Games workshop finaly getting rid of it's metal stock

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**Troike**

Kroothawk wrote:
GW would never discontinue a whole army that just got a fresh full expensive Codex, right?

Probably not when it managed to sell well despite the all-metal models.

Probably not permanently, anyway, if they really are suddenly culling all metal. Which we don't yet know if they are.

**H.B.M.C.**

Herzlos wrote:
But it also means they're taking a massive (95%+) hit against what it'd achieve at retail.

But not really, because if it doesn't sell in its current form it's worth $0. Less than that actually, as it costs them to hold it in stock. You can't lose what you weren't going to make in the first place.

**Andrew1975**

Seams like instead of melting it for slag they could have had some kind of contest giveaway or something.

**Harriticus**

Peregrine wrote:
Ravajaxe wrote:
But melting miniatures instead of selling them, even with a rebate and telling it's over ? Why ?

Because GW operates under the assumption that all of their customers are rabid fanboys. They assume that you are going to buy X models every month, and the only question is how much you will pay for them. Offering the old metal models allows you to spend less money on your purchase. Someone at GW has probably decided that it's better for profits to just sell the remaining stock as scrap metal and let you buy that nice expensive plastic tactical squad instead.

Harriticus wrote:
The whole "will they destroy their molds out of spite before they go under?" is a real threat imo.

Not really. GW's management wants to make money, and making money by selling the IP is still making money. Trashing molds out of spite reduces the sale value of that IP for no good reason. The only reason to trash the molds would be if they don't think the models are going to sell at all in the future and there's no point in spending money keeping the obsolete molds in a warehouse somewhere.

This isn't true. It's true GW is greedy and want money, but they want the money on their own terms and are extremely vicious/spiteful towards anything else that blocks this. They don't want you (veteran gaming-orientated over 15) customers, they don't want to advertise (despite every other company in the world doing it), and they don't want to market their IP to other mediums despite the potential it has. If GW did any of these things they'd make more money immediately. Above else they're a very mean-spirited company that has a real hatred towards their fanbase. GW operates in its own ridiculous angry bubble. Thus they can be very unpredictable. They went from not releasing codex's fast enough to releasing them too fast and from relaunching White Dwarf to splitting it in two a year later. I don't think anyone saw either of that coming, because we don't operate under the same kind of logic that dominates GW.

Do I think GW will destroy their molds when they go under? Probably not. If it were any other company I'd laugh at that notion and call it ridiculous. But after dealing with GW for years, I find it within the realm of rational possibility even if it's unlikely.

**Ouze**

To be honest, at this point I wish GWS would either squat Sisters or just release the damn plastics. They have sat in this half-ass limbo for far too long, it sucks.

**evildrcheese**

Ouze wrote:
To be honest, at this point I wish GWS would either squat Sisters or just release the damn plastics. They have sat in this half-ass limbo for far too long, it sucks.

QFT. Although I can happily field over 2000 pts of Sisters I want plastic models to expand my options and troop choices. Sadly from being burnt by so many plastic Sisters rumours I'm at the point where I won't believe it until I'm holding them in my hand.

D

**Herzlos**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
But it also means they're taking a massive (95%+) hit against what it'd achieve at retail.

But not really, because if it doesn't sell in its current form it's worth $0. Less than that actually, as it costs them to hold it in stock. You can't lose what you weren't going to make in the first place.

Assuming none of it would ever sell, then you'd be correct. It's still a terrible return rate. They are going to get the worst possible price for it, and they'll be dropping a huge amount of their range (search of "metal" on GW's site shows about 800 results, though some are paints).

Realistically, if pewter costs £24/kg in small quantities before VAT, it'll cost less than £20kg in the bulk they are dealing with. so £20k/ton. The metal buyer will be offering at most 25% of what they'll sell it on for, so we're looking at most £5k/ton. Rumour is that there are multiple truck loads going, and we can assume a truck can take 20-30ton easily, so the absolute most they could be looking at is £100-150k/truck.

If a mini weighs 25g (pretty big), then you'd get 40 per kilo, or 40,000 per ton, and still assuming 20-30 ton truck loads, we're looking at between 800,000 and 120,000 minis, which we'll give a conservative average of £5 each RRP, so a low end estimate of £4-6million at retail, per truck. So they are taking at best a massive (97.5%) hit on potential income. Like I said earlier; a desperate attempt to stem their losses, in a very short-sighted manner. Even selling them at £1/mini would make them 8 times as much money, albeit over a slightly longer period (really, at £1/mini how long would it take for stuff to sell? A day?) and the overhead of packing and shipping the stuff. But if sales are down so badly there's probably excess warehousing capacity anyway.

I can see why they are doing it this way, but there are many better things they could do with the stock that'd either earn them customer goodwill (free metal blister with every WD sub or online order) or far more money (sell the mini's at anything above 97.5% off) , if only they'd get over their reluctance to offer anything resembling a deal.

I'm having a look at the metal stocks now to see if there's anything I want before it's gone, and there are a few things I'm wavering on. If they were at a clearance at 50% there would currently be over £100 worth of stuff in my basket, as it is I'm not too bothered about it.

Hell, even announcing to the customers that they're dropping the metal line on ${date} would probably double their returns on the metal stocks at least.

**Captain Blood**

Herzlos wrote:
Hell, even announcing to the customers that they're dropping the metal line on ${date} would probably double their returns on the metal stocks at least.

Quite.

**Peregrine**

Herzlos wrote:
Even selling them at £1/mini would make them 8 times as much money

Except, as I said in the other thread, selling for £1 each has a fairly significant chance of costing them a sale of a £10 finecast/plastic model that you might buy instead. And since the cost GW pays to sell you a model (retail employee salaries, shipping, shelf space, etc) are pretty much the same no matter what they're selling you it would be suicidally stupid to let you get £1 models instead of £10 ones.

customer goodwill (free metal blister with every WD sub or online order)

But do you have a compelling argument that this goodwill will translate into enough additional sales to make up for the £10 models you aren't buying because you got a free one instead? When you answer keep in mind that GW is extremely conservative in their risk analysis.

If they were at a clearance at 50% there would currently be over £100 worth of stuff in my basket, as it is I'm not too bothered about it.

Sure. But now be honest with yourself and tell me this: how long will it take you to spend £100 on GW products if you don't buy those models at 50% off?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Harriticus wrote:
This isn't true. It's true GW is greedy and want money, but they want the money on their own terms and are extremely vicious/spiteful towards anything else that blocks this.

This is completely false. GW is short-sighted and out of touch with what their customers want, but they aren't doing things out of spite.

They don't want you (veteran gaming-orientated over 15) customers,

Of course they do. They want all the sales they can get. They just don't believe that older customers offer a very good return on their investment in marketing and product design effort. So they're perfectly happy to take your money, but they aren't going to make any special effort to get it.

they don't want to advertise (despite every other company in the world doing it)

This isn't spite, it's being excessively conservative. GW believes (wrongly, IMO) that advertising doesn't work very well for such a niche hobby and carries a high risk of spending lots of money without getting a matching increase in sales. And since GW's obsessive focus is on the next financial report instead of their long-term future it's not exactly surprising that they'd be reluctant to take that risk.

and they don't want to market their IP to other mediums despite the potential it has.

Err, what? You do realize that GW licenses their IP for books and video games, right? They only draw the line at making cheap happy meal toys and other garbage that would just devalue the brand.

Do I think GW will destroy their molds when they go under? Probably not. If it were any other company I'd laugh at that notion and call it ridiculous. But after dealing with GW for years, I find it within the realm of rational possibility even if it's unlikely.

No, it's not rational at all. If GW is greedy then it makes absolutely no sense to trash molds that could be potentially valuable to whoever buys their IP (and yes, someone will buy GW's IP if/when they die as a company). GW are making bad decisions, but that doesn't mean that they're spiteful idiots who throw away money just because it's fun to be a comic book villain.

**Looky Likey**

Harriticus wrote:

This isn't true. It's true GW is greedy and want money, but they want the money on their own terms and are extremely vicious/spiteful towards anything else that blocks this. They don't want you (veteran gaming-orientated over 15) customers, they don't want to advertise (despite every other company in the world doing it), and they don't want to market their IP to other mediums despite the potential it has. If GW did any of these things they'd make more money immediately. Above else they're a very mean-spirited company that has a real hatred towards their fanbase. GW operates in its own ridiculous angry bubble. Thus they can be very unpredictable. They went from not releasing codex's fast enough to releasing them too fast and from relaunching White Dwarf to splitting it in two a year later. I don't think anyone saw either of that coming, because we don't operate under the same kind of logic that dominates GW.

Do I think GW will destroy their molds when they go under? Probably not. If it were any other company I'd laugh at that notion and call it ridiculous. But after dealing with GW for years, I find it within the realm of rational possibility even if it's unlikely.

They have realised the spending power of the older veteran hence the focus on "collectors" in recent language from GW. When it comes to IP I do not get the impression that they do not want to exploit it just that they want total control over the IP. This is understandable, there have been many god awful adaptations of various IP over the years, even the LotR films are considered poor by the surviving Tolkien family members. However where GW enters fantasy land is their skills to exploit their IP, see the recent abysmal UM film were they convinced themselves they could be script writers, producers, etc. when they clearly can't. The even more recent search for new BL authors were they "found" only in house talent further re enforces this point.

I think the story around the Halo film and how Microsoft who have significantly more money than GW mishandled that (well worth reading as it is very funny in places: http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/04/halo-movie-generation-xbox/) would be magnified a million times with GW if Fox/HBO/etc., came knocking.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Troike wrote:
30 points per model, you mean? I dunno, could be.

That was actually a slight exaggeration, they are merely 28 ppm. The hospitaller is as cheap as 23 points, though. But the one with the Banner will be 53 points though.
160 for 5 T3 3+/6++ models. Could get 5 Crusaders (3++ goodness) and 5 DCA (will strike just as hard as those models from your command squad, except at I6 instead of I1) for less points. You must really value that AP2 and FNP. Or you have already used your 6 conclave slots.

Troike wrote:
But I don't want to sell my SoB. I want to use them to play 40K.

Yes, but it is like shares in a company. Even if you do not sell them, you are considered richer if they went up and poorer if they went down, even though you still have the very same thing before and after. It is still nice to know that you could sell the army for a lot of money !
Also, do you need to buy new ones ? I have my 1600 points, I do not as long as GW does not update the codex to make my army illegal. And they will not release a new codex without models.

Ouze wrote:
To be honest, at this point I wish GWS would either squat Sisters or just release the damn plastics.

If it comes to that… then, we will be squatted :(.

**BlackTalos**

I guess everyone here is agreed that the "metal melt" has happened?
Whatever may the consequences be?

Sad day for sisters players indeed... but hopeful for the plastics =P

**Herzlos**

Peregrine wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
Even selling them at £1/mini would make them 8 times as much money

Except, as I said in the other thread, selling for £1 each has a fairly significant chance of costing them a sale of a £10 finecast/plastic model that you might buy instead. And since the cost GW pays to sell you a model (retail employee salaries, shipping, shelf space, etc) are pretty much the same no matter what they're selling you it would be suicidally stupid to let you get £1 models instead of £10 ones.

Assuming that'd they'd buy anyway and that there are equivalents, you'd be right. But there are a lot of old metals there with no equivalents (grot mechanics, dwarf adventurers, drunken dwarfs, etc), and a lot of people who won't buy things at the new prices anyway.

customer goodwill (free metal blister with every WD sub or online order)

But do you have a compelling argument that this goodwill will translate into enough additional sales to make up for the £10 models you aren't buying because you got a free one instead? When you answer keep in mind that GW is extremely conservative in their risk analysis.

Maybe, maybe not, but to be fair GW are pretty low on the good will department, and again you're assuming that a £1 metal sale will cost them a £10 plastic sale, when they probably don't correlate.

If they were at a clearance at 50% there would currently be over £100 worth of stuff in my basket, as it is I'm not too bothered about it.

Sure. But now be honest with yourself and tell me this: how long will it take you to spend £100 on GW products if you don't buy those models at 50% off?

Me, personally? A couple of years at least. I spent £15 on some soon-to-be-OOP stuff I fancy, but beyond some paint and maybe a new army book I'm not expecting to buy anything else from GW until the new editions of WHF/40K drop. So what I didn't buy there is purely lost revenue.

**Kosake**

If they were at a clearance at 50% there would currently be over £100 worth of stuff in my basket, as it is I'm not too bothered about it.

In one sign? ∞

Almost anything GW sells and I want I can get from ebay for 50-60% of retail price, and I rarely go even that high.

Now, if I wanted something quite bad and I had to choose between hogging ebay for weeks or just paying the same price and get it from the local GW store, I'd just grab it there, nice, clean and unspoiled. So yeah, I may not be the typical consumer that GW makes money on. If they had anything like a reasonable pricing policy this would change. I wouldn't bother ebaying to save 1-2€ while spending 7€ on packaging and safe delivery.

**Wayniac**

I do find it really funny that GW parallels the Imperium: Bloated, corrupt, oblivious to everything around them, thinking that doing the same thing as they've always done with lots of ceremony and pretending that nothing else exists is the way to go as the galaxy changes around them.

Which makes Dakka and Warseer and other community sites Chaos. Or Tau, since most of what's done online is for the benefit of the community.

**Troike**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
160 for 5 T3 3+/6++ models. Could get 5 Crusaders (3++ goodness) and 5 DCA (will strike just as hard as those models from your command squad, except at I6 instead of I1) for less points. You must really value that AP2 and FNP. Or you have already used your 6 conclave slots.

I just like the Canoness too much for my own good.

I also find the idea of an really customisable command squad pretty cool. Yeah, maybe they;'re not the most optimum choice, but I think I can get some good performance out of them. And I'm considering having a Conclave to move around with them too, who would also get the fun benefits of the banner.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Also, do you need to buy new ones ?

Rather. The number in my sig is what I have (more or less) fully assembled or painted, but I have a few other models besides that. Still have a lot of models to buy.

BlackTalos wrote:
I guess everyone here is agreed that the "metal melt" has happened?

Not really. Metal is still on the GW site, we don't know if this is true, yet. I think that people are just a little panicked at the idea of it happening.

BlackTalos wrote:
Sad day for sisters players indeed...

Eh, not necessarily. They may keep some metal models around. As I said, we don't know exactly what's happening yet, if anything.

**Mr. Burning**

Its quite simple really.

Especially from GW's eyes.

Taking sisters as an example, that they haven't had a codex in an age and have had two half hearted pamphlet efforts is irrelevant.

If people had wanted these metal minis, they would have brought them.

They haven't.

**Troike**

Mr. Burning wrote:
they haven't had a codex in an age and have had two half hearted pamphlet efforts is irrelevant.

No they're not. They've only been less then the usual codex releases due to a lack of model updates, which was in turn due to modelling issues preventing GW from doing a model update. And the last two codexes were still investments, showing that GW wants to keep them around.

Mr. Burning wrote:
If people had wanted these metal minis, they would have brought them.

These metal models are expensive, order-only and often don't come in full squads. Of course some are reluctant to buy them, or even unaware that they exist.

Meanwhile, the newest AS codex sold well. This demonstrates a clear interest in the SoB, and shows that people are willing to spend money on them.

**Mr. Burning**

Troike wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
they haven't had a codex in an age and have had two half hearted pamphlet efforts is irrelevant.

No they're not. They've only been less then the usual codex releases due to a lack of model updates, which was in turn due to modelling issues preventing GW from doing a model update. And the last two codexes were still investments, showing that GW wants to keep them around.

Mr. Burning wrote:
If people had wanted these metal minis, they would have brought them.

These metal models are expensive, order-only and often don't come in full squads. Of course some are reluctant to buy them, or even unaware that they exist.

Meanwhile, the newest AS codex sold well. This demonstrates a clear interest in the SoB, and shows that people are willing to spend money on them.

How well did the codex sell? Gw do not provide these figures.

Did it sell well enough to warrant the expense of tooling for Plastic AS?

GW have had what? 10+ years to model and release plastic sisters. If current GW saw a market for them don't you think they would have been released? (3rd parties aren't exactly jumping on this lucrative band wagon either).

Please do not see this as a rant against you or the many active sisters players. But - along with the rest of the metals - demand vs current plastics and third parties and alternative gaming systems (in the case of specialist ) pricing or not just wasn't there. if by GW's own design or by the action of us hobbyists.

Subjectively high pricing would not be considered an issue by GW as to why the range may or may not be selling.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Folk high up in the design department have said the reason there were not plastic sisters earlier is they did not have the ability to make them

they've also said they now do (basically since DV came out of there about)

I'm pretty sure that the 'selling well' info has come from GW digital

Raging Heroes had a very successful KS for female only minis, (a lot of which will end up as sister or guard proxys) despite being a company known for big delays

So I think that IF they are dumping the metal sisters (and don't intend to get them cast on demand in future) there will be plastic replacements

**weeble1000**

I posted this in the GW mid-year financials thread, but it is relevant here:

weeble1000 wrote:
I agree about finding a way to sell off the old metal stock. There's also the potential to recover valuable goodwill. GW loses goodwill by destroying miniatures that will never exist again. It just does. Whatever the financial reasons, it further tarnishes GW's brand.

GW could possibly have boosted the luxury status of its brand by selling off "old" and "obsolete" models at fire sale prices, perhaps in grab bag bundles. Get people buying from the GW webstore again, get people saying something GOOD about GW for once, bring a little money in the door. And who is going to nostalgically buy a decade old miniature? Your veteran customers, possibly those that have stopped purchasing from GW entirely. "Last Chance to Buy" would be a strong motivator to make sales, especially if that carrot was followed by the stick of having a set date to destroy the stock and sell it for scrap. 'We're clearing out all metal stock to make room for more new, modern, professionally designed miniatures from all of the ranges we don't seem like we are supporting right now. This stuff is going to go to the scrap yard by X date, but until then you can buy it!'

Pair that with WD weekly mags that reprint old articles! Get some use out of them. Reprint articles about those models. Reprint the old marketing photos. Reprint old bat reps with those models. Reprint articles about using those models for conversions. Write NEW articles about chopping up those old models to make sweet conversions with your NEW models! Revise the Necromunda and Mordheim rules into a trim little version and PUT THEM IN WD WEEKLY along with adds for bundles that let you buy 5 whole gangs/warbands for $50. Get people excited about GW, even if it is them being excited about the OLD GW. Reuse old material, make fans HAPPY for once.

Hell, GW could have gone whole hog and done a week or two week long GW Retro campaign. Put a new skin on the webstore, do some interviews about the old days with employees and former employees that still like you for some reason, push all of that old metal stock hard, time it with some sort of anniversary (you can find one - Hell, use Jes Goodwins birthday if you have to). Do it for two weeks and let everyone know that at the end of that two week party, GW is putting all of those old models into the smelter and selling them for scrap, never to be seen again.

Missed. Opportunity.

Instead GW gets more ho-humming about its myopic and fan-unfriendly policies.

**Kosake**

Signed and approved, brother.

**BlackTalos**

Troike wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
I guess everyone here is agreed that the "metal melt" has happened?

Not really. Metal is still on the GW site, we don't know if this is true, yet. I think that people are just a little panicked at the idea of it happening.
BlackTalos wrote:
Sad day for sisters players indeed...

Eh, not necessarily. They may keep some metal models around. As I said, we don't know exactly what's happening yet, if anything.

Ah, i was asking about the status as i know so, not because i'm wondering if it's been done :p

I got my info from a good source i know in person. 3 Trailer trucks were filled with metal stock from Nottingham. Up to you if you think 3 trailers is only half their stock ;-)
(and by trailer, i mean This )

I did wonder how the site still has them/why you can still buy them. But until someone actually orders a AS model (and reports back from now) we do not know indeed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
In case the thread/rumor need some more confirmation =p

**Troike**

Mr. Burning wrote:
[How well did the codex sell?

They must've sold pretty well. In the spoilered pic, we can see them at #6 on iBooks.

Spoiler:

Mr. Burning wrote:
Did it sell well enough to warrant the expense of tooling for Plastic AS?

Apparently so, but that's irrelevant anyway. Jes Goodwin and Phil Kelly have both mentioned how GW have tried to make plastic Sisters in the past. What stopped them was modelling issues. Basically, they couldn't get features like the robes or hair to look good in plastic.

Though, reportedly, they said last year that they now have the capability to do them in plastic.

**Kosake**

Troike wrote:

Apparently so, but that's irrelevant anyway. Jes Goodwin and Phil Kelly have both mentioned how GW have tried to make plastic Sisters in the past. What stopped them was modelling issues. Basically, they couldn't get features like the robes or hair to look good in plastic.

Though, reportedly, they said last year that they now have the capability to do them in plastic.

Orly? Dark eldar have long hair, priests, dark angels and probably half the fantasy range have cloth and robes, every other HQ has a cloak... Sounds like a really lame excuse to me.

**Herzlos**

BlackTalos wrote:

I got my info from a good source i know in person. 3 Trailer trucks were filled with metal stock from Nottingham. Up to you if you think 3 trailers is only half their stock ;-)
(and by trailer, i mean This )

I did wonder how the site still has them/why you can still buy them. But until someone actually orders a AS model (and reports back from now) we do not know indeed.

Best figure I can see is approx 29 ton max load for those trucks, so that's anything up to 87 tons of minis. Ouch.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

WayneTheGame wrote:
Which makes Dakka and Warseer and other community sites Chaos. Or Tau, since most of what's done online is for the benefit of the community.

Warseer is chaos : lots of in-fighting, and a bad atmosphere. Dakka is an ork empire : lots of in-fighting, and a nice friendly atmosphere

.

Troike wrote:
I just like the Canoness too much for my own good.

That is what Count-As is for !

Troike wrote:
I also find the idea of an really customisable command squad pretty cool.

That is not a very customizable command squad. A very customizable command squad has access to bikes, jetpacks, stormshields, …

Troike wrote:
The number in my sig is what I have (more or less) fully assembled or painted, but I have a few other models besides that. Still have a lot of models to buy.

Woah, never noticed that. Do you have an exorcist ? You definitely need at least one. And seraphims are really cool to play with Hit and run. Given how monotonous the rest of the army will be, you need one unit of them too !

Mr. Burning wrote:
GW have had what? 10+ years to model and release plastic sisters.

Do not be so hard on GW. 10 years is not that long. To put things into perspective, it took the Apollo program 8 years to land men on the moon, and then bring them safely back. If such a minor feat could be performed in 8 years, surely something as impressive as plastic models can not be achieved in any less than 10 years !

**Andrew1975**

When you scrap metal like that you only get pennies to the dollar. Lets say you melt it down first, you may get more money, but you have to pay for smelting, also as GW metal is an alloy I'm not sure how that works. Bets be would be to smelt it and sell it back to the vendor or another miniature company. Still going to take a giant hit.

Could have just given away grab bags with each online order. They could have written off the loss and built up online sales and maybe some good will. As grab bag items you are not really affecting future sales, because people could not pick what they want, and you are most likely not giving out full usable units.

**Mr. Burning**

Gw could be doing many things with the metal.

GW could offer a discount, or a grab bag or throw them from the windows of Lenton HQ like heavy, silvery candy.

I suspect that the metal range will be accounted for as SLOBS (Slow moving - Obsolete stock) Given GW's practices they wouldn't even dream of offering these items at discount. I mean, the clear out if their specialist range was successful at full price...........

**pretre**

So any confirmation yet?

UK and US sites still have all the AS models shipping in 24 hours. If this guy really saw three truckloads getting dumped, that'd pretty much not be true anymore, right?