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Last Monday I shipped my last GW army in my possession after spending two months clearing out 22 years of GW stuff. All told, I made a little over $9,000.
Of that, I helped increase Corvus Belli's coffers by $6,500 and have been having a ball playing a real wargame made by a company that gives a s***.
Last Monday I shipped my last GW army in my possession after spending two months clearing out 22 years of GW stuff. All told, I made a little over $9,000.
Of that, I helped increase Corvus Belli's coffers by $6,500 and have been having a ball playing a real wargame made by a company that gives a s***.
How's that for positive thoughts?
Great, now go say that in the right section (I.E not the 40k one )
Which would solve a HUGE part of the problem.
Thats some pretty decent cash there too by the way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/07 23:29:30
Swastakowey wrote: If the anti negativity ends the negativity will still be around.
Which is only a problem if you see that negativity as a problem, rather than just as the other side of the discussion...
If you dont like being labelled as a hater, then why not eliminate any reason for you to be called one?
Because on a forum where the primary rule is to be polite and treat other posters with respect, it's not reasonable to expect someone to refrain from sharing their opinion for fear of being insulted?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/07 23:31:23
Swastakowey wrote: Really? Because I frequently see those who enjoy the game labelled as "liking nothing more than garbage" or "with scarily low standards" etc.
Thats like saying someone who enjoys french Fries likes nothing more than killing themselves and clearly needs to eat chemical free apples as a treat instead and then saying they must have low standards because they arent willing to eat the logically better food item. Especially on a forum where the majority are wanting to talk about enjoying french fries.
Its on both sides. Just one side seems to be waaaaay too dedicated to be considered healthy. I wouldnt say any criticism is called out as hating, just the constant criticism that is often repeated from that thread 10 minutes ago. Hence why the term whining is often used, as whining is constant and repetitive.
Why not go to warmachine threads and talk about that instead, if you spent as much time talking about how much you love warmachine in that area as you do talking about how much you enjoy not playing 40k in the 40k area, maybe you would create a more positive image of yourself and not be subject to this retaliation.
I do it because there too much misunderstanding as to why people have criticisms. I've been frustrated by people that refuse to understand why I left GW. They say that I hate 40k or nothing will ever satisfy me or whatever. They don't listen to arguments and only reply with "whiners" and "go away." Honestly, if I felt that people understood, I wouldn't need to keep saying the same points several times.
That's personal thing with me. I'm sure others have other reasons for doing what they do.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
Swastakowey wrote: Really? Because I frequently see those who enjoy the game labelled as "liking nothing more than garbage" or "with scarily low standards" etc.
Thats like saying someone who enjoys french Fries likes nothing more than killing themselves and clearly needs to eat chemical free apples as a treat instead and then saying they must have low standards because they arent willing to eat the logically better food item. Especially on a forum where the majority are wanting to talk about enjoying french fries.
Its on both sides. Just one side seems to be waaaaay too dedicated to be considered healthy. I wouldnt say any criticism is called out as hating, just the constant criticism that is often repeated from that thread 10 minutes ago. Hence why the term whining is often used, as whining is constant and repetitive.
Why not go to warmachine threads and talk about that instead, if you spent as much time talking about how much you love warmachine in that area as you do talking about how much you enjoy not playing 40k in the 40k area, maybe you would create a more positive image of yourself and not be subject to this retaliation.
I do it because there too much misunderstanding as to why people have criticisms. I've been frustrated by people that refuse to understand why I left GW. They say that I hate 40k or nothing will ever satisfy me or whatever. They don't listen to arguments and only reply with "whiners" and "go away." Honestly, if I felt that people understood, I wouldn't need to keep saying the same points several times.
That's personal thing with me. I'm sure others have other reasons for doing what they do.
I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
Just consider this. Has the constant negativity actually changed anything? If not, try something else. Otherwise you will get the same result. If you are happy with the current results of the negativity, then by all means keep at it. If not, maybe try doing something else with your time OR try doing it differently. You know this, you sold your army and got a better result (an enjoyable game). Unless you have fun spending forum time arguing with those who are trying to or are enjoying 40k, well then... yea.
Swastakowey wrote: Great, now go say that in the right section (I.E not the 40k one )
Which would solve a HUGE part of the problem.
This is the dakka discussion section, not the 40k section.
The problem lies with the 40k section. I probably should have clarified that people would not mind if that kind of stuff was kept to the right forum rather than leaking into the 40k one etc etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/07 23:51:14
Given how often it's mischaracterised, that seems unlikely.
But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too.
When you keep goint to talk to him about how the new edition is great, or that the new ork codex removed a bunch of units, it'd be very relevant for him to tell you his opinions on that, why would he just sit there and listen to you talk about how good it is? That's not a conversation. It's easily fixed by not talking to him about it - just like it's easily fixed by not going into threads asking for opinions. If the thread asks for opinions, both positive and negative are relevant aren't they? If only positive were acceptable what would be the point in the discussion?
Swastakowey wrote: The problem lies with the 40k section. I probably should have clarified that people would not mind if that kind of stuff was kept to the right forum rather than leaking into the 40k one etc etc.
It belongs in the 40k section too. Someone leaving the hobby after 22 years because he thinks it's gone to hell and the competition is now better is pretty relevant discussion to 40k.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/07/07 23:59:10
Yonan wrote: It belongs in the 40k section too. Someone leaving the hobby after 22 years because he thinks it's gone to hell and the competition is now better is pretty relevant discussion to 40k.
Every day? For years? Surely people have better things to do... Like go onto the new product section and talk about it there... You know instead of "why I hate GW" go in the 40k forum, go "why I love "insert whatever here" in the relevant section. It was done a month or so ago and it was great. So keep making those instead.
If it was just one person sure - it's not. It's many people, that's the problem. The game is so bad now that lots of people are posting about how bad it is, hence all the posts. Some of us post more than others though ; p If me posting negative things is bad, please find one of my posts in 40k general being negative about GW that weren't relevant to the topic. If someone asks about how good 40k is? I'll tell them what I think, good and bad. If someone asks for opinions about 7th, I'll tell them it's a clusterfeth. If someone asks about the Ork codex, I'll say I dislike the format and the removal of units and the day one dlc shenanigans.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/08 00:02:33
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Read above:
"Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough"
Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Read above:
"Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough"
Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Well, when people stop saying that they like GW, I'll stop saying that I don't. Fair deal?
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Read above:
"Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough"
Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Is that any different then you coming on here and repeating your willful ignorance?
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Read above:
"Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough"
Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Well, when people stop saying that they like GW, I'll stop saying that I don't. Fair deal?
Its not up to me. Ask someone else. Why is it so offensive for someone to like GW that you need to make sure they know why they should hate it? Just leave them in peace to do their own thing.
Im not saying stop completely (never have), I mean, even I, Swastakowey the White Knight (apparently), complain about many things. But its not everywhere and its not all the time.
I hate GW models and fluff. A lot. I hate GW prices etc. But at the end of the day, thats there and there is no need to keep pushing it.
If anything, what we need is not a positive Dakka Week. But an ignore those you dont want to hear from week. Imagine how much better dakka would be if you simply ignored those who enjoy GW games for whatever reason (good luck, your list will be long) and we can quickly ignore those who love to hate GW for whatever reason. There would be little for either group to complain about.
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Read above:
"Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough"
Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Is that any different then you coming on here and repeating your willful ignorance?
What willful ignorance? List them, because more often than not I agree with the haters dude. GW does suck. Im just not a broken record about it yet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/08 01:40:58
Swastakowey wrote: Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Is it really worth suggesting the same brands of glue and paint every week because someone new posted a question in P&M?
Here's the thing about forums: The same discussions happen over, and over, and over again.
So long-term forum goers tend to wind up in four groups: There's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who leave. There's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who stick around but just stop reading those threads about things that they're not interested in any more. There's those who are happy to keep discussing the same stuff over and over again... And then there's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who then start insisting that people should just stop talking about the stuff that they personally don't want to talk about...
One of those groups tends to be unhappy with the ongoing experience.
Ignoring anyone in a discussion who doesn't agree with you is the worst thing you can possibly do unless you want a group think mentality to take over so you can spend all day agreeing with everyone.
Its not healthy for any sort of meaningful discussion in any way.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Well The positive thing from GW's current and recent policies is that they created or are partly responsible for all those similar games that have sprung up over the last years, i wonder how many players changed from BFG to X-wing, Necromunda to Deadzone/Melefic/etcetera, epic to dropzone commander etcetera. (that and kickstarter helps off course )
Swastakowey wrote: . Why is it so offensive for someone to like GW that you need to make sure they know why they should hate it?
You're building it into a bigger thing than it actually is, here.
It's not 'offensive' for someone to have a different opinion. But if you're in a discussion with someone, and they mention that they like something that you don't, mentioning that you don't like that thing isn't exactly out of line. It's how discussion works.
jonolikespie wrote: Ignoring anyone in a discussion who doesn't agree with you is the worst thing you can possibly do unless you want a group think mentality to take over so you can spend all day agreeing with everyone.
Its not healthy for any sort of meaningful discussion in any way.
No, but wouldnt ideas be better than the usual "GW sucks and needs to be sacked" we usually hear.
Someone has an idea to make the game interesting and most of the group simply goes "thats GW job not mine!" and continue to put them down etc. Id rather threads talk of improving the game experience rather than simply pass the blame off elsewhere and keep that blame as the topic of discussion. I personally would rather people talk about how to create interesting scenarios to play on the table top, things that may actually help improve the gaming situation. You could argue that telling them how bad it is helps improve their experience haha, but it should be a last resort in my opinion. Better to look forward and improve rather than linger and waste time.
insaniak is right, its a forum and things are repeated weekly. I guess ill be one of the group that gets sick of it and moves on one day.
Oh well. Thats me done.
I still support a "try see the positives/solutions mentality week".
Swastakowey wrote: Someone has an idea to make the game interesting and most of the group simply goes "thats GW job not mine!" and continue to put them down etc.
If the discussion is about ideas to make the game more interesting, then such comments would be off-topic and should be reported so they can be removed.
In a discussion about, say, the current state of the rules, comments like that would be more relevant.
Id rather threads talk of improving the game experience rather than simply pass the blame off elsewhere and keep that blame as the topic of discussion.
So participate in those sorts of threads instead of threads complaining about the state of the game.
Positive thinking: I'm hoping that people will actually read, and understand why others are dissatisfied with Games Workshop and not insult them and tell them to shut up. That would be a positive change. I'm also positive that I will get decent money for selling my Word Bearers.
While they are singing "what a friend we have in the greater good", we are bringing the pain!
So long-term forum goers tend to wind up in four groups: There's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who leave. There's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who stick around but just stop reading those threads about things that they're not interested in any more. There's those who are happy to keep discussing the same stuff over and over again... And then there's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who then start insisting that people should just stop talking about the stuff that they personally don't want to talk about...
One of those groups tends to be unhappy with the ongoing experience.
This I always hate it when people post "this thread again" . I just hope those posters realise that not everyone has their sense of perception and experiences and some people discussing "this thread again" may not have discussed it before. You know, other people have had a different experience to what you experience, ground breaking thought that.
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
I'm pretty sure we'd get a much more positive 40k general if GW:
- improved the internal and external balance of 40k. This would fix a good majority of complaints imo. The rest of the bollocks can be overlooked to an extent.
- Greatly improved their pricing and value in a number of areas. Reduced prices across the board by 20-40%. Reduced reliance on "pay more for less" dataslates. No more calling minor supplements with either no new units, or 1-2 new units as "codices". No more "day one DLC" cut form products. Regional pricing has to go.
- Improve the base rules substantially, no more lateral shifts, the game needs substantial steps forward in useability and readability. Making close combat and ranged combat both workable is important for the balance mentioned above, as is ensuring foot troops, vehicles and walkers of all kinds, MCs and flyers are reworked to a cohesive system.
- Maintain the new speed of releases, but ensure they are substantial refinements over previous works in fluff, art and rules. Ensure they are playtested, preferably with access to outsiders, and listen to their feedback.
- If you want to really push the forge a narrative, actually include good systems to encourage this and we'll stop taking the piss out of you for it. Include good campaign rule systems and ways to structure battles to follow themes.
- Re-open communication channels with customers and listen to their feedback.
I guess "positive" things to write about seem useless.
It could be a means of saying to GW "Please do not change this! The following things in your rule-base is good, spend your energy elsewhere."
It tends to not further discussion other than "I agree!!" or back into negativity.
I thought submitting new ideas or improvements is a means of being positive: offering things in the spirit of being helpful (just avoid the trap of "this is garbage....").
Continuous improvement is a methodology for successful businesses, a constant means of dissatisfaction with the status quo.
Mistaking "hate" for a genuine attempt to voice where we think our loved games are going wrong is rather sad.
I guess I fail to see how being positive will bring about change for genuine feelings of happiness.
I guess the rule "Change what is within your power to do so, change your mind for things you cannot." is applicable here.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Swastakowey wrote: I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
The painting forums are the least negative forums on Dakka as well as the 40k Army List forum, so I find "there's negatively elsewhere than where my friends are interested, so that's why they're not here!" to be very, very flimsy.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
I only skim the painting forums, but the list building is probably one of the most constructive forums here. No one argues list details or units or the game there because that's the not the purpose.
I would still help people if we were in 6E and my question, if not stated, was what the goal of the list was.
I myself would prefer a "No Toxicity Week", not a "Silence the Dissenters Week".
The Kool-Aid Man is NOT cool! He's a public menace, DESTROYING walls and buildings so he can pour his sugary juice out for people!"- Linkara on the Kool-Aid Man
htj wrote:I break my conscripts down into squads of ten, then equip them with heavy weapons and special weapons. I pay 1pt to upgrade their WS, BS and Ld, then combine them into larger squads when deployed. I've found them to be quite effective.
Kilkrazy wrote: I would not necessarily remove a post because it is pointless (the meaning of pointless being judged by moderators, presumably.)
First off it is sometimes too much work.
Secondly, but more importantly, DakkaDakka moderation policy is to delete the minimum necessary so that we can preserve the integrity of the site's records of people's conversations.
I guess I've seen enough "stay on topic" reminder posts and red text to assume that mods here do indeed cull off topic stuff when requested. I guess it's a case by case basis.
It is as you say on a case by case basis. If some offending piece of text has been copied and quoted into a lot of following posts it may be too much work to edit it all, so the thread might be locked or in extreme cases deleted or moved into the Moderator forum.
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Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
