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I like the idea, I do.

But when suggesting this, remember that a normal wargamer, mixed with one part anonymity and one part public forum usually turns out amplified bitching. Table top gamer's are inherently critical of everything, so when you give the more vocal ones a way to voice their criticisms, they will.

Although, it'd be nice to see General without a thread titled: 'Why GW sucks and how these other companies are better' or some derivation thereof.

 Frankenberry wrote:
I like the idea, I do.

But when suggesting this, remember that a normal wargamer, mixed with one part anonymity and one part public forum usually turns out amplified bitching. Table top gamer's are inherently critical of everything, so when you give the more vocal ones a way to voice their criticisms, they will.

Although, it'd be nice to see General without a thread titled: 'Why GW sucks and how these other companies are better' or some derivation thereof.

It'd be nice if Games Workshop was at least feature parity with those other companies. That'd be a positive start.

 Frankenberry wrote:
But when suggesting this, remember that a normal wargamer, mixed with one part anonymity and one part public forum usually turns out amplified bitching. Table top gamer's are inherently critical of everything, so when you give the more vocal ones a way to voice their criticisms, they will.

This is not true. The forums for X-Wing (my other game) are much less negative, and most of the criticism that does exist is focused on specific (relatively minor) issues rather than "FFG SUCKS" rants. The problem here isn't the people, it's the subject of the discussion.

Although, it'd be nice to see General without a thread titled: 'Why GW sucks and how these other companies are better' or some derivation thereof.

I agree. I would love to have a world in which GW stopped doing the things that generate those threads and we could all be happy. Unfortunately that isn't happening, and as long as GW continues to suck we will get "GW sucks" threads.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
But when suggesting this, remember that a normal wargamer, mixed with one part anonymity and one part public forum usually turns out amplified bitching. Table top gamer's are inherently critical of everything, so when you give the more vocal ones a way to voice their criticisms, they will.

This is not true. The forums for X-Wing (my other game) are much less negative, and most of the criticism that does exist is focused on specific (relatively minor) issues rather than "FFG SUCKS" rants. The problem here isn't the people, it's the subject of the discussion.

Although, it'd be nice to see General without a thread titled: 'Why GW sucks and how these other companies are better' or some derivation thereof.

I agree. I would love to have a world in which GW stopped doing the things that generate those threads and we could all be happy. Unfortunately that isn't happening, and as long as GW continues to suck we will get "GW sucks" threads.

Well, sadly this is more so the exception rather than the rule.

I suppose that means that we need a new thread every one to two weeks telling us how GW's business model is poorly thought out and how their models are expensive? I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?

 AesSedai wrote:
I think the 40k subforum being a a cesspool of rancorous, vitriolic rantings is great. I hate what GW has become. Clearly, I'm not the only one. It's great to be reminded that hobbyists can be critical and discerning.

I don't need think positive week, if i want a laugh I go to the 40k forums and read a few arguments. If this positive week thing happened where would I get my funnies?

Bullockist wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
I think the 40k subforum being a a cesspool of rancorous, vitriolic rantings is great. I hate what GW has become. Clearly, I'm not the only one. It's great to be reminded that hobbyists can be critical and discerning.

I don't need think positive week, if i want a laugh I go to the 40k forums and read a few arguments. If this positive week thing happened where would I get my funnies?

From the "positive" hand waiving?

 Frankenberry wrote:
I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?

Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?

There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.

We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.

 insaniak wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?

Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?

There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.

We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.

See this is where I disagree, I am very down on GW, but I don't endlessly go on about it, because surely our life is defined by our hobby do's not our hobby dont's. I can drip my tits off with the best of them about GW, but I try to find what I do like and focus on that, because that is how the world works surely?

I don't collect stamps, go bird-spotting, sew, practice the violin, or base jump. I don't feel the need to go on forums about those hobbies and endlessly, and I mean endlessly, piss and whine and cry and insult people that do.

Its what put me at odds with the haters when I first got on here about 5 years ago. I rocked up and saw some bloke saying he liked a model, only to be greeted by the usual suspects (everyone knows their names) ripping the piss out of the bloke, and they were doing it like picking at someone in a pub, all LOLs for each others jokes, bro-fist memes, the fething lot.

Its fething pathetic. If you utterly despise GW, then utterly ignore them forever, I despise plenty of things, funny thing I don't find a forum all about those things and rip the piss out of people that do like it.

There are plenty of things wrong with GW, bucket loads, so I try to buy as little as possible and concentrate on what I do like. I don't mind a bit of criticism, but all the back-slapping and bullying fills me with revulsion, because I imagine a man in his thirties on the other end of the keyboard and it makes me shiver with shame.

Would be nice, but i think alot of people get alot of pleasure thriving of the drama.

The hobby as a whole is expensive and their's alot of gaps in alot of the rulesets out there.

People just feel the need to reinforce both those points, constantly, in every thread, about every game.

then create and thrive of the drama that ensues, its very childish and increasing in many forums that i frequeunt, i find myself ever increasingly not interested in looking or participating in forums anymore.

 mattyrm wrote:
See this is where I disagree, I am very down on GW, but I don't endlessly go on about it, because surely our life is defined by our hobby do's not our hobby dont's. I can drip my tits off with the best of them about GW, but I try to find what I do like and focus on that, because that is how the world works surely?

My life isn't defined by my hobby at all. My hobby is something that I choose to do in my spare time.

...endlessly, piss and whine and cry and insult people that do.

Its what put me at odds with the haters ...

That right there is more likely what 'put you at odds' with people. DIsmissing a contrary opinion as 'whining' or just labelling people as 'haters' because they don't like something you do doesn't promote civil discussion.


Once again, if you're seeing discussions that you don't want to be a part of, move on. If you would rather talk about something positive, then talk about something positive.


The problem isn't that people complain. The problem is that people complain, and other people insist that the complainers should just shut up because they don't want to read the complaints instead of just going and engaging in discussion that they are interested in.

If you utterly despise GW, then utterly ignore them forever, I despise plenty of things, funny thing I don't find a forum all about those things and rip the piss out of people that do like it.

Is there no middle ground in your world, where someone can see faults in a product while still enjoying it?

I'm here because I'm a wargamer. I discuss 40K because it's a game that I have been playing for 20 years now, and that I still at times enjoy. There are a number of things however that I dislike about the current state of the game, and about the company that produces it... and in a thread discussing those things, I'll post my opinion if I feel so inclined... because that's what a discussion is for.

 insaniak wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
See this is where I disagree, I am very down on GW, but I don't endlessly go on about it, because surely our life is defined by our hobby do's not our hobby dont's. I can drip my tits off with the best of them about GW, but I try to find what I do like and focus on that, because that is how the world works surely?

My life isn't defined by my hobby at all. My hobby is something that I choose to do in my spare time.

...endlessly, piss and whine and cry and insult people that do.

Its what put me at odds with the haters ...

That right there is more likely what 'put you at odds' with people. DIsmissing a contrary opinion as 'whining' or just labelling people as 'haters' because they don't like something you do doesn't promote civil discussion.


Once again, if you're seeing discussions that you don't want to be a part of, move on. If you would rather talk about something positive, then talk about something positive.


The problem isn't that people complain. The problem is that people complain, and other people insist that the complainers should just shut up because they don't want to read the complaints instead of just going and engaging in discussion that they are interested in.

If you utterly despise GW, then utterly ignore them forever, I despise plenty of things, funny thing I don't find a forum all about those things and rip the piss out of people that do like it.

Is there no middle ground in your world, where someone can see faults in a product while still enjoying it?

I'm here because I'm a wargamer. I discuss 40K because it's a game that I have been playing for 20 years now, and that I still at times enjoy. There are a number of things however that I dislike about the current state of the game, and about the company that produces it... and in a thread discussing those things, I'll post my opinion if I feel so inclined... because that's what a discussion is for.

The first point was needless pedantry because you know exactly what I mean, as for the rest, obviously I entirely agree with you. You basically said exactly what I did.

There is a big difference between having a bit of a gripe, and fully dripping your tits off constantly. For years.

The occasional bit of a gripe, I, and many others do all the time about GW and that is fine, I specifically mentioned the needless attacks and relentless negativity, clearly anyone who reads this knows who and what I am talking about, so lets just leave it at that. The majority of posters do not cross the line into ridiculousness, but those that do entirely deserve a moniker.

If you are going to accuse people of pissing and whining I wouldn't recommend complaining about the negativity as it's a little hypocritical. As is dismissing anyone who dislikes GW as a hater and as is dismissing the people who support GW as sheep or idiots.

Keep in mind when discussing with others the following

Insults rarely help the situation
Being critical is not the same as being negative
Acting gakky towards people is the best way to ensure they act gakky back to you.
You don't always have to agree or win a disagreement you can make your case and agree to disagree
Someone disliking your chosen game does mean they dislike you and critique or insults towards the game are not insults towards you
When complaining or critiquing a game don't act like everyone who plays it is an idiot
Most importantly, we are talking about toy soldiers on the internet, try not to take it to seriously or too personally.

 insaniak wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?

Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?

There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.

We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.

There's a difference between what you just listed and the same group of people posting the same negative gak, but apparently it's all the same under the 'we want to talk about what we want to talk about' rule.

And I'm aware of my thread viewing abilities, thanks.

Edit: When you display your opinions publicly be prepared to offer up some sort of reason for why you think/said/wrote what you did. I'm not saying people are wrong when they complain, only that does having a negative view on the topic justify constant spam about it?

 Frankenberry wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?

Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?

There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.

We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.

There's a difference between what you just listed and the same group of people posting the same negative gak, but apparently it's all the same under the 'we want to talk about what we want to talk about' rule.

And I'm aware of my thread viewing abilities, thanks.

Edit: When you display your opinions publicly be prepared to offer up some sort of reason for why you think/said/wrote what you did. I'm not saying people are wrong when they complain, only that does having a negative view on the topic justify constant spam about it?

And again, it's the "shut up and stop complaining or leave" crowd that tends to be the most hostile and devolve into insults and flaming, not the "negativity" crowd that complain about GW.

 mattyrm wrote:
The first point was needless pedantry because you know exactly what I mean,...

No, apparently I don't.

It's not just about the threads which are started and purely use for critism or opinion on the company that makes the product, or the product itself

But the constant injection of criticism,complaining and negativity into almost every thread from news and rumours to fluff discussions.

For example in the flames of war discussions, there are a few individuals which feel the need to inject their opinions of the game into irrelevant discussions which have nothing to do with the state of the game or the company.

same goes for almost every GW oriented sub category.

It's rather unwholesome, and frankly unnecessary the constant negativity. Yes we all have a right to state our opinions but is it really necessary?

Which i think is a question everyone has to ask themselves is it neccesary? in every thread, all the time.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?

Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?

There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.

We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.

There's a difference between what you just listed and the same group of people posting the same negative gak, but apparently it's all the same under the 'we want to talk about what we want to talk about' rule.

And I'm aware of my thread viewing abilities, thanks.

Edit: When you display your opinions publicly be prepared to offer up some sort of reason for why you think/said/wrote what you did. I'm not saying people are wrong when they complain, only that does having a negative view on the topic justify constant spam about it?

And again, it's the "shut up and stop complaining or leave" crowd that tends to be the most hostile and devolve into insults and flaming, not the "negativity" crowd that complain about GW.

Both sides act like children, it's not just one or the other. You see the same posters in 'GW sucks' threads all the time, going back and forth. One side thinks that their opinions need to be copy-pasted every time one of these rears it's ugly head and the other is tired of seeing the same comments time and time again. Is it ok to bitch? Sure is. Is it ok to bitch incessantly for years? Sure thing. But when you bitch publicly expect folks to disagree, and when you keep at it, expect people to get annoyed, ask you to stick a sock in it, and stop bad mouthing a game they perceive to be fine the way it is.

Either way, I think this thread is going to end up getting locked.

Edit: Pretty much this.

 mitch_rifle wrote:
It's not just about the threads which are started and purely use for critism or opinion on the company that makes the product, or the product itself

But the constant injection of criticism,complaining and negativity into almost every thread from news and rumours to fluff discussions.

For example in the flames of war discussions, there are a few individuals which feel the need to inject their opinions of the game into irrelevant discussions which have nothing to do with the state of the game or the company.

same goes for almost every GW oriented sub category.

It's rather unwholesome, and frankly unnecessary the constant negativity. Yes we all have a right to state our opinions but is it really necessary?

Which i think is a question everyone has to ask themselves is it neccesary? in every thread, all the time.

 Frankenberry wrote:
... But when you bitch publicly expect folks to disagree, and when you keep at it, expect people to get annoyed, ask you to stick a sock in it, and stop bad mouthing a game they perceive to be fine the way it is..

If you're getting 'annoyed' that someone dislikes something that you like, it's possible that you're taking your hobby a little too seriously, IMO.

People will complain about something as long as they perceive that thing to be deserving of complaint. If you disagree, that's totally ok... but that doesn't mean that the other person isn't entitled to share their opinion.

"Its what put me at odds with the haters when I first got on here about 5 years ago. I rocked up and saw some bloke saying he liked a model, only to be greeted by the usual suspects (everyone knows their names) ripping the piss out of the bloke, and they were doing it like picking at someone in a pub, all LOLs for each others jokes, bro-fist memes, the fething lot. "

That is definitely something I have noticed in terms of how those arguments go. Its always one or 2 people talking about why they arent that annoyed at the rules or how they still find enjoyment in the game. Then the usual suspects gang up (about 5+ of them) in a dedicated argument to rip into them. Those original 2 give up and leave, the usual group stroke each others ego's after victory, then someone else comes to say what they think in terms of enjoying the game etc, then that group repeats the process. Anyone against the whining is usually being mobbed by the same few people.

It seems to me, the people who complain constantly (the ones posters have an issue with) are simply far more dedicated to spending time and effort preaching their message than those who are sick of them. They are more passionate about hating the game, than those who like the game (to put it simply) have passion for the game.

So all the threads with those usual suspects are really just a group of people who gang up on the not so dedicated and (it seems like it) irritate the few who sporadically try talk about what they think of the game. The pattern has not changed from when I used to look on these threads years a go. Always the same (even some of the people are the same) and it gets to the point where the less dedicated simply goes "shutup" and leaves. The less dedicated tend to be those that complain in moderation (everything is healthy on moderation).

Happens all the time in real life as well.

 mitch_rifle wrote:
Which i think is a question everyone has to ask themselves is it neccesary? in every thread, all the time.

No more necessary than it is for people to talk about how much they enjoy a particular game, or about how they don't see any of the issues that people are complaining about.

 insaniak wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
... But when you bitch publicly expect folks to disagree, and when you keep at it, expect people to get annoyed, ask you to stick a sock in it, and stop bad mouthing a game they perceive to be fine the way it is..

If you're getting 'annoyed' that someone dislikes something that you like, it's possible that you're taking your hobby a little too seriously, IMO.

People will complain about something as long as they perceive that thing to be deserving of complaint. If you disagree, that's totally ok... but that doesn't mean that the other person isn't entitled to share their opinion.

Plastic mini's is srsbsns.

Never said people can't share their opinions. Just wondering why folks have to keep repeating the same gak over and over again, it's not like Dakka forget's or anything.

 Frankenberry wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?

Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?

There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.

We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.

There's a difference between what you just listed and the same group of people posting the same negative gak, but apparently it's all the same under the 'we want to talk about what we want to talk about' rule.

And I'm aware of my thread viewing abilities, thanks.

Edit: When you display your opinions publicly be prepared to offer up some sort of reason for why you think/said/wrote what you did. I'm not saying people are wrong when they complain, only that does having a negative view on the topic justify constant spam about it?

In general, people talk about the 'negative gak' because they want it to return to being 'positive gak'.

If they don't share your opinions, well, that's just their opinion man. Just like yours is just your opinion. But everyone has the right to voice it.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Just wondering why folks have to keep repeating the same gak over and over again, it's not like Dakka forget's or anything.

If it's relevant to the discussion, and they're still interested enough to participate in that discussion, why wouldn't they?

'Dakka' is not a single entity. While some of the posters remain more or less unchanging and ever-present, a discussion held this week will invariably include a certain number of people who weren't involved in the similar discussion last week, or last month. So in some cases, people are interested in sharing their viewpoint in the new discussion with new people. And in some cases it's just treading back over familiar old ground with people they've discussed it with in the past... and that comes from both 'sides' of the discussion.

 insaniak wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Just wondering why folks have to keep repeating the same gak over and over again, it's not like Dakka forget's or anything.

If it's relevant to the discussion, and they're still interested enough to participate in that discussion, why wouldn't they?

'Dakka' is not a single entity. While some of the posters remain more or less unchanging and ever-present, a discussion held this week will invariably include a certain number of people who weren't involved in the similar discussion last week, or last month. So in some cases, people are interested in sharing their viewpoint in the new discussion with new people. And in some cases it's just treading back over familiar old ground with people they've discussed it with in the past... and that comes from both 'sides' of the discussion.

If it's relevant, ok, I'll give you that.

So I guess because people want to talk about the same thing over and over again with the same caustic viewpoints, it's ok because poster's 1-27 didn't get to have their say in the last debacle of a 'lawl 'insert rule set/game/GW' is so expensive, chess is better'. Eh, ok.

Edit:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?

Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?

There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.

We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.

There's a difference between what you just listed and the same group of people posting the same negative gak, but apparently it's all the same under the 'we want to talk about what we want to talk about' rule.

And I'm aware of my thread viewing abilities, thanks.

Edit: When you display your opinions publicly be prepared to offer up some sort of reason for why you think/said/wrote what you did. I'm not saying people are wrong when they complain, only that does having a negative view on the topic justify constant spam about it?

In general, people talk about the 'negative gak' because they want it to return to being 'positive gak'.

If they don't share your opinions, well, that's just their opinion man. Just like yours is just your opinion. But everyone has the right to voice it.

I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted. Also, kittens are stupid.'. Thing is, the guys on the other side of the fence don't start out with 'get over it or shut up', they generally start with 'Ok, well, have you tried...?'. But still, the caustic bs continues unabated. Its almost like they enjoy being pissed off.

Second edit: Apparently 'the grammarz' isn't my strong suit.

As the Dakka Turns...

I think if you're negative and also don't do something on your own part to fix it, then yah, you're part of the problem. Sometimes hashing out your thoughts on a forum away from your friends and cohorts can be a healthy means of working through what you're thinking. Negativity, again, can be the reality of the situation. And the current reality of Games Workshop is grim. You can still enjoy the game, purchase models, and have a great time, but that doesn't mean they aren't drawing strong parallels to the TSR of yore.

It'd be like bringing up *Insert Political Argument based upon sound science here* and then having people argue against is just because they "believe" different or "they're just fine, so it's gotta be all okay!" Sometimes facts are facts and outcomes aren't pretty. Rationality doesn't come from being overly positive or negative, it's the ability to weigh when you should be either when it means it. If you're thousands and years deep in a hobby and you don't like it's direction, you might be cranky for a bit if it starts taking a hard turn off the course you enjoyed. And that's not "negative." That's the reflection of changes someone doesn't like and going against what they did enjoy.

Who are these "usual suspects" I keep hearing about?

 mitch_rifle wrote:
It's not just about the threads which are started and purely use for critism or opinion on the company that makes the product, or the product itself

But the constant injection of criticism,complaining and negativity into almost every thread from news and rumours to fluff discussions.

Find some examples? There's ample things in all those areas for complaints:
- news and rumours: "GW is really implementing unbound, what the feth?"
- fluff: "GW is really letting loyalist space marines summon daemons on the extremely fringe case where that would happen, but IG aren't battle brothers to represent the very common traitor guard?"
- tactics: "Because of the horrible balancing, you're penalising yourself if you take rough riders. You'll get much better mileage out of vendettas."
- New player: "You can get some fun out of 40k, but you have to try really hard as GW has done a number of ridiculous things lately. Have you considered some of these other games which we think are more fun atm for these reasons?"
- 40k background: "Blood Angels bro fisting Necrons? Draigo? GG GW."

 Frankenberry wrote:
I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted.

There's only one way to fix the problem - force GW to fix it. The only way to make GW pay attention is to hit them in the profits. We do that by encouraging others to not spend money on GW products. What your'e complaining about is us trying to fix the problem the only way we can. You then criticise us for not trying to fix the problem. Should we spend hundreds of hours for free to fix the products GW charges a ridiculous price for? Then spend thousands more getting players worldwide to adopt these fixes, encouraging GW to put even less effort in since they know we'll do their work for free while they get paid? Feth no!

Plus regardless of anything else, new players deserve to know both sides of the story. 40k is not all sunshine and rainbows - if we didn't tell each new player about the problems, they'd spend hundreds or thousands of IRL monetary units on a new hobby that they may then find out they don't like for reasons that are well known. You may be happy with that outcome, but if I can save someone some cash and a bad experience, I'll damn well do it.

 Frankenberry wrote:
I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted. Also, kittens are stupid.'. Thing is, the guys on the other side of the fence don't start out with 'get over it or shut up', they generally start with 'Ok, well, have you tried...?'. But still, the caustic bs continues unabated. Its almost like they enjoy being pissed off.

I actually tend to see the opposite. I more often see 'haters' criticise the product, and give their opinion on what would be better, and get shut down with the same old tired 'vote with your wallet'. But anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.

The fact that so many people are disgruntled, but still interested in criticising, shows that people do care. They want 40k to return to being a good game, with sane(er) prices. They get frustrated when they see people are enjoying what they perceive as a flawed game for many reasons. On the reverse, you have people enjoying the game for what it is, who don't mind the prices, and get frustrated when they see 'haters' come in and rain on their parade.

While you are sick of seeing the so called 'haters' come in and gak in your cereal, those same people are sick of seeing 'white knights' defend what they perceive as a flawed game, which they can see real ways to improve, and have seen the decline over the years. And while you might see the occasional person post pointless attacks at the game and people who enjoy it, you also see people who enjoy the game post pointless attacks at those who don't.

So while you might want people who don't like the game to simply stop posting, they probably wish the same of you. The best thing to do is exactly what insaniak said - let it go, and read and reply to comments you want to.

Trying to control thought here is ridiculous. GW has reduced "the hobby" to the horrible cancer its become, and fans of it have every right to express their thoughts on the matter. Some North Korean-esque forced propaganda on how great things are is ridiculous.

If you want to bask in the vision of the status quo GW propagates, go on their website. Or better yet warseer.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted. Also, kittens are stupid.'. Thing is, the guys on the other side of the fence don't start out with 'get over it or shut up', they generally start with 'Ok, well, have you tried...?'. But still, the caustic bs continues unabated. Its almost like they enjoy being pissed off.

I actually tend to see the opposite. I more often see 'haters' criticise the product, and give their opinion on what would be better, and get shut down with the same old tired 'vote with your wallet'. But anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.

The fact that so many people are disgruntled, but still interested in criticising, shows that people do care. They want 40k to return to being a good game, with sane(er) prices. They get frustrated when they see people are enjoying what they perceive as a flawed game for many reasons. On the reverse, you have people enjoying the game for what it is, who don't mind the prices, and get frustrated when they see 'haters' come in and rain on their parade.

While you are sick of seeing the so called 'haters' come in and gak in your cereal, those same people are sick of seeing 'white knights' defend what they perceive as a flawed game, which they can see real ways to improve, and have seen the decline over the years. And while you might see the occasional person post pointless attacks at the game and people who enjoy it, you also see people who enjoy the game post pointless attacks at those who don't.

So while you might want people who don't like the game to simply stop posting, they probably wish the same of you. The best thing to do is exactly what insaniak said - let it go, and read and reply to comments you want to.

Fair and valid in total, I concede.