history, more legend than actual fact, instead of something that apparently needs five thousand books to describe it so that maybe BL would be more inclined to write books that aren't about which space marine is more space marine than the other space marines.

I like you...+

Most of the HH has become pure up Space Marine porn

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Most of the HH has become pure up Space Marine porn

Give the Guardsmen some love. :B

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Most of 40k has become pure up Space Marine porn

Fixed that for you.

The HH is particularly guilty of it, as it simply doesn't discuss anything else, beyond a few side characters (who, amusingly, are more interesting than most of the Marine/Primarch cast).

At least your rank and file bolter porn will nominally recognize non-marines exist, mainly as targets, but they're still there.

I stand corrected.

My major ones are:

- I don't read Black Library stuff, so anything in there is largely non-canon in my personal 40k-verse. I only deal with stuff printed in rule books.
- The Tale of Two-heads Talking is not actually an allegory. It happens to match up well with the tale of the civil war between the Lion's legion and Calibanites, but it is still the actual reason the suits of armour are white and not black. The Inner Circle simply likes telling it as they know the initiates will hear many lies throughout their stay as a Dark Angel. So the first story they tell them may as well be the truth (of course this means that my head-canon DA have a lot in common with the Salamanders in terms of how they view their various homeworlds). I just think it is a shame to make it allegorical because it is still my favourite bit of fluff after all these years.

Other than that I take to most of it pretty easily.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
My major ones are:
- I don't read Black Library stuff, so anything in there is largely non-canon in my personal 40k-verse. I only deal with stuff printed in rule books.
.

How do you manage to do that ?
Tell me the recipe, please...

All you need to do is ignore the BL stuff. I do that myself for the most part.

There is some good BL stuff out there, the key is to avoid SPEHSS MEHRINES and a few...choice authors, and by and large they're not bad.

Frankly, if they'd just stop obsessing over marines, some of these authors with some skill might write more interesting novels. I think it's a misconception that marine bolter porn will sell well, as to date, the most popular series remains Gaunt's Ghosts and the original Eisenhorn trilogy.

Marines make boring characters, end of story.

You either make the Marines human, in which case you piss off the people who see them as post human and intentionally alien, or you play them entirely straight and end up with blank killing machine's whose only emotions are anger and DULL SURPRISE.

And if you are making humanized marines, you might as well just use Guardsmen or another branch of the Imperium.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
You either make the Marines human, in which case you piss off the people who see them as post human and intentionally alien, or you play them entirely straight and end up with blank killing machine's whose only emotions are anger and DULL SURPRISE.

And if you are making humanized marines, you might as well just use Guardsmen or another branch of the Imperium.

Yes, that's pretty much my problem with them in literature as well.

At least Sisters are humans with actual emotions, even if they are in a culture that is quite alien to our own.

Personally, I see a lot of similarities between the Marines and the Sisters - even extending into their psychological profile. They're both heavily indoctrinated and spend their entire life either fighting or preparing to fight, with various weird rituals in-between. And they are both "emotionally scarred" by their environment, much like child soldiers or war veterans, having sacrificed part of their very humanity in the pursuit of their duties.

It is possible to write "good" Sisters as well as good Marines just like it is possible to write convincing aliens who are also interesting. It just seems to be something that very few writers can do. *coughMitchellcough*

For what it's worth, I'm experiencing the same with those Feudal Japanese Kuritans in Battletech novels.

Most readers are able to understand and enjoy the exotic facets of a drastically different culture, but few could truly immerse themselves into it without letting it look awkward. I'm assuming it also has to do with all of us being so marked by our own culture that it's difficult to "cut loose" and understand not only what such an exotic character would do, but also why. I don't think a lot of writers actually study stuff like monastic life or Japanese culture before writing their novels, rather just going ahead with the clichés they can come up with at the moment and biased by what they themselves think would be cool. The end result looks accordingly.

The "Space Marines are alien In mindset and impossible to characterize in a human fashion" argument falls flat when the studio's own fluff does not portray them as that way.

Different, with altering values to our own? Sure. Inhuman? No.

Plus, I've read a few short stories where the writer managed to do alright. I' mentioned that before, but Captain Tycho's last fight on Armageddon was the best one so far.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The "Space Marines are alien In mindset and impossible to characterize in a human fashion" argument falls flat when the studio's own fluff does not portray them as that way.

Different, with altering values to our own? Sure. Inhuman? No.

I'm more talking about when their ideals and methods come across as more like Guardsmen in super suits than actual posthumans.Like the Ultramarines movie, where they talk and act like confused neophytes who've never been in any combat EVER, rather than the survivors of years in the Scout Company.

Didn't that movie suck ass?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Inhuman?

Yes.

Space Marines are not human. They gave that up to become Space Marines.

But we're probably not ever going to agree on this, so let's try to stay on topic.