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I have a about 5000 points in CSM and here is what I plan to do now: I am not going to spend anymore money on this game. I have decided to keep what I have, play it with friends, and get into another game, like DZC or Warmahordes. CSM sucks, and GW sucks even more for failing to consider balance as a priority. Seriously, give up on CSM, there is no way to make it competitive.
I'm working on updating my groups "40k patch" for 7th ed with a bunch of unit tweaks to bring the main codices we use into line. Example of chaos changes:
Elite - Chaos Terminators: Terminator Champion may take melee weapon upgrades available to chaos terminators. - Posessed: -4 PPM. Marks -1ppm. - Helbrute: +Daemon - Khorne Zerks: +3ppm, Rampage, Chainaxe -1ppm - Thousand Sons: -23 PPM Aspiring Sorceror, free Icon of Flame Fast Attack - Chaos Bikers: +4ppm - Chaos Spawn: Unchanged. - Raptors:Champion -5ppm. - Warp Talons: -5PPM, Champion -10ppm, Marks -1ppm, VotL -1ppm - Heldrake: Baleflamer +15ppm
It gave us much better balance during 6th, shouldn't need much mroe tweaking to get it ready for 7th. The change to heldrake reduced it's power substantially, but the baleflamer is still pretty brutal so that upgrade will start with a points increase for example. Doesn't fix some of the basic flaws in the game such as difficulty of assault or vehicles getting snapped but that's harder to change and test so might come aftwewards.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/01 10:12:27
Look there is always going to be some codices better then others in gw, it's always been that way so people need to relax on that matter for starters. What interest would gw ever have in balance? They just want to sell cool models and they do that quite well. So CSM aren't going to be able to write auto lists win like trip riptides or cronair before that but that doesn't mean they can't be competitive, they are just more challenging to play then some others. The only reason to bitch about CSM is in relation to the lack of a cohesive theme depending on factions and the poor fluff
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Okay, I think people upset that they can't run their own specific legion of CSM have a valid complaint, but that does not make the codex bad. As far as table top power and playability the codex isn't bad, it just isn't that great. Going back to my earlier example take a look at all of the codices available and compare the CSM codex to them, it doesn't look to bad in comparison. The problem is that this new CSM codex was written more to the warband and renegade space marine chapters as opposed to running legions.
If you want a legion codex, you have a valid complaint. This codex does not play well to the legions and plays more like the renegade hodge podge with a smattering of different units.
The problem I have is that so many CSM players act like because they can't run their own favorite legion, for example Night Lords, that this codex is a horrible failure. That doesn't make this codex a failure, it doesn't even mean that GW can fix this problem because even if they did update it to play Night Lords well it still wouldn't make the army any good on the table. Look at Raven Guard, they are roughly in the same boat as Night Lords but the problem at large is that Jump MEQ are terrible and overcosted. At best what you would get is a Night Lord "chapter tactic" that gives you fear and scout or something similar. Would that REALLY make you happy? Because that is what SM get. Raptors would still be mediocre, Warp Talons would still be massively overpriced, just like Assault Marines are mediocre and Vanguard Veterans are massively overpriced.
The Tyranid codex is a terrible codex. CSM is a mediocre codex with some bad units that can perform just fine on the table. It isn't great at portraying the fluff but what codex is?
Before anyone jumps on me and ignores this once again, I PLAY CSM. They are my second army of the six that I play, I enjoy playing my Slaanesh army, I enjoy playing my Khorne army. I want to build up a Tzeentch army and I have no plans on playing a Nurgle army. The only units I have not played in the newest codex are the dinobots because I hate the way they look, even use Mutilators successfully if not in a completely overpriced way.
The problem isn't how powerful the codex is It's how bad the internal balance is. For example, I can take my as-fluffy-as-possible-with-this-codex army of Thousand Sons/Bezerkers/Noise Marines/etc and get my butt handed to me by even the most casual Blood Angels list or I can take the only CSM list that works and kick a casual list's butt. I can't play casual games with this codex. I'm either getting murdered for taking ridiculously over costed units (85% of the codex) or I can bring my mono build and be 'that guy'.
And on a separate note, Tyranids aren't really that bad. Yes, it has some absolutely moronic stuff in the book (Pyrovores, Synapse, Genestealers) but it's a solid book otherwise.
I take fluffy Noise Marines and do just fine, they are far from bad and I could not imagine losing to a casual Blood Angels list. Hell Bezerkers would do great against a casual Blood Angels list, they would be putting themselves into CC just like you want. The CSM codex internal balance isn't as bad as you are making it out to be. Nurgle anything is obviously the best choice but it isn't that much better than Slaanesh and despite what people think the MoK is not bad either, Bezerkers are pretty bad but just taking the MoK on the majority of units isn't a waste of points.
I play three of what are considered the worst armies, CSM, SoB/AS, and Tyranids. SoB are FAR from bad and their reputation is strictly because no one every sees them, CSM have some issues but overall can stand up just fine on their own, Tyranids are just terrible leaving only about one viable list for even casual play. I could go into greater detail for you about the Tyranid codex but that isn't what this topic is about.
Nuln_Oil wrote: I have a about 5000 points in CSM and here is what I plan to do now: I am not going to spend anymore money on this game. I have decided to keep what I have, play it with friends, and get into another game, like DZC or Warmahordes. CSM sucks, and GW sucks even more for failing to consider balance as a priority. Seriously, give up on CSM, there is no way to make it competitive.
ErikSetzer wrote: First off, you don't know suffering if you aren't an Ork fanatic. Seriously, I know they're about to get a new book in a couple of weeks, but THREE new editions of the game have come out since their last book.
As someone who has been a diehard fan of both armies since early 3rd edition, I daresay Orks have never had it as bad overall as CSM have for the past 2 editions. Even when their 48-page Codex was 8 years old, they could at least make some fun builds, and got Speed Freak and Klan rules along the way to spice things up. Chaos has just been a sad shadow of its former self ever since the 3.5 codex was phased out. I tossed out my Thousand Sons when the 6th edition Codex came out and it became obvious that GW has no intention of letting us play Legions ever again.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
With the changes to Flyers and FMC the Heldrake is still an auto-take, but bikes are more appealing since it might not be worth while anymore to max helturkies. Daemon engines and possesed vehicles got better due to the damage chart, so pretty much any chaos vehicle bar the Defiler can be worth the investment (The Land Raider is still expensive, but DP and Durge Caster can be an effective battle taxi). The Defiler is still not advisable due to Ordnance weapons not changing and the points cost of the model itself.
If you want to play Psykerhammer, Thousand Sons give you more charges on top of the AP3 bolters and semi-tough scoring bodies, which might give your Sorcerers room to summon Daemons.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/01 17:18:01
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
The background has plenty of examples of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords capable of fielding large formations of troops in 40k.
I would say the Thousand Sons, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children would be unable to field significant sized forces of the same legion, but at least enough troops for your average 1750 pts army. So pure legion based forces while rare should be available. And it is what a good portion of the customer base wants.
Only the codex designers and BL writers say that there are no legion armies only warbands made out of squads from different chapters or renegades from different legions. Also am rather sure that all AM players wanted their vendettas not to get nerfed and all the players that had to buy a FW book to use their saber weapon platforms didn't want those to get nerfed in to the ground either , but GW did it anyway. Am not sure if 100% of all chaos players ever wanted legions , am sure that 100% of people who bought the high cost FW books and those 9 saber weapon platforms wanted them to stay unnerfed.
Because the Horus Heresy is about legions, because 2nd and 3rd were about legions, because 4th edition and 6th have slaughtered fluff and say NO LEGIONS despite them constantly talking about warbands composed of only legions.
Dembowski and Phill Kelly told they aren't , and they work for GW , so they are right as it is a GW game , not a players game.
Speaking as an Imperial Guard player; the vendetta was under priced. Never bought saber platforms because all your doing is multiplying the cost of each edition change by the cost of all of the rules books you need to stay up to date. I have Heavy Mortars and a Damocles rhino I can't currently use.
But you are correct; 40k is not a player's game, its a sucker's game.
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
Because the Horus Heresy is about legions, because 2nd and 3rd were about legions, because 4th edition and 6th have slaughtered fluff and say NO LEGIONS despite them constantly talking about warbands composed of only legions.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote: MK2, I'm pretty sure you didn't read anything that anyone wrote in this thread.
I did and stand by what I said . I don't agree the CSM dex is not competeve or in worse shape than before . The builds were narrow in 6th its still narrow in 7th ...but competitive .
Competitive? The competitive list for csm in 6th by the end was as a heldrake, cultists, and a DP as allies for CD
I won with CSM late in 6th (I have played for 24 years and travel...get on a plane....to go to big tournaments , so i take the competitive scene seriously)
The only thing that stopped me cold was daemon flying circus loaded up with terrify and puppet master. 2 things i am not worried about in 7th but currently I am playing GK and have not revisited this list, IMHO its still competitive.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/06/02 05:12:38
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
Because the Horus Heresy is about legions, because 2nd and 3rd were about legions, because 4th edition and 6th have slaughtered fluff and say NO LEGIONS despite them constantly talking about warbands composed of only legions.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote: MK2, I'm pretty sure you didn't read anything that anyone wrote in this thread.
I did and stand by what I said . I don't agree the CSM dex is not competeve or in worse shape than before . The builds were narrow in 6th its still narrow in 7th ...but competitive .
Competitive? The competitive list for csm in 6th by the end was as a heldrake, cultists, and a DP as allies for CD
I won with CSM late in 6th (I have played for 24 years and travel...get on a plane....to go to big tournaments , so i take the competitive scene seriously)
The only thing that stopped me cold was daemon flying circus loaded up with terrify and puppet master. 2 things i am not worried about in 7th but currently I am playing GK and have not revisited this list, IMHO its still competitive.
And Nurgle mono-list has reared its ugly head again.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
"We are the Red Sorcerers of Prospero, damned in the eyes of our fellows, and this is to be how our story ends, in betrayal and bloodshed. No...you may find it nobler to suffer your fate, but I will take arms against it." -Ahzek Ahriman
1250 Points of The Prodigal Sons
I think this thread proves the extent to which people do not understand our complaints. It's not a case of the codex power level or internal balance of overall units. Chaos is a unique army in that their should be at least 5 Unique internal armies; each of the 4 Chaos Gods and the different degrees of Undivided armies. With a World Eaters Army being almost entirely different to A Thousand Sons army composition.
If we take this as a basic staple of fluff going back to the beginning of 40k, then we establish the need to field these armies. So Khorne for example, needs to have enough options to field an all Khornate Warband that still has variety.
Now the main issue that seems to be cropping up in this thread is people who just simply do not understand where us veterans of the long war are coming from. People are saying that we can't expect this and that it wouldn't be viable etc etc. But the things is...We had this codex...3.5 did exactly what we wanted it to in regard to the legions and Warbands alike. Sure it had some balance issues; Iron Warriors and Slaaneshi Daemon bomb were very abusable just like the current dex has the Heldrake for cheesy armies. But for those of us that liked to play fluff, the option was there. Instead of tweaking that for balance, GW threw the whole thing out and gave us a bland, minimalist 4th ed codex. Then when 6th rolled around they failed to bring back the things we loved and threw in a bunch of stuff that no one asked for.
For those of you that don't remember (or weren't around to know) 3.5 was broken up as follows:
We had the main codex, all the basic units that you would expect to see in a Chaos army. This could be used to field Warbands or Black Legion armies just as well as the current dex.
We then had four internal "books" The book of Khorne, Book of Nurgle etc. These had specific bonus and negative traits for the 4 powers. For example, all gods had a sacred number and squads got small buffs for being fielded in their respective squad sizes. This wasn't just a case of chucking a mark on everything either. Thousand Sons Terminators were THOUSAND SONS in terminator armour, as in, lead by a Sorceror, the rest are automatons. Emperor's Children Dreads had sonic weaponry, Death Guard Havocs were Plague Marines with Long range weapons. So we didn't just have 4 unique units, almost every unit could be tailored to fit with your Legion.
This was offset by the face that a Fluffy army would have limitations like Deathguard having 0-2 Rhino's or a Khorne Warband having to take Plague marines as Elites if you did break fluff slightly, to represent the infrequent nature of such alliances whilst still giving the option to do so.
One of the biggest attacks on this aspect of the codex was stripping out Daemons, because suddenly we lost god specific units which before added variety to monogod armies. I somewhat understand why this was stripped out and you can somewhat fix it now thanks to allies. But the losses of the Legion specific mechanics just seems like a sad waste. I really feel for all those people with beautiful Forge World Legion dreads who now have to use them as generic Helbrutes.
Then finally we had the other four Undivided Legions, who had small rules fixes to make them play uniquely. Now again, I know a lot of people will cry foul on how broken IW were. But that could have been fixed with tweaks, not by removing it entirely. I for one, played Alpha Legion, which to be honest were pretty subpar even in that codex, as a lot of the cool options (Daemons, Possessed etc) were off limits but we could field specialised cultists. So even though it wasn't the strongest build, it FELT like an Alpha Legion army. When I played in 4th it felt like I was just playing a generic Chaos army that I myself had chosen not to take some of the better units but with no small buffs to even it out anymore.
Another insanely iconic part of the 3.5 codex for me, was customisation of Lords. Firstly we had base profiles for both a Lord and a weaker Lieutenant. You could then pick from a huge variety of upgrades to represent their progress on the path to damnation, with Daemon Prince being the end goal. So I could play a young Warband, where my leader had very little chaotic abilities, then as the points level went up, give him more badass equipment such as daemon armour, and abilities like mutant claws or the ability to cause terror. It made every leader feel unique, not just a handful of traits that can moderately change a fairly useless HQ choice, in a codex with much better Special Characters.
The point I make to all the loyalist players claiming that we complain too much, is not, oh you get chapter tactics, it's oh, you get 5 friggin books to field your unique armies. We are only asking for one. Imagine if Blood Angels, Space Wolves and DA were all rolled into the main codex and you suddenly just had Long Fangs, Deathwing and Baal Preds, but could mix and match them as you pleased. Black Templar players must know how we feel by now as they have just become a line of text in a wider codex that now no longer FEELS like it's fluff suggests it should.
I sadly sold my Alpha Legion at the end of 5th after realising I will never be able to play it the same way anymore. The only way I would go back to playing 40k is if I joined a nice gaming group who let me adapt the 3.5 ed codex to play in a way that I find enjoyable. Alas as a person that relied on pick up games and combined with sky high prices, it's unlikely I would invest in a new army because I would never again get to field an army in the way that I used to love.
It's not about wanting the impossible. It's about experiencing a rich diverse army and then having it taken away and replaced with something that feels entirely different to play and then being told not to complain because we have a broken unit that makes the codex viable.
ChazSexington wrote: I'd love getting the legions' tactics sorted out properly, but it does seem like at least ForgeWorld takes it seriously.
Tbh though, I find CSM quite competitive. I've never been completely pounded, and my army features the DV Chosen and Chaos Lord.
The main advantage I've always seen in Chaos is largely their infantry. A CSM squad with a Sergeant packing a power fist and equipped with two meltaguns may not look like much, but they're going to hurt the enemy pretty bad when they ride up to their vehicles and blow them apart. The only real disadvantage of Chaos is how damn pricy a squad can get. IIRC, doesn't a fully buffed CSM squad end up costing more than a stripped down Predator?
The only real grief I have with Chaos is the lack of a fluffy Codex with fluffy rules. But it's not like they're a horrible army, just average like Space Marines.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
The main advantage I've always seen in Chaos is largely their infantry. A CSM squad with a Sergeant packing a power fist and equipped with two meltaguns may not look like much, but they're going to hurt the enemy pretty bad when they ride up to their vehicles and blow them apart. The only real disadvantage of Chaos is how damn pricy a squad can get. IIRC, doesn't a fully buffed CSM squad end up costing more than a stripped down Predator?
A tooled CSM squad will cost 3-4 times as much as a stripped down predator.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/02 15:44:49
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
ChazSexington wrote: I'd love getting the legions' tactics sorted out properly, but it does seem like at least ForgeWorld takes it seriously.
Tbh though, I find CSM quite competitive. I've never been completely pounded, and my army features the DV Chosen and Chaos Lord.
The main advantage I've always seen in Chaos is largely their infantry. A CSM squad with a Sergeant packing a power fist and equipped with two meltaguns may not look like much, but they're going to hurt the enemy pretty bad when they ride up to their vehicles and blow them apart. The only real disadvantage of Chaos is how damn pricy a squad can get. IIRC, doesn't a fully buffed CSM squad end up costing more than a stripped down Predator?
The only real grief I have with Chaos is the lack of a fluffy Codex with fluffy rules. But it's not like they're a horrible army, just average like Space Marines.
Chaos Space Marines are almost all infantry so surely that's their advantage. But as I said earlier, it's mainly just different flavors of the exact same infantry unit (the basic CSM). Every infantry unit with higher costs is just this basic troop unit with extra powers. Jump packs, anti-armor weapons, melee bonuses, sorcerers, ignores cover, tons of lascannons, whatever... heck even the Obliterators are just retooled space marines, they just get a lot more for their cost and are actually worth it.
The issue with being a mostly space marine army is that they don't get the perks of the real space marines, like ATSKNF. Our champions are also required to start challenges so any big scary units will end up destroying our HQs and leaders, resulting in even more morale failures. This isn't a fearless army of juggernauts that march to the terminator's drum, they're just a pack of marginally useful, extremely over-costed space marines without the main Space Marine advantage!
Where we really differentiate is in the vehicles. Our stuff is daemon/machine hybrids with characteristics of both. Problem is they really aren't that great.
The 7th Edition FAQ is out!
Pink Horrors can summon.
Daemon Factory is legal!
NathanD298 wrote:So I'm guessing now is a bad time to have just started a Chaos Space Marine army.......
Yeah. A very bad time, as it turns out. I jumped on the CSM bandwagon at 6th ed, and while I'm having a blast painting and modeling, I'm absolutely loathe to playing games now because 1: I don't have a vault filled with Swiss chocolates, German Gold and African diamonds and 2: Even if I had someone take it down to my level, they'll still crush me outright, without me so much as even getting Linebreaker. Granted, I don't have the best army in life, but gddmn, I should be able to at least entertain a game of someone equivalent when they show up, and I can't!
lord_blackfang wrote:
NathanD298 wrote: So I'm guessing now is a bad time to have just started a Chaos Space Marine army.......
Well, if you weren't around in the good old days, you might be okay simply because you don't know what you're missing.
Wasn't around during the "good old days" and I still know what I'm missing. It's called Plasma Cannons. >< I know I'm one-noting Plasma Cannons today, but seriously, if you can't even give CSM plasma cannons (or twin linked bolter guns ftm) then I can't believe there is any sort of balance or playability in an army that is almost identical, even when they're not supposed to be.
NathanD298 wrote: So I'm guessing now is a bad time to have just started a Chaos Space Marine army.......
Well, if you weren't around in the good old days, you might be okay simply because you don't know what you're missing.
Unless they look at Horus Heresy legion lists by mistake.
Did that too and was driven even deeper into the madness of the Eye of Terror. Now where the hell did I put that Volkite. ;>>
Wyzilla wrote:
ChazSexington wrote: I'd love getting the legions' tactics sorted out properly, but it does seem like at least ForgeWorld takes it seriously.
Tbh though, I find CSM quite competitive. I've never been completely pounded, and my army features the DV Chosen and Chaos Lord.
The main advantage I've always seen in Chaos is largely their infantry. A CSM squad with a Sergeant packing a power fist and equipped with two meltaguns may not look like much, but they're going to hurt the enemy pretty bad when they ride up to their vehicles and blow them apart. The only real disadvantage of Chaos is how damn pricy a squad can get. IIRC, doesn't a fully buffed CSM squad end up costing more than a stripped down Predator?
The only real grief I have with Chaos is the lack of a fluffy Codex with fluffy rules. But it's not like they're a horrible army, just average like Space Marines.
Except Space Marines aren't average. They get Chapter Tactics and Drop Pods that don't crash and all of this other b.s. that the Legions had as well. So, that statement really makes Chaos fall that much lower beneath the Loyalists.
ChazSexington wrote: I'd love getting the legions' tactics sorted out properly, but it does seem like at least ForgeWorld takes it seriously.
Tbh though, I find CSM quite competitive. I've never been completely pounded, and my army features the DV Chosen and Chaos Lord.
The main advantage I've always seen in Chaos is largely their infantry. A CSM squad with a Sergeant packing a power fist and equipped with two meltaguns may not look like much, but they're going to hurt the enemy pretty bad when they ride up to their vehicles and blow them apart. The only real disadvantage of Chaos is how damn pricy a squad can get. IIRC, doesn't a fully buffed CSM squad end up costing more than a stripped down Predator?
The only real grief I have with Chaos is the lack of a fluffy Codex with fluffy rules. But it's not like they're a horrible army, just average like Space Marines.
Chaos Space Marines are almost all infantry so surely that's their advantage. But as I said earlier, it's mainly just different flavors of the exact same infantry unit (the basic CSM). Every infantry unit with higher costs is just this basic troop unit with extra powers. Jump packs, anti-armor weapons, melee bonuses, sorcerers, ignores cover, tons of lascannons, whatever... heck even the Obliterators are just retooled space marines, they just get a lot more for their cost and are actually worth it.
The issue with being a mostly space marine army is that they don't get the perks of the real space marines, like ATSKNF. Our champions are also required to start challenges so any big scary units will end up destroying our HQs and leaders, resulting in even more morale failures. This isn't a fearless army of juggernauts that march to the terminator's drum, they're just a pack of marginally useful, extremely over-costed space marines without the main Space Marine advantage!
Where we really differentiate is in the vehicles. Our stuff is daemon/machine hybrids with characteristics of both. Problem is they really aren't that great.
Problem is NOTHING CSM's get is "that great." They're all hand-me-downs from the Loyalists, and we can't even get all the hand-me-downs we should. I revert to our duct-tape bolters and plasma cannons that Space Marines can hold, but Chaos Space Marines can't. How many different dreadnaughts do the Loyalists get? Let's roll call.
Dreadnaught. Iron-Clad Dreadnaught. Psy-Naught.
What does Chaos have? Oh we don't. Scratch that, we got the red-headed step child of the Dreadnaught, the Helbrute. Basically a Dreadnaught that was dropped on its head and had its armor wrenched off. Gtfo...
"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists.
mk2 wrote: I won with CSM late in 6th (I have played for 24 years and travel...get on a plane....to go to big tournaments , so i take the competitive scene seriously)
The only thing that stopped me cold was daemon flying circus loaded up with terrify and puppet master. 2 things i am not worried about in 7th but currently I am playing GK and have not revisited this list, IMHO its still competitive.
Let's see...
Typhus? Check Walking Dead Zerg? Check 3x Heldrakes? Check Maxed oblits with MoN? Check Plague Marines? Check
Lists like that are part of the issue. It's competitive, yes, but it's also only a single god and a specific style that most Chaos players don't want. Hell even if you were a die-hard Death Guard fan you would not want to field that garbage, because it's not even Death Guard. It's zombie spam with a bone thrown to Death Guard. That barely qualifies as a Chaos list.
I'm going to repost this here from the "What's so bad about 6e Chaos" thread. Caution its LONG with lots of quotes that might make veterans teary-eyed with memories:
Spoiler:
Here are some quotes from White Dwarf #199, August 1996, the issue when the 2nd edition Chaos Codex was released. Although it didn't have legion rules, IMO the 2nd edition Chaos codex captured the feel of chaos. Things like being limited with Reaper Autocannons, MkI plasma guns, chainfists, combi-bolters and the like still gave Chaos that archaic feel.
Andy Chambers wrote: We wanted Chaos forces to have a strong theme so we looked at what had gone before and what people chose for their Chaos armies in the 1995 Warhammer 40,000 tournament. This gave us one overwhelming answer: Chaos Space Marines. Every army contained Chaos Space Marines and nearly all included daemons as well. Working with this we decided to make the main army list in Codex Chaos depict a raiding force of Chaos Space Marines from the Eye of Terror. ...
Andy Chambers wrote: ... The next things to worry about were how to make the Chaos Space Marines different from Imperial Space Marines: was it to be simply a case of different coloured power armour or something more than that? Obviously something more ...
Andy Chambers wrote: To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose.
Andy Chambers wrote: Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marine forces feel as if they had been exiled to the Eye of Terror ten millenia before the Imperium's "present" day. Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortois, ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legions' weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designes have used, gives the Chaos Space Marine miniatures a dark, archaic feel which contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist Space Marines.
Now here are some quotes from White Dwarf #274 (#273 in the US), dated October 2002, heralding the release of the 3.5 Chaos Codex, arguably an even better interpretation of the Chaos rules than the 2nd edition book.
The Codex formalizes the idea that there are nine entirely different Chaos Legions, each with its own strengths and weaknesses rather than a single homogenized force. It had become clear to me that single-Legion armies were the preference of the vast majority of Chaos players, and the response to Index Astartes was all the confirmation that was needed.
I had already developed a clear view about whether to include Cultists and other Chaos-aligned troops, such as mutants and abhumans. The name of the Codex would be Codex: Chaos Space Marines, so the whole emphasis would be on the Traitor Legions themselves. Obviously, it would have to cover Daemons, as the Chaos Space Marines have the ability to summon them. However, i saw no good reason for including Cultists other than as an Alpha Legion options (and I made sure that these were quite specialized). Cultists work best as a separate army, and there is plenty of scope for a distinct Cultist army list to be developed further.
Obliterators and Raptors, troops types new to Third Edition Warhammer 40,000, had to be examined and moved forward. Clearly, the basis was there for two excellent troop types, but they had never quite caught on. In the case of the Obliterators, they lacked the endurance or firepower that their imagery (and points value) implied. Raptors were similarly very expensive in points for what they did.
Chaos Space Marines are all, to some extent, veterans. The long war has hardened them in a way only the oldest Dreadnoughts of the loyalist Legions could understand. The new Space Marines might have their Land Speeders, multi-meltas, and plasma cannons, but the Chaos Space Marinds have experience. That hs to count for something. To represent their experiernce, I detailed a number of Veteran skills drawn mainly from campaign experience systems but also from the special skill lists that have been developed to support the Index Astartes articles. ... In this way, any Chaos Space Marine can be fielded as a Veteran with something to show for his 10,000 years of experience beyond being able to infiltrate.
That's what Chaos is about. The fact that a spammy mono-Nurgle list is competitive isn't the point here, it's that for those of us who don't want to play Nurgle, the army choices suck and even people who do like Nurgle get shafted because the competitive Nurgle list is boring tripe. It's not even a Death Guard army.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/03 02:45:27
liquidjoshi wrote:Ok, how do I play my fluffy Night Lords then?
Hellbrutes and Daemons?
Yeah, get real. God, these white knights...
The funny thing about night lords is (and iron warriors for that matter) is that they are not really "chaos" space marines. They are SM who fought on Horus' side but have not fallen to chaos and warp influence/mutations to any appreciable extent. In many ways these warpless SM are much better fit by their loyalist cousins than they are by their chaos tainted brothers. If I want to portray a night lords raiding party I would use ravenguard rules which do a great job of portraying an infiltrating SM force.
Read Storm of Iron for info on how the current Iron Warriors do things. They are very much chaos worshippers they just don't devote themselves to a single patron. Heck, their warsmith turned into a daemon prince and they are very much into daemon engines.
While it is harder to do some of the legions justice, its not difficult to do some of them, they just aren't as competitive as CSM players want them to be. I believe someone was complaining about not being able to build Death guard....and I have to ask, "Why can't you?". Nurgle marines are the best in the book so it really should not be a problem to build a solid DG army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 03:03:55
I don't think it's quite that. It's more of the.... I can't truly make a DG army. The Plague Marines are DG and Typh' is DG but zombies? Nurgle Terminators? Etc? They aren't truly DG. They are more akin to zombies and some random Nurgle warband that tagged along for the ride.
As for what warband you can make a really decent representation.... Nurgle warband for sure. Emperor's Children and Death Guard are probably the easiest legions to represent but even then they are a bit flawed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 03:15:30
I want to use Khorne Berzerkers without having to pray i can do enough damage on turn 1 so that they dont get bogged down for 3 turns.
I want to use the World Eaters Berzerker Terminators, 1/4 ton axe wielding monstrosities that hack through anything they can run down.
I want the fury-filled dreadnoughts the legion had, which brought fear into their bother-legions even before the heresy.
I want the most veteran of the Caedere charging around on the battlefield astride the great Juggernaughts they have inevitably tamed by this point.
I want my Chaos Lords to be the most terrifying CC characters in the game. Sewing death and destruction while in a trance-like state of cold, focused rage.
I want Khârn to remember where he left his artificer armour and iron halo.
... ... ...
Turns out I want a WE heresy legion list... feth me C:CSM is depressing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 04:02:13
Actually, you could also field a decent Iron Warriors army now, but you need their battle tactics and honestly, I don't think the Fists cut it. Their tactic is re-rolling bolter shots, right?
Well, the Iron Warriors laugh at bolter shots, seeing as how their warpsmiths are pretty much a brain and metal. So trait wise, I'm thinking bonus' to vindicator shells and unique armor formations. Maybe expand their FOC.
Representing them is pretty easy too but they need the rules to keep them strong. Iron Within, iron Without.
"Well there's something I've been meaning to tell you about the college on the edge of the town. No one should ever go there. You know it's bad, bad, bad. It gets worse every school year, but man those freaking teachers are raaaaad! Yea-YEAH-yeah yeah." -Babycakes - China, Il.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/559359.page#6178253 <--Link to my CSM Army lists.
StarTrotter wrote: I don't think it's quite that. It's more of the.... I can't truly make a DG army. The Plague Marines are DG and Typh' is DG but zombies? Nurgle Terminators? Etc? They aren't truly DG. They are more akin to zombies and some random Nurgle warband that tagged along for the ride.
As for what warband you can make a really decent representation.... Nurgle warband for sure. Emperor's Children and Death Guard are probably the easiest legions to represent but even then they are a bit flawed.
Ironically you are right, the zombies are purely part of Typhus plague, who is by that point renegade.
I was SOOOOO excited for the Unbound rules until I found out that AM is 'Come the Apocalypse' with CSM. That really throws a huge spanner in the works for me.
Ditto. I was going to take some Russes as HS, and shove my PM's into chimeras.
Cover everything in nurglitch goop, and call it a plague host. Fluff-tastic.
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