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 MWHistorian wrote:
...a bunch of stuff

I'm not altogether sure where your frustration is coming from. I feel like you read a bit too far into my own views on the "positive vs negative on GW" divide. I don't see where I singled out my views on either position in my original post. If you could show me how you jumped to your conclusion, I would appreciate it.

I cant' help but feel that it's convenient that in making a post about peoples' unwillingness to consider other peoples' views, I managed to inspire such a back and forth.

I quite like the idea of a positive thinking week. We even just had this business about facebook and their little experiment - seeing negative stuff can affect your mood negatively.

Criticism is dearly important and people need to remember they aren't the things they like, but at the same time it's good to not miss the forest for the metaphorical trees, and being positive and constructive can help with that.

Still, you can have a positive thinking day whenever you want!

It's distressing to think that we should have something like this.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
That's only part of it, the other (IMO larger) part is that people can sit down and write well considered responses which you can't do in casual discussion with someone face to face. This naturally makes discussions online a far more in depth back and forth than face to face discussions where you don't leave for 15 minutes after each encounter to consider your opponents argument and write up a retort.

This is an interesting response, however I'm not sure I fully agree. I feel you're suggesting the best possible outcome for internet discussion, that all participants will engage the positive aspects of internet / text based discussion. There are also negative attributes that you indirectly eluded to by mentioning the face to face.

I'm not sure how I'm suggesting that, I'm just saying it's a fact of written communication that you get long and in depth responses that last days and some people write thousands of words worth of content. When people can sit and consider a response, they will sit and consider a response. This is both a positive and a negative in and of itself, you can't just write off long arguments as being due to anonymity when that's not the only factor.

When people start actually being arses to each other, yeah, that might be a side effect of anonymity. Though I think it's equally a side effect of simply getting far to involved in a discussion that you start to get frustrated and you start venting when you probably should have left several pages ago when you exhausted your actual arguments and no one was changing their opinion based on your arguments.

Real life face to face wargaming discussions simply don't go that far largely because of the nature of face to face means you don't go in to such strenuous detail.

I'm not saying anonymity isn't part of the reason insults get thrown around, but I personally don't think it's the primary driving factor.

Discussion on the internet loses tone, eye contact, etc. Though I am not any degree of a psychologist, I suspect that these qualities offer a lot in advertising the posture of individuals in discussion.

I'm totally for not inferring a tone in internet discussions unless it is blatantly obvious (which it sometimes might be). This has little to do with people being negative toward their perceived negative aspects of GW though.

I support the idea, but let's be honest most people won't.

I think one of the first issues is that people attribute a lot more negativity, toxicity, and other bad emotions to numerous posts that are not bad for the community. Having a well reasoned, critical opinions of a product from a company within the wargaming hobby shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. If there are seemingly too many of these posts, the issues lies not with the people on the boards, but instead with the reasons that are common with all the posts.

The second issue is that there's an equal amount of negativity and backlash from people tired of the negativity. I've seen as much vitriol thrown back at people who have laid out why they have issues with GW or 40k.

The solution isn't to impose some sort of 'Double Plus Good Happy Thoughts Only Week', but to collectively post better, whether its a 'negative' point or a 'positive' point. While GW has demonstrated time and time and again they have no clue the internet even exists and that all of the posts here will never seen by anyone at GW, the same is also true for any positive reinforcement posted on this forum. Then again, the whole point of a forum is to discuss things, some of which will be serious, others silly, some positive, others less so.

I don't think it's an effect of anonymity - check out some of the truly vile stuff people are willing to say under their legal names on facebook and the like (besides, we're not anonymous here exactly, we're pseudonymous). Insofar as people being more hostile in online discussion exists, it's - I think - an effect of having trouble empathising with another person because they're not in front of you and so you're missing so many visual and audible cues that trigger empathy.

 Blacksails wrote:
I think one of the first issues is that people attribute a lot more negativity, toxicity, and other bad emotions to numerous posts that are not bad for the community. Having a well reasoned, critical opinions of a product from a company within the wargaming hobby shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. If there are seemingly too many of these posts, the issues lies not with the people on the boards, but instead with the reasons that are common with all the posts.

The second issue is that there's an equal amount of negativity and backlash from people tired of the negativity. I've seen as much vitriol thrown back at people who have laid out why they have issues with GW or 40k.

The solution isn't to impose some sort of 'Double Plus Good Happy Thoughts Only Week', but to collectively post better, whether its a 'negative' point or a 'positive' point. While GW has demonstrated time and time and again they have no clue the internet even exists and that all of the posts here will never seen by anyone at GW, the same is also true for any positive reinforcement posted on this forum. Then again, the whole point of a forum is to discuss things, some of which will be serious, others silly, some positive, others less so.

I agree that critical opinions are a good thing. The danger occurs when people start making personal attacks against others simply for having a different opinion. And it's not just the negative posters who do it, both parties are equally guilty.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I don't think it's an effect of anonymity - check out some of the truly vile stuff people are willing to say under their legal names on facebook and the like (besides, we're not anonymous here exactly, we're pseudonymous). Insofar as people being more hostile in online discussion exists, it's - I think - an effect of having trouble empathising with another person because they're not in front of you and so you're missing so many visual and audible cues that trigger empathy.

I think Jojo monkey boy was pretty clear with his insults.

Random Dude wrote:


I agree that critical opinions are a good thing. The danger occurs when people start making personal attacks against others simply for having a different opinion. And it's not just the negative posters who do it, both parties are equally guilty.

Which I covered by saying

collectively post better

Hoping that people would infer that insults are generally a bad way of going about making a point.

As much as I love this idea, I honestly doubt it will get off the ground.

Also someone mentioned the painting forum? I agree as well. The community there is quite nice. I'll have to frequent it more often.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I don't think it's an effect of anonymity - check out some of the truly vile stuff people are willing to say under their legal names on facebook and the like (besides, we're not anonymous here exactly, we're pseudonymous). Insofar as people being more hostile in online discussion exists, it's - I think - an effect of having trouble empathising with another person because they're not in front of you and so you're missing so many visual and audible cues that trigger empathy.

I think Jojo monkey boy was pretty clear with his insults.

Sorry, I don't know why you're addressing that to me! FWIW though, I don't think he has insulted anyone.

...maybe you need to think about his posts more positively?

I loved reading the first page..... it was wonderfully entertaining.

If you don't want to embrace the idea, then don't, but please don't start going on about freedom of speech and democracy and... well.. everything else that I had to wade through in that sea of victimhood.

I agree with Notprop, and have nothing but scorn for crybabies.

Its clearly only a matter of time before someone mentions a certain tiny dictator.......

I'm positive that the positive thinking week will only end up negative...

Collectively being more polite would definitely make the forums a better place. Terms like white knight and apologists and money sheep are no more polite than haters whiners and negative thinkers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also includes terms like toxic, hypocrite and liar.

 milkboy wrote:
Collectively being more polite would definitely make the forums a better place. Terms like white knight and apologists and money sheep are no more polite than haters whiners and negative thinkers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also includes terms like toxic, hypocrite and liar.

"Apologist" isn't a negative term.

a person who defends or supports something (such as a religion, cause, or organization) that is being criticized or attacked by other people

If there's a better word to use, let me know.

You're right!

So let's have all the folks still holding onto the husk of 40k finally come to realize that if we all band together and stop buying 40k during that week, or month, or year until we get positive change within the game to include real community support, better rules, products with higher value, all at least feature parity with their competitors, then that would be a pretty positive week/month/year indeed!

 MWHistorian wrote:

"Apologist" isn't a negative term.

a person who defends or supports something (such as a religion, cause, or organization) that is being criticized or attacked by other people

If there's a better word to use, let me know.

I see. If that is the case, could you give the go ahead for others to refer to you as MWHistorian, the anti GW apologist, henceforth?

 TheKbob wrote:
You're right!

So let's have all the folks still holding onto the husk of 40k finally come to realize that if we all band together and stop buying 40k during that week, or month, or year until we get positive change within the game to include real community support, better rules, products with higher value, all at least feature parity with their competitors, then that would be a pretty positive week/month/year indeed!

YES WE CAN GUYS! BELIEVE IN THE DREAM!!!

Seriously, "post better" is the best suggestion here. Its totally cool to feel frustrated at something you've pumped a bazillionty dollars into. It's NOT okay to slag someone who happens to disagree. Use "I" statements. Do some deep breathing. Have an orgasm or two. Life is beautifully ugly, and our hobby is adorable and fun, even if it includes pages of nerd rage.

The difference between 'all these people are moaning about nothing' and 'all these people are moaning about something'...


Still, this thread did make me scoff a laugh out loud. So I am in more positive mood.

Whilst there is certainly an amount of negativity surrounding GW and its product there are plenty of games and companies discussed on Dakka in a much more positive light.

I would suggest the 40k and WHFB sub forums are much better places to discuss, you know, 40k and WHFB in a more structured way rather than trying to argue the toss in discussions.

Well, I'm certainly having fun painting my Anglo-Danes for SAGA, and I'm looking forward to taking part in a multiplayer game of Wings of War/Glory tomorrow.

And I'm positive that I've been GW free for over two years now!

Random Dude wrote:
I support the idea, but let's be honest most people won't.

Considering you started two threads in 40k general (The sky is falling and I'm tired of all the negativity) that increased the negativity substantially with personal attacks against players, that seems hard to believe.

Random Dude wrote:
I agree that critical opinions are a good thing. The danger occurs when people start making personal attacks against others simply for having a different opinion. And it's not just the negative posters who do it, both parties are equally guilty.

No it's really not both sides equally. It's:
1. people complain about GW
2. people are insulted for complaining about GW
3. people defend their stance for why they're complaining about GW
4. they get insulted again.
5. then *maybe* they return the insults

That's a common trend in all the negative threads recently, which as I mentioned you were a part of instigating.

I'm still having fun painting Games Workshop miniatures. I'm also having fun selling my armies to people who will have fun with them in turn.

Positive!

 TheKbob wrote:
I'm still having fun painting Games Workshop miniatures. I'm also having fun selling my armies to people who will have fun with them in turn.

Positive!

I've said repeatedly that GW does some things right. One was the new SM bundles which are decent value and I hope a step in the right direction. Which ties in to what you're doing, because I'm painting them atm too and enjoying it ; ) Though every time I paint my Blood Ravens I have to play some more Dawn of War 1/2 again ; p

 Yonan wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
I'm still having fun painting Games Workshop miniatures. I'm also having fun selling my armies to people who will have fun with them in turn.

Positive!

I've said repeatedly that GW does some things right. One was the new SM bundles which are decent value and I hope a step in the right direction. Which ties in to what you're doing, because I'm painting them atm too and enjoying it ; ) Though every time I paint my Blood Ravens I have to play some more Dawn of War 1/2 again ; p

Nice. Maybe I should keep my box of Space Marines I was going to sell to be Blood Ravens. Not hurting for the cash....

OP, just choose one week out of the year and for that week, stay away from the GW related forums. There is little if any negativity in the forums for other games, or in places like the previously mentioned painting/modelling forum

mattyrm wrote:If you don't want to embrace the idea, then don't, but please don't start going on about freedom of speech and democracy and... well.. everything else that I had to wade through in that sea of victimhood.

I agree with Notprop, and have nothing but scorn for crybabies.

This is a textbook case of perpetuating what you claim to be against. You're being insulting and negative towards other posters.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
You're right!

So let's have all the folks still holding onto the husk of 40k finally come to realize that if we all band together and stop buying 40k during that week, or month, or year until we get positive change within the game to include real community support, better rules, products with higher value, all at least feature parity with their competitors, then that would be a pretty positive week/month/year indeed!

YES WE CAN GUYS! BELIEVE IN THE DREAM!!!

Seriously, "post better" is the best suggestion here. Its totally cool to feel frustrated at something you've pumped a bazillionty dollars into. It's NOT okay to slag someone who happens to disagree. Use "I" statements. Do some deep breathing. Have an orgasm or two. Life is beautifully ugly, and our hobby is adorable and fun, even if it includes pages of nerd rage.

The people being negative ARE posting better; it's the ones that come in saying "Quit whining! If you don't like it go play something else!" that slag people who disagree. Thus far almost all the "anti-negative" threads that have been closed, have been closed because the "anti-negative" people are the ones getting hostile and resorting to insults, while the "negative" crowd always provides rational reasons for their negativity only to have it dismissed with something close to "Nuh uh!"

Apologists: Call for less negativity. Insult people with different opinions.

Seems legit.