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VensersRevenge wrote:
Lorgar. He is a whiner who doesn't get anything done

This is factually untrue.

I'm shocked that Sanguinus has got so many votes! Not that I'm particularly fond of Loyalists, but I thought that such a goody two-shoes should be more liked than that... Wait a minute...

What I don´t get is why Vulcan is the one with 0 votes. He was my second choice.

And as a Lorgar fan, I like him getting so much hate. Hate is the way to the Dark Gods, he would be pleased.

 Omegus wrote:

Roubote due to jealous haters.

What if they dislike him for being a pussy?

At the moment he stands out as the only Primarch to have been wholly and utterly defeated by a mortal in single combat. His fight with Kor Phaeron was not even close.

Anyway, I don't know who I'd choose. Possibly the Lion, now that Dan Abnett has molded him into something awful with his fat, bald hands, but that seems unfair because I haven't actually read the book.

Perhaps Vulkan for being included into the worst subplot in the series.

Actually, I think I'll go with Horus. His fall was tragically handled badly, and he hasn't been interesting to read about since Horus Rising. To make matters worse, despite being Warmaster, no one seems to respect him. Lorgar makes it very clear to Horus that he is running things and Horus is a figurehead, Angron tolerates Horus only because he hates the Emperor more, and Magnus openly defies him with a sneer on his flagship (Lorgar does the same though). For the big bad of the series, he just comes off as so impotent.

Leman Russ in my least favorite primarch by far.

He should be super cool, but has been written to be too many things at once and just comes off as a raging donkey-cave instead. Much like the SW's in general...should be super cool, come off very poorly as a result of bad writing.

Not specifically bad-writing, but attempting to make the SW cool, and by extension their Primarch, in a setting where they are not the main characters, but simply one of a very, very large cast.

The events at Armageddon, specifically, is where the writers went wrong with the Space Wolves. The *idea* was cool, but the execution very poor and, in the end, all factions involved end up looking worse off.

So... less poor writing, more poor planning. The extent of that whole story was not well-thought.

Guilliman, at least as written by his Wardness, is a pure Marty Sue if I ever read one.

The Emperor's Gift was indeed terrible once the Space Wolves became the protagonists.

I still wonder if any of the traitor primarchs would have believed Horus could actually defeat the Emperor. I'd have thought Magnus or Lorgar would have recognised that to fight him in single combat was utterly futile.

I chose Magnus because he was arrogent enough to think that he could master and control the power of the warp without any side effects.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

At the moment he stands out as the only Primarch to have been wholly and utterly defeated by a mortal in single combat. His fight with Kor Phaeron was not even close.

Eugen Temba against Horus. Temba lost, but he wounded and nearly killed him.

And the Lion Vs Luther. Primarch vs Human, human wins and, after 10000 years, the primarch is still recovering.

Temba did nothing the passage describes that the blade lead his strokes. Horus was wounded by the weapon not Tembas skill. It was the power of the dark gods which wounded Horus not a mere mortal. In terms of actual damage in the fight it was very one sided throughout, Temba barely landed a hit on Horus who tore him apart after slaughtering many, many plaguebearers.


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Admittedly the Lion just sucks. Also Magnus very nearly lost to Ironhelm but that was just stupidly written to fit in with the out of place fluff.

The power of Chaos always works this way. The same could be said, to an extension, of Kor Phaeron and Luther.

However, you are right, especially in the one-sided part. I stand corrected and limit my "humans who defeated or nearly defeated primarchs" list to Luther and Kor Phaeron.

Temba and Luther were both given the backing of the Chaos Gods. Both were corrupted and mutated into something inhuman.

Kor Phaeron was not.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

Roubote due to jealous haters.

What if they dislike him for being a pussy?

At the moment he stands out as the only Primarch to have been wholly and utterly defeated by a mortal in single combat. His fight with Kor Phaeron was not even close.

Um... this was a long-standing Chaos sorcerer/cultist, who was enhanced to be equivalent to a Space Marine, who was then further enhanced by Chaos, and was using an ancient magical dagger to enhance his power further still, all during a time when the Legions were stripped of psychic defense.

Horus almost died to a old fat guy with a magic sword.

 Omegus wrote:

Um... this was a long-standing Chaos sorcerer/cultist, who was enhanced to be equivalent to a Space Marine, who was then further enhanced by Chaos, and was using an ancient magical dagger to enhance his power further still, all during a time when the Legions were stripped of psychic defense.

Horus almost died to a old fat guy with a magic sword.

At least that old fat guy was actually using his magic sword.

Ironically, the moment Kor Phaeron used the dagger was the moment Guilliman's life was spared.

While all you are saying is "technically" true, it requires a bit of context. Namely, that Kor Phaeron was in terms of psychic/arcane power so much weaker than Lorgar at this point that he had small penis syndrome over it. Compare to Leman Russ, who managed far better against Magnus.

Primarchs all have psychic defenses, as indicated in Betrayer (It notes that the minds of Primarchs are very difficult to affect normally, only to note that Angron's is particularly resistant due to the Nails).

I was admittedly mostly trolling you anyway, while Guilliman's showing in Know No Fear basically amounted to getting his ass spanked, in Betrayer he fares far better. Against Angron of all people. I just found your comment that only a "jealous hater" could dislike Guilliman funny.

Alpha/omega because im against twins!!!!!

gilamonster wrote:
Alpha/omega because im against twins!!!!!

Have my exalt.


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 Omegus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

Roubote due to jealous haters.

What if they dislike him for being a pussy?

At the moment he stands out as the only Primarch to have been wholly and utterly defeated by a mortal in single combat. His fight with Kor Phaeron was not even close.

Um... this was a long-standing Chaos sorcerer/cultist, who was enhanced to be equivalent to a Space Marine, who was then further enhanced by Chaos, and was using an ancient magical dagger to enhance his power further still, all during a time when the Legions were stripped of psychic defense.

Horus almost died to a old fat guy with a magic sword.

as Void Dragon has said it would be lovely to have some context here. As already said it wasn't really Temba who wounded Horus it was the sword. The "magic sword" was actually the blade used to kill (or effectively kill) Roubote and Horus survived it and showed no ill affects long term (accept the whole chaos thing which you could probably claim was a hell of an ill effect...) and that "old fat guy" moved almost too fast for Horus to counter and primarchs can move at a speed where space marines can't even see them so...yeah. Also Horus rammed his blade into Tembas stomach and he laughed. He was immensely strong and yet Horus still brushed him aside.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

Um... this was a long-standing Chaos sorcerer/cultist, who was enhanced to be equivalent to a Space Marine, who was then further enhanced by Chaos, and was using an ancient magical dagger to enhance his power further still, all during a time when the Legions were stripped of psychic defense.

Horus almost died to a old fat guy with a magic sword.

At least that old fat guy was actually using his magic sword.

Ironically, the moment Kor Phaeron used the dagger was the moment Guilliman's life was spared.

While all you are saying is "technically" true, it requires a bit of context. Namely, that Kor Phaeron was in terms of psychic/arcane power so much weaker than Lorgar at this point that he had small penis syndrome over it. Compare to Leman Russ, who managed far better against Magnus.

Primarchs all have psychic defenses, as indicated in Betrayer (It notes that the minds of Primarchs are very difficult to affect normally, only to note that Angron's is particularly resistant due to the Nails).

I was admittedly mostly trolling you anyway, while Guilliman's showing in Know No Fear basically amounted to getting his ass spanked, in Betrayer he fares far better. Against Angron of all people. I just found your comment that only a "jealous hater" could dislike Guilliman funny.

he doesnt fare too well against Angron, beaten to the ground with his chest sliced open. Lorgar believes that he would be lucky if he ever walked again. He does give Lorgar a mauling though.

Given the circumstances, he did better than Russ, so give ol' Papa Smurf some credit.

I don't remember him really mauling Lorgar, wasn't the latter mostly busy maintaining the ritual to turn Angron into a full-fledged Daemon Prince?

And whatever happened to all those sweet words the daemons whispered to Lorgar about how he would defeat Guilliman if he were to face him in combat. They wouldn't have lied, would they?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:
Lorgar. He is a whiner who doesn't get anything done

This is factually untrue.

Very true.

He is a whiner who got quite a bit done.


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 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Guilliman, at least as written by his Wardness, is a pure Marty Sue if I ever read one.

Ward never wrote about Guilliman, and you apparently have no idea what a Marty Stu is.

Double failure, lol.

1. Dorn - He is psychotic.
2. Angron - He's stupid, and psychotic. I don't care if it's not his fault.
3. Corax - Whiner.
4. Horus - So freaking weak. He was turned too damn easily. He had the least amount of reasoning. That piece of gak chose.

I don't know what to think about the Lion anymore. At one point I was convinced he was basically Curze with a knightly candy coating, but now I don't know what to think. How much Guilliman seems in awe of him really threw me for a loop.

BaconUprising wrote:
he doesnt fare too well against Angron, beaten to the ground with his chest sliced open. Lorgar believes that he would be lucky if he ever walked again. He does give Lorgar a mauling though.

He does manage to deal several crippling blows to Angron before he falls though. Lorgar notes he looked "little better" than Guilliman.


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 Omegus wrote:
Given the circumstances, he did better than Russ, so give ol' Papa Smurf some credit.

Well, Magnus is at the bare minimum two tiers above Kor Phaeron, being more powerful than Lorgar to the extent that Lorgar feels uncomfortable and strained being next to the psychic avatar he is projecting from the other side of the galaxy.

I don't really see how he did better than Russ "given the circumstances", Russ could at least break through Magnus' armour and break his arm, even if the final fight was luck-based and not skill-based.

I don't remember him really mauling Lorgar, wasn't the latter mostly busy maintaining the ritual to turn Angron into a full-fledged Daemon Prince?

He does managed to break a few of Lorgar's ribs (Lorgar meanwhile cracked open Guilliman's skull). In their sole martial encounter, they were about on par.

And whatever happened to all those sweet words the daemons whispered to Lorgar about how he would defeat Guilliman if he were to face him in combat. They wouldn't have lied, would they?

Well, Chaos does lie, lol. Lorgar might have ultimately bested Guilliman in single combat, it is hard to say. If he actually had full use of his sorcery at the time, he almost certainly would.


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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Very true.

He is a whiner who got quite a bit done.

Exactly.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Guilliman, at least as written by his Wardness, is a pure Marty Sue if I ever read one.

Guilliman, as written by Dan Abnett, is none of the above.

Lorgar was a whiny bitch, but as of Betrayer he actually has become rather Machiavellian and holds his own against Guilliman so hes improved.

Guilliman is probably my least favorite. Boring and annoying. You know what he's going to say before he says it and his mary sueisms become exhausting.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Given the circumstances, he did better than Russ, so give ol' Papa Smurf some credit.

Well, Magnus is at the bare minimum two tiers above Kor Phaeron, being more powerful than Lorgar to the extent that Lorgar feels uncomfortable and strained being next to the psychic avatar he is projecting from the other side of the galaxy.

I don't really see how he did better than Russ "given the circumstances", Russ could at least break through Magnus' armour and break his arm, even if the final fight was luck-based and not skill-based.

I believe Omegus was originally comparing Guillian’s fight with Angron, with the one between Russ and Angron. Russ got completely stomped by Angron, whereas Guilliman did not.


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 Harriticus wrote:
Guilliman is probably my least favorite. Boring and annoying. You know what he's going to say before he says it and his mary sueisms become exhausting.

Sigh... I thought we were over this already.

 Redcruisair wrote:
I believe Omegus was originally comparing Guillian’s fight with Angron, with the one between Russ and Angron. Russ got completely stomped by Angron, whereas Guilliman did not.

Ah, you may be right.

To be fair to Russ, we only see two parts of the fight, the beginning and the end, and the end of the fight was narrated by Angron himself, a biased observer. Leman Russ also did at some point manage to disarm Angron.

Besides, the scene was dumb as all hell, so feth it.

Also, it is my observation that posts proclaiming disfavor towards Roboute Guilliman would be far more acceptable if the word "Mary Sue" wasn't thrown around like a dwarf whore. It is almost always used by those without any real concept of what the word means.

Personally I find Guilliman to indeed be kind of bland and uninteresting, but that isn't because Rowboat is a Mary Sue.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
I believe Omegus was originally comparing Guillian’s fight with Angron, with the one between Russ and Angron. Russ got completely stomped by Angron, whereas Guilliman did not.

Ah, you may be right.

To be fair to Russ, we only see two parts of the fight, the beginning and the end, and the end of the fight was narrated by Angron himself, a biased observer. Leman Russ also did at some point manage to disarm Angron.

Besides, the scene was dumb as all hell, so feth it.

Agreed.

You all expect the heresy series to be homers illiad, it's pulp sci fi, it's gonna blow sometimes haha

I don't expect it to always be good, but that does not mean I will not point out when it sucks.

I voted for Lorgar.
Honestly, he is a weak willed and weak minded individual who basically pissed all over his fathers wishes of NOT BEING WORSHIPPED, got his a** handed to him but Roboute, and then gets manipulated by his foster father and a weird, unknown Erebus who just turns up evil for no apparent reason or detailed back story...
I'm stilling waiting for that one.