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Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
Harriticus wrote: Trying to control thought here is ridiculous. GW has reduced "the hobby" to the horrible cancer its become, and fans of it have every right to express their thoughts on the matter. Some North Korean-esque forced propaganda on how great things are is ridiculous.
If you want to bask in the vision of the status quo GW propagates, go on their website. Or better yet warseer.
:rollseyes: Calm down there killer, no thought police here, only wild accusations and knee-jerk freakouts over nothing, thanks, by the way.
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points)
We could talk about how awesomely fun the games industry has become, or you know the hobbies that are coming out?
I mean there is so much goodness to share!
Like Warlords of Draenor, or any game that does something different.
Not everything has to be negative. It can be positive. If you surround yourself with negative things. Negativity will find you and beat you like an ogre after getting drunk.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
It would make for a pretty dull forum if you could only say positive nice things for a week. One persons negativity is another persons balanced criticism, apparently both are off the table? It's difficult to have meaningful discussions when contradictory opinions are gagged.
GW used to ban various discussion they didn't approve of on their website. And while every company gets their fair share of moaners, GW invite it through stunts like halving the contents of boxes and keeping prices level, replacing metal with a gakky resin and then raising prices, and sending out C&Ds to many other companies on spurious grounds. It's telling that GW would rather silence criticism on their forums years ago than listen to any of it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/07 05:29:44
The thing is that comments like "GW have made the hobby into a horrible cancer" are completely negative, offer no perspective or analysis as to why the user thinks that, and are seen as depressing and for want of a better word as pointless "h8ing".
It is useless to come to a games discussion board and just say you hate game X or Y. That is exactly the kind of negativity that has the "positivity" crowd complaining about all complaints about GW.
Everyone needs to remember that DakkaDakka is about discussion and promoting enjoyment of wargaming.
That doesn't mean people should not criticise. We should criticise from a rational perspective. Otherwise the extremes of the spectrum of opinion will come to dominate and ruin public discourse to the loss of the majority who are nearer the middle.
So I guess because people want to talk about the same thing over and over again with the same caustic viewpoints, it's ok because poster's 1-27 didn't get to have their say in the last debacle of a 'lawl 'insert rule set/game/GW' is so expensive, chess is better'. Eh, ok.
"So I guess because people want to talk about the same thing over and over again with the same sycophantic viewpoints, it's ok because poster's 1-27 didn't get to have their say in the last lovefest of a 'GW' is the greatest and they have no competition.' Eh, ok."
I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted. Also, kittens are stupid.'
I'm sorry. You are completely misrepresenting the other side with this. There have been entire threads devoted to ideas to improve GW.
If I where to say that I think GW are a cancer on the hobby because they recruit large numbers of people and try to restrict the information those people get to keep them in the Hhhhobby instead of allowing them to explore the whole hobby, because they price themselves so high that other companies can price their products higher than necessary but still appear cheap, because they have and are continuing to try to bully smaller companies into closing down with legal threats or because they are activly working against FLGS would that be considered something more than 'hate'?
I'm calling GW a cancer, it's certainly negative, but it's definitely an argument that can be made.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/07 11:43:18
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Kilkrazy wrote: The thing is that comments like "GW have made the hobby into a horrible cancer" are completely negative, offer no perspective or analysis as to why the user thinks that, and are seen as depressing and for want of a better word as pointless "h8ing".
It is useless to come to a games discussion board and just say you hate game X or Y. That is exactly the kind of negativity that has the "positivity" crowd complaining about all complaints about GW.
Everyone needs to remember that DakkaDakka is about discussion and promoting enjoyment of wargaming.
That doesn't mean people should not criticise. We should criticise from a rational perspective. Otherwise the extremes of the spectrum of opinion will come to dominate and ruin public discourse to the loss of the majority who are nearer the middle.
There. You have it right here. A non-negative thought on GW.
It's official, yakface is now in GW's pocket and the moderators are being pushed to promote 40k in a positive light.
jonolikespie wrote: If I where to say that I think GW are a cancer on the hobby because they recruit large numbers of people and try to restrict the information those people get to keep them in the Hhhhobby instead of allowing them to explore the whole hobby, because they price themselves so high that other companies can price their products higher than necessary but still appear cheap, because they have and are continuing to try to bully smaller companies into closing down with legal threats or because they are activly working against FLGS would that be considered something more than 'hate'?
I'm calling GW a cancer, it's certainly negative, but it's definitely an argument that can be made.
Calling GW a cancer is like calling Hitler a tap dancing queen with a heart of gold.
There are different degrees by which to assess GW. You can call them one of the industry's leading companies and one of the more recognizable faces, but do not assume that it's practices are different from any other company. Apple, GM, Dole Foods, ect. all do dastardly things and GW is no different from what they do than from other companies. Calling them cancer would make tens of thousands upon thousands of other companies a worse form of torture and death by comparison.
The only major difference I have seen from GW is their complete lack of customer interaction. They hardly acknowledge when they are wrong and let no one hold them accountable to it except for once or twice in the last five years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/07 12:07:05
WarOne wrote: Calling GW a cancer is like calling Hitler a tap dancing queen with a heart of gold.
There are different degrees by which to assess GW. You can call them one of the industry's leading companies and one of the more recognizable faces, but do not assume that it's practices are different from any other company. Apple, GM, Dole Foods, ect. all do dastardly things and GW is no different from what they do than from other companies. Calling them cancer would make tens of thousands upon thousands of other companies a worse form of torture and death by comparison.
The only major difference I have seen from GW is their complete lack of customer interaction. They hardly acknowledge when they are wrong and let no one hold them accountable to it except for once or twice in the last five years.
What I am saying is not 'hate' though is it? I'm being negative but I am not emotional about it, I am giving reasons instead of just throwing an opinion in there and leaving it at that.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
WarOne wrote: Calling GW a cancer is like calling Hitler a tap dancing queen with a heart of gold.
There are different degrees by which to assess GW. You can call them one of the industry's leading companies and one of the more recognizable faces, but do not assume that it's practices are different from any other company. Apple, GM, Dole Foods, ect. all do dastardly things and GW is no different from what they do than from other companies. Calling them cancer would make tens of thousands upon thousands of other companies a worse form of torture and death by comparison.
The only major difference I have seen from GW is their complete lack of customer interaction. They hardly acknowledge when they are wrong and let no one hold them accountable to it except for once or twice in the last five years.
What I am saying is not 'hate' though is it? I'm being negative but I am not emotional about it, I am giving reasons instead of just throwing an opinion in there and leaving it at that.
Consider it an exercise in counter-opinions.
An opinion is still a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge (copy-pasted the thar definition boi-yo!). Still carries a subjective viewpoint. Still can be seen hateful as calling something cancer as the qualifier is very negative and nothing likes to be associated with cancer.
Critically analyzing the situation is best done without attaching words that have a charged meaning. Rather, state the facts or use a succinct explanation.
"GW exhibits price gouging tendencies, trends of cornering their market by fighting legal proxy battles, poorly executed designing and manufacturing standards, and has poor customer relations." I think rather than calling them a cancer (even with explanations!), calling them a greedy, mismanaged company is more apt and draws fewer criticisms and rebukes in kind, especially since their history speaks for itself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/07 12:28:50
I cant' help but feel that it's convenient that in making a post about peoples' unwillingness to consider other peoples' views, I managed to inspire such a back and forth.
I can't help but feel that you're being incredibly disingenuous.
Never said people can't share their opinions. Just wondering why folks have to keep repeating the same gak over and over again, it's not like Dakka forget's or anything.
On the flip side, Dakka most likely has not forgotten the positivity, so why post that either? Why post anything? Do you really imagine that there is something to be said that hasn't been before, at some time, by someone, somewhere? Nothing new under the sun.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/07 13:01:54
Kabal of the Slit Throat ~2000pts
Elect of the Plaguefather 4500pts
Frankenberry wrote:If it's relevant, ok, I'll give you that.
People obviously think what they are saying is relevant. Should they PM you first to see if it really is relevant?
Another option you have is to use the little report button. It looks like this: . Then put in that the post is off topic. The mods here are great and if it really is irrelevant to the thread topic, they'll remove the posts.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
Harriticus wrote:Trying to control thought here is ridiculous. GW has reduced "the hobby" to the horrible cancer its become, and fans of it have every right to express their thoughts on the matter. Some North Korean-esque forced propaganda on how great things are is ridiculous.
If you want to bask in the vision of the status quo GW propagates, go on their website. Or better yet warseer.
Kilkrazy wrote:The thing is that comments like "GW have made the hobby into a horrible cancer" are completely negative, offer no perspective or analysis as to why the user thinks that, and are seen as depressing and for want of a better word as pointless "h8ing".
It is useless to come to a games discussion board and just say you hate game X or Y. That is exactly the kind of negativity that has the "positivity" crowd complaining about all complaints about GW.
Everyone needs to remember that DakkaDakka is about discussion and promoting enjoyment of wargaming.
That doesn't mean people should not criticise. We should criticise from a rational perspective. Otherwise the extremes of the spectrum of opinion will come to dominate and ruin public discourse to the loss of the majority who are nearer the middle.
He was pointing out people have the right to express their view, in a thread about only post positive views. When you, don't take only what you want form his post to help your own post. If it was really pointless wouldn't you just remove the post as a mod, anyways. Maybe in a how to fix 40K thread he talk about how to fix it. But, in a "let only say nice thing thread" giving your view of way it will not happen, seem totally on subject.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
I would not necessarily remove a post because it is pointless (the meaning of pointless being judged by moderators, presumably.)
First off it is sometimes too much work.
Secondly, but more importantly, DakkaDakka moderation policy is to delete the minimum necessary so that we can preserve the integrity of the site's records of people's conversations.
Lastly, it sometimes is useful to save a pointless post in order to leave a moderator comment about it.
I agree totally that people have the right to express their views. On DakkaDakka, however, that right is reserved mainly to views about wargaming backed up by reasons, excluding personal comments about other users.
Posts like "GW are AWESOME" and posts like "GW are AWFUL" are equally pointless. They don't contribute to a conversation about games. It is just people shouting. If people give reasons why they think that, it continues a conversation on the subject.
I suppose I can see both sides here. I check the News and Rumours forum fairly regularly because it's the best way to find out what is - or might be - being released. I'll admit, it's a bit tiresome to read multiple posts that suggest that the reader was determined not to like whatever was put out. Or to see the same tired soundbites trotted out time and again.
It's also very frustrating when a worthwhile, or interesting, debate is derailed because of how quickly someone gives, or takes, offense. I don't think that's in anyway limited to this site - or to discussion of Games Workshop though!
The flip side of that is that Games Workshop are a profit making business. That doesn't mean they're intrinsically bad but it does mean that they're fair game for criticism and ultimately, consumers expressing their dissatisfaction (preferably through buying habits as well, not just posting online) is the best way to get a company to change a policy on something.
Mostly when I see people complaining about 40k or Games Workshop, I don't get angry with what they're saying. I'm just disappointed because they're obviously upset with the direction a hobby they used to enjoy a lot is taking. That's rough - it's no fun at all if something you used to enjoy takes a bad turn. And for those people, I'm not sure a week - or whatever - of enforced positivity is going to help.
Kilkrazy wrote: I would not necessarily remove a post because it is pointless (the meaning of pointless being judged by moderators, presumably.)
First off it is sometimes too much work.
Secondly, but more importantly, DakkaDakka moderation policy is to delete the minimum necessary so that we can preserve the integrity of the site's records of people's conversations.
I guess I've seen enough "stay on topic" reminder posts and red text to assume that mods here do indeed cull off topic stuff when requested. I guess it's a case by case basis.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/07 20:14:38
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
Sorry, when I read the OP to think happy thoughts, why did I think of this:
It really is a matter of perspective of where our happiness lies... some are more delusional than others.
I agree there are times to put "a white hat on" but we all hate to give an unbalanced perspective on things.
Too many of us love a lively debate, maybe it would be a "challenge" to use a completely positive view.
That may be too much like those Demotivational posters and could be almost painful.
Never want to pose a problem without some solution:
Give up ever getting the girl on the left if you follow these 15 easy steps, the guy on the right looks like he is cramping already.
<edit> My main form of positive output is by not being serious.
Too much of life is and gaming is just to be a whole lot'O fun.
Passion is to be respected and there always is the ignore button...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/07 20:43:00
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
So I guess because people want to talk about the same thing over and over again with the same caustic viewpoints, it's ok because poster's 1-27 didn't get to have their say in the last debacle of a 'lawl 'insert rule set/game/GW' is so expensive, chess is better'. Eh, ok.
"So I guess because people want to talk about the same thing over and over again with the same sycophantic viewpoints, it's ok because poster's 1-27 didn't get to have their say in the last lovefest of a 'GW' is the greatest and they have no competition.' Eh, ok."
I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted. Also, kittens are stupid.'
I'm sorry. You are completely misrepresenting the other side with this. There have been entire threads devoted to ideas to improve GW.
I agree.
Also, I agree. But no one remembers those threads, we're not talking about those threads, we're talking about people who react to most things like this:
Harriticus wrote: Trying to control thought here is ridiculous. GW has reduced "the hobby" to the horrible cancer its become, and fans of it have every right to express their thoughts on the matter. Some North Korean-esque forced propaganda on how great things are is ridiculous.
If you want to bask in the vision of the status quo GW propagates, go on their website. Or better yet warseer.
That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this. It's the same for those who think nothing is wrong with GW; you have posters that see faults but recognize that the company makes something they still find fun, and then you've got those that won't stand for any sort of 'GW Hate' and they act just as outrageous.
I'm not naive, I understand that people can post their opinions how they want about what they want and so on. It doesn't mean that it's not the tiniest bit frustrating to want to read a thread about improving a game that I like only to have it permeated with people who think that the rule set is crap and people who play it are just too dense to play something that's 'good'.
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points)
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/07 22:07:04
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
And yet, hyperbole or no, it derails threads just as much as those who start with 'stop bitching, hater'. Neither party is without fault here as I've said repeatedly, wouldn't you agree?
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points)
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
And yet, hyperbole or no, it derails threads just as much as those who start with 'stop bitching, hater'. Neither party is without fault here as I've said repeatedly, wouldn't you agree?
No, go back and see. "Stop crying haters" has closed far more threads.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
And yet, hyperbole or no, it derails threads just as much as those who start with 'stop bitching, hater'. Neither party is without fault here as I've said repeatedly, wouldn't you agree?
No, go back and see. "Stop crying haters" has closed far more threads.
Do you have facts for this? If not, it's just an opinion.
DS:70+S+G+M-B--IPw40k94-D+++A++/wWD380R+T(D)DM+
Avatar scene by artist Nicholas Kay. Give credit where it's due!
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
And yet, hyperbole or no, it derails threads just as much as those who start with 'stop bitching, hater'. Neither party is without fault here as I've said repeatedly, wouldn't you agree?
No, go back and see. "Stop crying haters" has closed far more threads.
It wouldnt be an issue if the "haters" group didnt create/flame these issues all day. It has to start somehwere and it seems the hater group is the only fixable source of conflict. When the negativity ends, im fairly sure the anti negativity will end straight away. If the anti negativity ends the negativity will still be around. So in my opinion the best fix is to end negativity to create a more peaceful community. The source of the problem needs to be solved, not the end result of the problem (which is people getting irritated at a select group).
Either the negative group can moderate their negativity to a reasonable level, or they can move on. If they dont then its not surprising that the less dedicated are gonna get annoyed at you. If you dont like being labelled as a hater, then why not eliminate any reason for you to be called one?
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
And yet, hyperbole or no, it derails threads just as much as those who start with 'stop bitching, hater'. Neither party is without fault here as I've said repeatedly, wouldn't you agree?
No, go back and see. "Stop crying haters" has closed far more threads.
It wouldnt be an issue if the "haters" group didnt create/flame these issues all day. It has to start somehwere and it seems the hater group is the only fixable source of conflict. When the negativity ends, im fairly sure the anti negativity will end straight away. If the anti negativity ends the negativity will still be around. So in my opinion the best fix is to end negativity to create a more peaceful community. The source of the problem needs to be solved, not the end result of the problem (which is people getting irritated at a select group).
Either the negative group can moderate their negativity to a reasonable level, or they can move on. If they dont then its not surprising that the less dedicated are gonna get annoyed at you. If you dont like being labelled as a hater, then why not eliminate any reason for you to be called one?
Because any criticism of GW gets one labeled a "hater" regardless of how well supported it is. Maybe the apologist should moderate themselves and stop the personal attacks?
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
Really? Because I frequently see those who enjoy the game labelled as "liking nothing more than garbage" or "with scarily low standards" etc.
Thats like saying someone who enjoys french Fries likes nothing more than killing themselves and clearly needs to eat chemical free apples as a treat instead and then saying they must have low standards because they arent willing to eat the logically better food item. Especially on a forum where the majority are wanting to talk about enjoying french fries.
Its on both sides. Just one side seems to be waaaaay too dedicated to be considered healthy. I wouldnt say any criticism is called out as hating, just the constant criticism that is often repeated from that thread 10 minutes ago. Hence why the term whining is often used, as whining is constant and repetitive.
Why not go to warmachine threads and talk about that instead, if you spent as much time talking about how much you love warmachine in that area as you do talking about how much you enjoy not playing 40k in the 40k area, maybe you would create a more positive image of yourself and not be subject to this retaliation.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/07 23:24:49
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points) 
I laughed out loud at that one. Exalt.
Kabal of the Slit Throat ~2000pts
Elect of the Plaguefather 4500pts
. Then put in that the post is off topic. The mods here are great and if it really is irrelevant to the thread topic, they'll remove the posts.
