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Is there an option for 'all of the above' or 'most of the above'?

I enjoyed Horus prior to his fall to Chaos and like Roboute, but most of the rest of the Primarchs are numptys. Corax is okay, until he goes all emo, and Vulkan at least wants to defend humanity, but at the end of the day most of them are whinny cry babies looking for self aggrandizement.

Who votes Alpharius/Omegon? Come on what do they do that's annoying ?

BaconUprising wrote:
Who votes Alpharius/Omegon? Come on what do they do that's annoying ?

Nothing's more annoying then trying to mail a letter of complaint to a non-existent address.

How come Sanguinius is tied for the 4th most hated primarch ?
i voted for Russ.. for pretty much every reason that other people have said for hating him

BaconUprising wrote:
Who votes Alpharius/Omegon? Come on what do they do that's annoying ?

I think a fair amount of people think the whole Alpharius/Omegon twin primarch nonsense is pretty silly. Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

Problem is that I don't know what we're supposed to base this on.

Bottom line is that it comes down to a tie, depending.

If we are supposed to take their signature works (fluff works in which they are the prime players) then Fulgrim is hands down my pick for daffiest, least enjoyable character. If we're meant to take all of the Black Library/40k materials into account, understanding that one or two of the novels might be the work not of a flawed character but a flawed author, then I would have to say that Magnus is the worst, his entire backstory being predicated on a rather goofy premise. Previously, I would have said that Lorgar's premise was even goofier than Magnus's, but I'm suspending that judgment until I get a chance to read ADB's The First Heretic.

The Lion, he was such a disappointment in the HH books, always liked the DA but so far the books have kinna ruined him. Unremembered empire brought him back slightly but only ever so.

Am surprised about the Russ hate!

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

This is probably it.

A lot of people love Legion, but uh, well, yeah and gak.


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 Jimsolo wrote:
Problem is that I don't know what we're supposed to base this on.

Bottom line is that it comes down to a tie, depending.

If we are supposed to take their signature works (fluff works in which they are the prime players) then Fulgrim is hands down my pick for daffiest, least enjoyable character. If we're meant to take all of the Black Library/40k materials into account, understanding that one or two of the novels might be the work not of a flawed character but a flawed author, then I would have to say that Magnus is the worst, his entire backstory being predicated on a rather goofy premise. Previously, I would have said that Lorgar's premise was even goofier than Magnus's, but I'm suspending that judgment until I get a chance to read ADB's The First Heretic.

While I have no doubts at all that I will disagree with your assessment (I usually do) I have to ask, what do you dislike about Magnus' backstory's premise?


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Knockagh wrote:
The Lion, he was such a disappointment in the HH books, always liked the DA but so far the books have kinna ruined him. Unremembered empire brought him back slightly but only ever so.

Am surprised about the Russ hate!

The Lion was one of the few good things about the first two DA books.

People dislike Russ because he's a busy-body.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
think a fair amount of people think the whole Alpharius/Omegon twin primarch nonsense is pretty silly. Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

I agree with the fact that their fluff is written poorly, I absolutely love the way those two go into battle and all the sneaky tactics they do, it's brilliant to see how they as Primarchs don't just assault a planet all guns blazing and destroy everything in sight saying "daddy told me to" or "I've got a big axe let's hack 'n' slash people". They infiltrate and gain knowledge about the planet and it's populace before hand. Wasn't there some fluff going around to saying how they once captured a planet without even stepping foot or sending a single astartes down, they just used their usual sneaky tactics and within a month the planet was theirs haha. It's a welcome change.

Plus Horus and Roboute openly criticized them for their tactics, ones long dead and the other is sitting in a stasis with his neck sliced open high on the poison that covered said neck opening blade, so whose a smarter primarch now aye

Guilliman. Despite his Legion/Chapter's noted inability to give up on a situation and instead find a way to win...he gave up when the Empire needed him the most. When the cards are down, he came with a 2-7 offsuit and was bluffing his way through.

I'd have to go with Khan, I'm not feeling the whole mongol look and there just isn't enough information about him.

 tomball0706 wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
think a fair amount of people think the whole Alpharius/Omegon twin primarch nonsense is pretty silly. Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

I agree with the fact that their fluff is written poorly, I absolutely love the way those two go into battle and all the sneaky tactics they do, it's brilliant to see how they as Primarchs don't just assault a planet all guns blazing and destroy everything in sight saying "daddy told me to" or "I've got a big axe let's hack 'n' slash people". They infiltrate and gain knowledge about the planet and it's populace before hand. Wasn't there some fluff going around to saying how they once captured a planet without even stepping foot or sending a single astartes down, they just used their usual sneaky tactics and within a month the planet was theirs haha. It's a welcome change.

The thing was, and I played Alpha Legion in the long long ago of 2nd Edition, the Alpha Legion didn't start fighting like that until after the Heresy, and it was because they had to. Suddenly, they were renegades; hunted traitors. Going to ground and fighting a guerrilla war was how they adapted to keep from being destroyed by the Imperium. The original fluff for the Alpha Legion had them being arrogant bastards who constantly looked for new ways to defeat their enemies. They weren't all snaky bastards in the original fluff. They just were constantly challenging themselves. Part of the reason they turned traitor was Alpharius's close relationship with Horus, and then they enjoyed the challenge of facing other Space Marines as something they'd never been able to do before. But they weren't sneaky. They were still a Space Marine Legion, and overwhelming force was how Space Marine Legions fought. They just were willing to try unorthodox stuff. If they'd always been goofing around and doing things the slow way, surely they'd have been censured by the Emperor like Lorgar was for being too slow.

Plus Horus and Roboute openly criticized them for their tactics, ones long dead and the other is sitting in a stasis with his neck sliced open high on the poison that covered said neck opening blade, so whose a smarter primarch now aye

Yeah, well, when your default response is to hide in a hole, you're going to last longer than the guys who try to go toe to toe with an immortal demi-god, or the chosen Daemon Primarch of Slaanesh.

I don't know if I remember Horus criticizing Alpharius, and all Guilliman said was that the way the Alpha Legion sometimes fought was inefficient and wasteful. And technically, Guilliman was right. The duty of the Legions was to conquer the galaxy as quickly and efficiently as possible, not to make a game of it.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

I don't know if I remember Horus criticizing Alpharius, and all Guilliman said was that the way the Alpha Legion sometimes fought was inefficient and wasteful. And technically, Guilliman was right. The duty of the Legions was to conquer the galaxy as quickly and efficiently as possible, not to make a game of it.

In the Game of Golden Thrones, you win and you die

I'm not liking lorgor because he seems like too much of a pansy. While the others are decisive and straightforward, he is underhanded (not in the sneaky way apharious is but in the cowardly wishy washy way), and just too unsure of himself. Even after he turns to chaos, he remains an underhanded pansy that is wishy washy. You would think he woulda grown some then but even then he remained the same and never grew out of it.

He eventually develops out of that.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The GEOM should have bolstered Angron's forces to overthrow his oppressors and let him be, and he should have given Mortarian control of the Dusk Raiders to kill the necromancer lord.

That makes no damn sense. Giving him a Legion is the same thing as showing up himself; either way Mortarion doesn't get to do the job himself. The Emperor probably could have loaned the guy a helmet to protect against all that poison gas.


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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

The thing was, and I played Alpha Legion in the long long ago of 2nd Edition, the Alpha Legion didn't start fighting like that until after the Heresy, and it was because they had to. Suddenly, they were renegades; hunted traitors. Going to ground and fighting a guerrilla war was how they adapted to keep from being destroyed by the Imperium. The original fluff for the Alpha Legion had them being arrogant bastards who constantly looked for new ways to defeat their enemies. They weren't all snaky bastards in the original fluff. They just were constantly challenging themselves. Part of the reason they turned traitor was Alpharius's close relationship with Horus, and then they enjoyed the challenge of facing other Space Marines as something they'd never been able to do before. But they weren't sneaky. They were still a Space Marine Legion, and overwhelming force was how Space Marine Legions fought. They just were willing to try unorthodox stuff. If they'd always been goofing around and doing things the slow way, surely they'd have been censured by the Emperor like Lorgar was for being too slow.

I liked the old fluff much better, they were basically 30K Ultramarines that decided to put all their theoreticals to practical use just to see if they could. The IA says Alpharius' initial campaigns, with their versatile and often unorthodox tactics, were extremely successful. Guilliman, who was portrayed as far more a starch-ass in the IA articles more akin to how Ultramarines are in 40K (they've really humbled him up in HH) complained that their tactics weren't falling with tradition and what was "proper" warfare as defined by his own experience. He basically pointed at all his laurels and victory banners, and said Alpharius would never be able to catch up so he should just fall in line and listen to his elders. Instead, Alpharius told him to stuff it and pushed his Legion to be the absolute best they could be. By the time the Heresy was looming, he had built them into a force that no alien threat could stand against. Space Marines were the next logical opponents, they just needed a reason. So later, when instead of seizing some world's capital immediately, he spent a couple of weeks letting them build up their defenses and then set off a series of sabotages to herd all of the defenders into a killing field. Guilliman critiqued his excessive expenditure of boltshells, Horus thought it was pretty neat. When the battle-lines were drawn, the Hydra's choice was easy.

This current trend of plan within a plan within a counter plan just as planned your mom is Alpharius is getting really silly. And apparently, after 10,000 years of having the capability to create super-duper Marines in 6 months, Alpha Legion has done nothing except annoy the Imperium with the occasional cult here and there.


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 tomball0706 wrote:
Concerning his Librarian problems, it was more that they gave everyone a major headache and a nosebleed, Angron could hold a titans foot above his head for ages but couldn't handle a little nosebleed which frankly, I find hilarious

It was a Scout Titan and he almost died doing it, right after Lorgar almost died tanking two plasma blaster shots with his face.

The issue with the Alpha Legion (not my issue with them, clearly) is that they are poorly developed. But, seeing as they're the most secretive legion ever (besides II and XI) doesn't it make sense that no one would know anything? And because they're so hard to write as the brilliant masters of subterfuge and sabotage prior lore has made them out to be, very few short stories or novels are dedicated to them. Post HH I can think of only two short stories, and they're mentioned as opponents in two novels. So is it any wonder that they don't stack up compared to the other 1st foundings?

 Omegus wrote:


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 tomball0706 wrote:
Concerning his Librarian problems, it was more that they gave everyone a major headache and a nosebleed, Angron could hold a titans foot above his head for ages but couldn't handle a little nosebleed which frankly, I find hilarious

It was a Scout Titan and he almost died doing it, right after Lorgar almost died tanking two plasma blaster shots with his face.

Oh yeah he was incredibly close to being squished, but he still held his ground and didn't let the titans foot squish him and Lorgar and seemed "relatively" calm and relaxed by Angrons usual standard while speaking to Lorgar who was suffering from a melting face. But a nose bleed? awwh hell no, hit's the fan then

Well, all that was during the stress of combat. The nosebleeds and headaches and buzzing in his nails was during the downtime when he was trying to relax and not murderrapekill people. Imagine a dentist giving you a root canal when you're trying to sleep. It would make me cranky too.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:
Lorgar. He is a whiner who doesn't get anything done

This is factually untrue.

To be fair, I have yet to read Betrayer so it's possible he get's better. But from what I have read Lorgar seems to manipulated into doing everything my Erebus and Kor Phaeron

Guilliman for me, since he wanted everyone else to obey his codex while violating the spirit of his rules whenever it suited him (Chapters can only control one world. What's that? Oh, the Ultramarines do only control one world, it just happens to have dominion over eight other planets as well), and his idea of debating with someone who disagreed with his combat tactics was pointing out that he had more victories, due to a two hundred year head start.

Horus. Duh. If it weren't for this guy, perhaps 40k's history would've been much more pleasant and idealistic rather than grimdark and "humanity-is-screwed-in-the-long-run"....

A LACK OF GRIMDARK IS HERESY! *BLAM*

VensersRevenge wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:
Lorgar. He is a whiner who doesn't get anything done

This is factually untrue.

To be fair, I have yet to read Betrayer so it's possible he get's better. But from what I have read Lorgar seems to manipulated into doing everything my Erebus and Kor Phaeron

His own "sons" lead him about by his private parts (figuratively) because he is too wishy washy and unsure of himself to even think for himself. The Emperor told him what to do before and he was so glad to be told what to do he glorified the Emperor. As soon as that is gone, he acts like a lover scorned and lets his new "girlfriend/masters" (his underlings who understood his weakness and decided to use him like an ignorant puppet) lead him about and tell him what to do. Not a single one of the other primarchs had any respect for him and I don't blame them a bit.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
Who votes Alpharius/Omegon? Come on what do they do that's annoying ?

I think a fair amount of people think the whole Alpharius/Omegon twin primarch nonsense is pretty silly. Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

An enigmatic mysterious and rather unique legion is the worst in a series awash with chest-beating alpha-males who can turn any statement into a slight worthy of capital punishment and basically follow the tried-and-true method of 'lets just drop pod onto the planet and smash their faces in' almost exclusively.

Yeah, I disagree. I see your Alpha Legion, and raise you Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Word Bearers. etc. I remember AL in 2e, where their fluff was basically 'like the other Legions, but kinda green, not salamanders green but still green'

MarsNZ wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
Who votes Alpharius/Omegon? Come on what do they do that's annoying ?

I think a fair amount of people think the whole Alpharius/Omegon twin primarch nonsense is pretty silly. Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

An enigmatic mysterious and rather unique legion is the worst in a series awash with chest-beating alpha-males who can turn any statement into a slight worthy of capital punishment and basically follow the tried-and-true method of 'lets just drop pod onto the planet and smash their faces in' almost exclusively.

Yeah, I disagree. I see your Alpha Legion, and raise you Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Word Bearers. etc. I remember AL in 2e, where their fluff was basically 'like the other Legions, but kinda green, not salamanders green but still green'

You don't seem to remember their 2E fluff very well. Because I played AL in 2nd Edition, and you're about as right as a NASCAR race.

Funny because I have the (original, softcover) 2e Chaos Codex sitting next to me. If anything the EC have inherited the old AL fluff of 'being da bessss'.

Alpharius seems to be the most mock worthy primarch. His delusion about how the Emperor would want him to side with the cabal and somehow destroying mankind for the sake of the elder and fish people was a good idea. Then again it would have been an elaborate ruse to use the cabal to i''ll give him the benefit of the doubt. Dorn and Guilliman, so many Legions joined Horus just out of hatred of those guys. But really its Dorn, a pompous, rage full hypocrite. Then again Papa smurf is a pompous cowardly hypocrite. Pretty tuff when he has a Legion, Custodes and the Emperor backing him up against Lorgar, yet he runs away from Angron and them starts his own little mini empire refuses to send help to Terra sitting out the Heresy. Papa smurf wins against down but just barely. Oh and how Smurf and Fistius Maximus are whiney humanitarians but when their dreams and hopes are destroyed their brutality matches and even eclipses that of Horus. The Night Haunters vindication wasn't the assassin, its was when Dorn and Guill decided to virus bomb every world that sided with Horus.

I don't get the hate directed at the Dark Angels, Johnson had pretty good rational for fighting where he did, and considering he nearly destroyed a Legion that hides in the shadow I don't think anyone can say he didn't do his part.

EVIL INC wrote:

His own "sons" lead him about by his private parts (figuratively) because he is too wishy washy and unsure of himself to even think for himself. The Emperor told him what to do before and he was so glad to be told what to do he glorified the Emperor. As soon as that is gone, he acts like a lover scorned and lets his new "girlfriend/masters" (his underlings who understood his weakness and decided to use him like an ignorant puppet) lead him about and tell him what to do. Not a single one of the other primarchs had any respect for him and I don't blame them a bit.

Magnus counted him among his closest friends and Horus considered him wise.

They most certainly respect him after he curb-stomped Fulgrim, bossed around Horus, and turned Angron into a Daemon Prince.

To be fair, Magnus may have liked Lorgar, but he definitely thought Lorgar was his inferior, from what I can tell.

Granted, Magnus felt that way about basically everyone besides the Emperor, but still, lol.

And yeah, current Lorgar does not feth around.

Angron outright states that he will never like Lorgar, but he respects him.

Also, he makes it very clear to Horus while communicating across the galaxy and in person that "Warmaster" is just a title, and that they both know who the real force behind this heresy is.

This decision was difficult for me because every Primarch has severe flaws and many are crippling personal flaws. Many are overly prideful and childish with egos far in excess of their gigantic forms. But, for me, my least favorite is the Lion. There is a lot to how he acts that doesn't sit well with me. He almost acts like a Primarch that falls but without the balls to rebel. This is compounded by recent iterations of the DA lore bringing up the question of whether Luther or Jonson was the traitor.

That being said he is still a character that I like many aspects to. He is valorous, and overall just. He has all of the traits common to all Primarchs: Vast intelligence, the ability to lead men to victory and irrefutable tactical ability. But when you get past the lip service, he is immature and paranoid.

Though my favorite Primarchs are Alpharius Omegon and Vulkan so I may just be weird.