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And since you are taking Farsight to get O'Vesa you are limited to a 2Suit Bodyguard team at the cost of a Commander. Two overpriced suits, filled with costly equipment, just to grant benefits to O'Vesa is quite points inefficient and less effective than a BuffCommander and crisis team. To each their own I suppose... Anyway, O'Vesa can't be in a unit with other ICs so the discussion was academic at best, pointless at worst.

There weren't any Adamantine Lances in the Top Bracket, but they were all over Bracket 2 and Bracket 3. Let's see, some Adamantine Lances lost in the first four to get bumped out by other lances. I know Reece knocked Neil out game one then got knocked out by Haley. Frankie beat two of them in back to back games knocking both into Bracket 2. NOVA Terrain made moving knights difficult, but despite that, overall, the Adamantine Lance's win rate and average placing was very good. But, you can draw any conclusions you want, but you've got a limited data set plagued by variables. What isn't in doubt is the strength of the Adamantine Lance's showing overall, but please continue to draw your own conclusions and don't let reality dissuade you.

Twisting my point and disregarding how much Summoning was a part of those top lists and how well lists with summoning capabilities did overall doesn't matter. Nope, TK did summon anything and still own, because he is TK and ridiculously good. Pure Summoning is not as good as taking already strong armies and augmenting them with summoning. Minimal investment with a huge payout. And you still don't get that summoning really was present at many of the top tables and draw a completely different conclusion. The ability to summon additional units and additional points in units was huge, especially in the Points and Regions Mission. The mechanic itself is not a good one and initial 7th edition fears were warranted, just misdirected from pure Daemon factories to already strong armies immensely boosted by low investment Summoning. I've already said pure summoning is not the best, it's time prohibitive, has points of failure, etc, but for a marginal investment you can get a huge ROI out of adding Summoning to an already strong army.


Anyway, comment on topic or I'd be happy to continue the discussion elsewhere. I'm done with it here.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

strickland05 wrote:
Oh don't worry I'll post here, and we both know whAt you were doing, anyways, on another topic, and yes I apologize if I was incorrect. I usually run a list that is similar to yours, al be it a bit less missile suits, most of my Death Star shooting units are fusion and plasma, but I feel like missile pods add more versatility, due to range, non reliance on deep striker reserve rolls and such. Did you find that eight bs 5 essentially twin linked marker drones was to much, were you wasting hits? And also what would your thoughts be on adding farsight instead of the missile commander and using his bodyguard I understand that it would probably change the mechanic of your list, but did you find you would benifit from more suits, or less marker drones?

8 average ML hits can be too much, but those Marker Drones also worked as cheap Ablative Wounds for the squad and keeping those 16 Twinlinked Tank/Monster Hunting Ignores cover shots firing every turn was more important. Plums 8MLs was always useful against some targets and 8 with Snap shots has proved to be useful when making snap shots. The range was a huge assets as I had to rely on DSing Fusion and Markerlights to handle hard targets.

IMO a Farsight Bomb is an entirely different animal. I don't like losing the initial turn of the PEN, but the Bomb certainly puts out the hurt. I feel you can make an absurdly strong BOMB with Farsight and Shadowsun, using a mix of MPs, FBs, and PRs with gun Drones and a BuffCommander(or Buff Suit) the unit can deploy and be so hard to catch. Then using a pair of Skurays for support and a couple of Aristides. It's a huge move away from a crisis list, but should prove to be hugely effective. It's just concerning that some lists pose huge problems for it or the Adamantine Lance or rapid assault armies.

For how I was building the list, I found the 8 Marker Drones essential and bumped my original 6 Marker Drone list up to it within the first couple of games in 7th edition.

Ya, I agree with the shadow sun bomb, that's not really where I was heading though, I was thinking keeping the allied tau detachment for buffmander, and using farsight instead of your missile commander, which I see the draw backs, losing four bs 5 missiles, but you gin the ability to add one maybe two suits, at a premium of ten points, some close combat ability, not much but, I was charged by a lucky knight charge roll and over watch combined with tank hunting armour bane managed to strip the remaining three hull points, not ideal, as the explosion would and could destroy the unit. Just a thought, and could be a bad one, I'll have to play test it, and I to usually use 6 marker drones, I'll have to try the eight, also I agree with your original a assessment of burst tides way more versatile. And warlord traits, iv thought of master of ambush and have really tried to make use of it, I'm sure you've seen that it's situational but when it works out it swings the game

strickland05 wrote:
Ya, I agree with the shadow sun bomb, that's not really where I was heading though, I was thinking keeping the allied tau detachment for buffmander, and using farsight instead of your missile commander, which I see the draw backs, losing four bs 5 missiles, but you gin the ability to add one maybe two suits, at a premium of ten points, some close combat ability, not much but, I was charged by a lucky knight charge roll and over watch combined with tank hunting armour bane managed to strip the remaining three hull points, not ideal, as the explosion would and could destroy the unit. Just a thought, and could be a bad one, I'll have to play test it, and I to usually use 6 marker drones, I'll have to try the eight, also I agree with your original a assessment of burst tides way more versatile. And warlord traits, iv thought of master of ambush and have really tried to make use of it, I'm sure you've seen that it's situational but when it works out it swings the game

I see where you are going. I love Farsight and ran him without his command Team in 6th. No Scatter DS was great for Fusion suits or my dual Burst Squads. I originally still had him in there, but when I made the transition to the Shooting Deathstar I wasn't willing to pay the premium for Bodyguards to get close to the same amount of shooting and found the Velocity tracker addition really nice to turn an army with good AA I to one with Great AA. I love Farsight and he has been greatly missed, but I opted to go more all in with the MO Commander.

Interestingly enough, that squad was seen at ETC, except with their ability to control matchups they doubled down with two MP Commanders. Clauss or Gonyo was telling me about it, I don't remember what team was running it to good effect.

If you have first turn Master of Ambush is awesome. Also, if I think my opponent is going for it, I try and get it as we'll as a defensive measure. At NOVA I kept getting it on my reroll as my initial trait was useless and of course I never had first turn to take advantage of it. It's hard to go wrong with Strategic in general though.

Stretegic is the best, if you don't mind I'm going to switch out my fusion suits with missile pods, I had almost the exact setup but with fusion blasters, and try out more marker drones

strickland05 wrote:
Stretegic is the best, if you don't mind I'm going to switch out my fusion suits with missile pods, I had almost the exact setup but with fusion blasters, and try out more marker drones

Strategic definitely is pretty awesome in general.

Feel free, and I'd like to know how it turns out for you. It suits my play style, I liked deploying three Riptides and the BuffCommander MP unit denying my opponents first blood. It was a resilient firebase with the ability to hurt a wide array of targets. Lots of ObSec scoring in reserves and DSing Fusion for special targets was pretty reliable and effective against most lists.

 Zagman wrote:

IMO a Farsight Bomb is an entirely different animal. I don't like losing the initial turn of the PEN, but the Bomb certainly puts out the hurt. I feel you can make an absurdly strong BOMB with Farsight and Shadowsun, using a mix of MPs, FBs, and PRs with gun Drones and a BuffCommander(or Buff Suit) the unit can deploy and be so hard to catch. Then using a pair of Skurays for support and a couple of Aristides. It's a huge move away from a crisis list, but should prove to be hugely effective. It's just concerning that some lists pose huge problems for it or the Adamantine Lance or rapid assault armies.

Interesting that you mention about Adlance and fast assault armies as it is something I often struggle with when theory hammering with my farsight bomb. I tend to max out skyrays (taking four at 1750+) rather than going down the riptides route, but I am considering using them as they provide a greater ground presence and flexibility over the skyrays. I take it you use your riptides as a method of tying up some assault elements? Do you feel you could use some blocking elements? I have made reasonable use of kroot (for pushing back infils and scouts), crisis + drones for bubble wrapping along with piranhas and to some extent skyrays. The vehicles have proved useful against knights as they can be sacrificed to create additional terrain (wrecks) which can hamper their movement.

I'm a huge fan of the buffmander, or at least an iridium shielded stimulant commander, a lot of people ask why I wouldn't put it on a bodyguard or similar suit, but it don't know what it is, I agree with the fact that somehow it seems to be more durable than a riptide, iv had entire army shoot at him and not kill him. He is usually the MVP. Anyways congrats on the tournament 5th is a great placing and I enjoyed your play style

djn wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

IMO a Farsight Bomb is an entirely different animal. I don't like losing the initial turn of the PEN, but the Bomb certainly puts out the hurt. I feel you can make an absurdly strong BOMB with Farsight and Shadowsun, using a mix of MPs, FBs, and PRs with gun Drones and a BuffCommander(or Buff Suit) the unit can deploy and be so hard to catch. Then using a pair of Skurays for support and a couple of Aristides. It's a huge move away from a crisis list, but should prove to be hugely effective. It's just concerning that some lists pose huge problems for it or the Adamantine Lance or rapid assault armies.

Interesting that you mention about Adlance and fast assault armies as it is something I often struggle with when theory hammering with my farsight bomb. I tend to max out skyrays (taking four at 1750+) rather than going down the riptides route, but I am considering using them as they provide a greater ground presence and flexibility over the skyrays. I take it you use your riptides as a method of tying up some assault elements? Do you feel you could use some blocking elements? I have made reasonable use of kroot (for pushing back infils and scouts), crisis + drones for bubble wrapping along with piranhas and to some extent skyrays. The vehicles have proved useful against knights as they can be sacrificed to create additional terrain (wrecks) which can hamper their movement.

I sometimes find myself in a position where I have to sacrifice a Riptide, oh how I wish they were fearless. In two of those games I had to do it, once against the SpawnStar and against the ScreamerStar. Usually I can put the hurt on most fast assault elements, especially if I can get first turn, but sometimes, you have to sacrifice something and try and scoot away from the rest. Riptides often fold in combat, but there are some targets they can tarpit fairly well. I also will choose Stubborn for my Pen, take the hit, then try and Hit and Run out. I had to do that against the Hounds twice and it has proven to be successful. Sometimes they make a charge before I get stubborn up and I'm in trouble, sometimes it works out.

I think the Bomb struggles with the Adamantine Lance because they can make the facing you land on basically unkillable. The best solution is to land your Bomb with no scatter splitting two arcs on two different Knights so you are guarenteed to have some of your fusion in at least one unshielded Arc. Then, if you can kill one, hit the unshielded arc of the Center Knight. Skyrays can work, but you have to just hide them and wait until turn 2 when your Bomb diverts their shields before blowing their load. That may end up with some dead Skyrays that never fire, but against the Lance a constant stream of firepower doesn't do it, it has to be a decisive amount of firepower in a single turn to break it. Otherwise its just too resilient.

The problem with dropping Riptides for Skyrays is that the Riptides need support and the Skyrays give support, they are an apples and oranges problem. I'd look at 2x Skyrays and an ECPA HBCTide. The ECPA HBC doesn't require much support and become effective BS10 with only 2 Markerlights. That gives you a bit more ground presence, some more resilient and mid game firepower, and doesn't tax your support too much.

I definitely could use some bubble wrap units and one thing I failed to do at the tournament was use my Firewarriors in a sacrificial capacity. I could have used them spread out to screen either the Hounds or Spawn in my 3rd game. They wouldn't have helped against any other opponent as First Blood is a huge part of my Strategy and putting something killable down really hurts me there. I think I chose and got First Blood in every single game at NOVA with my list except against Haley's Nurgle Princes, otherwise I went 7 for 8 getting first blood by denying any easy kills with my list. In the past, I have used my Dual Burst Squad as bubble wrap against fast assault armies especially Khorne rush etc, I didn't in game 3 as I needed them to DS into his backfield and try and take out his Summoners otherwise i would have used them against his Hounds and stood a much better chance of taking out the whole unit by turn 2. In retrospect, it may have been the better play and would have allowed me to press forward instead of being hemmed in so bad as his Scouting Hounds couldn't have assaulted me turn 1.

strickland05 wrote:I'm a huge fan of the buffmander, or at least an iridium shielded stimulant commander, a lot of people ask why I wouldn't put it on a bodyguard or similar suit, but it don't know what it is, I agree with the fact that somehow it seems to be more durable than a riptide, iv had entire army shoot at him and not kill him. He is usually the MVP. Anyways congrats on the tournament 5th is a great placing and I enjoyed your play style

I am as well, I've been running the same BuffCommander setup since mid 6th. I love his ability to Tank, in 6th he would be attached to a Riptide making them deadly, then he would bounce over to whatever Riptide was most hurt and Tank for it often keeping my firebase unhampered all game. In 7th he got put into a dual MP Crisis unit, man T4 really means he has a ton more wounds headed his way, but overall he is still very effective at keeping the unit alive and with LOS to Drones most opponenets just ignore the unit which comes at its own risks.

And since you are taking Farsight to get O'Vesa you are limited to a 2Suit Bodyguard team at the cost of a Commander. Two overpriced suits, filled with costly equipment, just to grant benefits to O'Vesa is quite points inefficient and less effective than a BuffCommander and crisis team. To each their own I suppose... Anyway, O'Vesa can't be in a unit with other ICs so the discussion was academic at best, pointless at worst.

1) It's not less efficient, it's more efficient as you don't have to pay the Fire Warrior tax and give up your ally slot. Anyway, attaching ICs is allowed over here so the attached ICs make it work.
2) Having the buffcommander tank as well as buff is a bad idea since all it takes is one ID shot to make you lose a game.

There weren't any Adamantine Lances in the Top Bracket, but they were all over Bracket 2 and Bracket 3. Let's see, some Adamantine Lances lost in the first four to get bumped out by other lances. I know Reece knocked Neil out game one then got knocked out by Haley. Frankie beat two of them in back to back games knocking both into Bracket 2. NOVA Terrain made moving knights difficult, but despite that, overall, the Adamantine Lance's win rate and average placing was very good. But, you can draw any conclusions you want, but you've got a limited data set plagued by variables. What isn't in doubt is the strength of the Adamantine Lance's showing overall, but please continue to draw your own conclusions and don't let reality dissuade you.

'There weren't any Adamantaine Lances in the Top Bracket' says it all doesn't it? It's showing shows it's not that strong... I'm not sure what other conclusions you can draw from this other than you like to talk down to people who question you.

Twisting my point and disregarding how much Summoning was a part of those top lists and how well lists with summoning capabilities did overall doesn't matter. Nope, TK did summon anything and still own, because he is TK and ridiculously good. Pure Summoning is not as good as taking already strong armies and augmenting them with summoning. Minimal investment with a huge payout. And you still don't get that summoning really was present at many of the top tables and draw a completely different conclusion. The ability to summon additional units and additional points in units was huge, especially in the Points and Regions Mission. The mechanic itself is not a good one and initial 7th edition fears were warranted, just misdirected from pure Daemon factories to already strong armies immensely boosted by low investment Summoning. I've already said pure summoning is not the best, it's time prohibitive, has points of failure, etc, but for a marginal investment you can get a huge ROI out of adding Summoning to an already strong army.

So being TK>Summoning? If it was that effective a strategy, don't you think he would use it? Every psyker has access to summoning, so the minimum investment here = access to a Psyker. Summoning is unreliable, rolling Incursion is unreliable, and getting perils is a quite likely. Just because summoning was effective against you doesn't make it the game breaking threat of 7th that everyone was whining about. Obviously summoning in Points and Regions missions is a big deal, just as summoning in a KP scenario is terrible. The point being that summoning isn't as broken as you think it is, and you seem to be the only player complaining about it, which in threads like this have a bigger effect causing other players to start as well.

Anyway, comment on topic or I'd be happy to continue the discussion elsewhere. I'm done with it here.

This entire discussion is on topic. If you're done because you're wrong, then by all means concede.

1. No, just no. Its less firepower, less overall support, on a flimsier platform. Just a little bit of barrage removes your ability to buff the unit. Fire Warriors aren't useless, they are scoring units that bring some firepower to the table and are useful for snagging backfield objectives. They sneak on and hold objectives just like Cultist except they have useful ranged weaponry.
2. Not in the slightest. I've been using a Tanking BuffCommander competitively for over a year and only once, at NOVA, was it ever IDed at range and that was due to Enfeeble. Far more often have I faced Barrage that could have taken it out easily had it been a simple Suit. TFCs, Orbital Bombardments, Night Spinners, and Wyverns make your Buffing Bodyguard a terrible idea. Hell, any readily available long ranged Barrage would eliminate your buff suit quickly, then all you are left with is overpriced an optimized O'Vesa. I'll pass. Now, if you are able to add O'Vesa to another unit, O'Vesa, Buffcommander, in an MP Crisis unit is much more effective and more optimized although it makes it more difficult to have the unit double in a Support role and changes the entire dynamic of an army designed around it.

Yes, none in the top bracket, but all had a very very good showing overall. Every Adamantine Lance had a winning record and there were many in Brackets 2 and 3. Your method of drawing conclusions leaves much to be desired. You can't argue the Adamantine Lance didn't have a strong showing, but you take its not being present in the top bracket as evidence it wasn't very strong, which is far from the case. Matchups and pairing came into play not to mention NOVA's format and terrain are a hindrance to Knights and despite those factors it had a very strong showing across the board.. I don't like to talk down to people, but do prefer intelligent conversation.


And now your argument had just devolved into incoherent dribble. Please learn how to format a coherent and valid argument. It is painful to read.

I was not alone in my thinking, Daemon Summoning and its strength was widely discussed at NOVA. You have failed to impress me on just about every level with your lack of ability to formulate a coherent argument and respond in an objective and rational manner.

I have the feeling you aren't going to stop talking now because you have a need to continue and prove me round, but this is not the place for a full discussion of Daemon Summoning. I've relayed my experiences with it at NOVA as well as its prevalence at the top tables.

I am not conceding because I am wrong. I am going to stop engaging with you because its not worth my time to continue.

So here is my nice request, please stop posting here unless its directly relevant. Any other post will not get a response, there are other threads and forums for that as it has been railroaded off topic.

Loving all the insight you are putting in to the responses Zagman. 5th at NOVA is awesome! Congrats again

One thing I've noticed after play testing your list a couple times is just what you responded with in your last reply. Barrage... It seems if my opponent uses the plethora of Barrages to bombard my suits the little mini-shooty deathstar starts to loose a lot of firepower. The loss of a single Crisis Suit with dual MPs or even 2 starts to really wreck on the list.

Any advice to circumvent this? Surely after a year+ of testing this and playing this little deathstar you've overcome it somehow? It's one of the things I struggle with still.

 syypher wrote:
Loving all the insight you are putting in to the responses Zagman. 5th at NOVA is awesome! Congrats again

One thing I've noticed after play testing your list a couple times is just what you responded with in your last reply. Barrage... It seems if my opponent uses the plethora of Barrages to bombard my suits the little mini-shooty deathstar starts to loose a lot of firepower. The loss of a single Crisis Suit with dual MPs or even 2 starts to really wreck on the list.

Any advice to circumvent this? Surely after a year+ of testing this and playing this little deathstar you've overcome it somehow? It's one of the things I struggle with still.

I've only had since 7th dropped with this unit, so a couple of months, but I've been running a similar overall army since FE dropped in 6th though my last iteration didn't have the barrage weakenss.

Barrage plain and simple sucks to face for this army, luckily there isn't that much of it out in the Meta outside of Orbital Bombardemnt on a Chapter Master, Wyverns, and Thunderfire Cannons, and Night Spinners. The answer as usual is it depends. It depends on just how much Barrage your opponent has and just what kind it is.

The best plan is going first and trying to nuke the units with Barrage. Wyverns for example can be taken out if you go first. If they are corner deployed you can get around them if possible. Deploying in a Ruins helps, a 4+Cover(3+Night Fight) can really limit the damage done and give the unit a turn it needs to hit the opponent. Going first is great because if you can weather one turn, you can drop Fusion to neutralize the threat.

Orbital Bombardment is rough, at least most of the time is on a Beaststick ChapterMaster who is more concerned with getting into combat or having his accompanying Grav hit one of your Riptides to worry about it. Even spread out a hit can be really painful, just make sure your Dual MP Commander is at the back and can LOS to Drones and your BuffCommander is in the Front and can LOS to Drones and most of the time you will survive with some firepower in tact.

TFCs hurt, at least they are only small blasts and don't ignore your armor saves or covers saves depending on where you deploy and their mode of fire. They also can be taken out with Riptides fairly well. Weather and eliminate if possible.

Night Spinners are tough but manageable, they rend but they normally grant an armor save, so spreading the unit out can mitigate how much gets hit and suits can tank a few wounds as they are I4 as a unit with the drone so the NightSpinner isn't too terrible. If you can get range, your MPStar will drop two in a single turn just like Wave Serpents.

For Wyverns and Spinners, a single Pen can stop them from firing which is huge, if they can't fire that turn, you've done your job.


If you are facing a ton of Barrage, you can reserve the unit and just deploy 3 Riptides. Target the Barrage and then bring on the MP unit. I haven't had to do it yet, but it can work and only exists in my brain in theory. Lots of barrage is a pretty good counter to that unit, luckily not that many armies are using a lot of barrage currently. Now, if they know what you are bringing, expect them to double down on it. Anything that is a relatively soft target with Barrage is usually one of the first targets and will need to be dealt with. Heck, in game 7 its the reason I dropped the Dual Burst Squad on the Wyverns, because they needed to die. Of course, they misshaped and got placed in my far corner, but I had to try as my 2nd unit of Fusion didn't come in.


Sorry my response was pretty disjointed, I am in a bit of a rush between clients.

There weren't any Adamantine Lances in the Top Bracket, but they were all over Bracket 2 and Bracket 3. Let's see, some Adamantine Lances lost in the first four to get bumped out by other lances. I know Reece knocked Neil out game one then got knocked out by Haley. Frankie beat two of them in back to back games knocking both into Bracket 2. NOVA Terrain made moving knights difficult, but despite that, overall, the Adamantine Lance's win rate and average placing was very good. But, you can draw any conclusions you want, but you've got a limited data set plagued by variables. What isn't in doubt is the strength of the Adamantine Lance's showing overall, but please continue to draw your own conclusions and don't let reality dissuade you.

'There weren't any Adamantaine Lances in the Top Bracket' says it all doesn't it? It's showing shows it's not that strong... I'm not sure what other conclusions you can draw from this other than you like to talk down to people who question you.

I smell some pooh... Sorry. Woulda coulda shoulda.

Thanatos. While any given result can be ignored as a outlier, the fact that none of Adamantine Lances made bracket 1 shows that the build is not a good enough TAC list. Individual skill may play a huge role in how good your army does, but something is obviously missing from the list's ability to handle the scenarios.

Adlance is a tough build to play against. However, as with any deathstar-type builds, it is a rather unbalanced build as well and will have some potentially problematic matchups.

Now with that said, I decided to give the Adlance a try. I then proceeded to pound on the seer council not once, but twice, into submission. Now does that mean anything? Not really, other than the fact that it can go head-on with some of the other more competitive armies.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

This entire discussion is on topic. If you're done because you're wrong, then by all means concede.

this is a bad post and you are a bad poster.

Fragile wrote:
Thanatos. While any given result can be ignored as a outlier, the fact that none of Adamantine Lances made bracket 1 shows that the build is not a good enough TAC list. Individual skill may play a huge role in how good your army does, but something is obviously missing from the list's ability to handle the scenarios.

Statistics fail.

The only thing we can really conclude with any degree of confidence is that the Adamantine Lance is strong due to its overall win/loss record, and it's frequency in the top brackets. Sure, it our limited data set it did not have a place in the top bracket, but it's overall very high placing in relation to its frequency is much more significant.

In the top four, we have two people who were 3-1 and bracketed up. So half of our eventual top four had the same W/L record as most of the Adamanatine Lances before being bracketed up. As three 3-1s did get bracketed up, we can look at the data set in terms of how many Adamantine Lances were in contention for the top Bracket and missed out only by tie breakers.

Basically the data set doesn't support some of the sweeping conclusions being presented and certainly doesn't "show" your position to be correct and makes it very tenuous at best.

I can say with 100% certainty that summoning is fantastic. As a whole, the primaris power is superior to incursion for versatility. Everyone can get the primaris ALWAYS.

The issue I think with most summoning is they rely entirely on summoning for their damage output. When you're rolling round the table with pink horrors and tzeentch Heralds, it isn't much.

That's why all of the demons in the top bracket were summoning with already established bearer units, whether they were princes or knight titans and soul grinders.

To summarily dismiss summoning is ignorant at best.

I was in 5th overall with summoning prior to dropping after the second day.

I just wanted to chime in as one of the Adlance players at NOVA. There were no Lances in bracket one however there were 3 in bracket two (myself, James Watkins, and Neil) and I believe 2 in bracket three (Reece and Jesse Newton). I missed bracket one by a single battlepoint. By the end of day 2 I had the highest battlepoints in the tournament at 77 through 6 games (90 pts maximum) and finished at 101 of 120, 1 point shy of battlemaster. I also scored max points in 3 of my 4 bracket games in bracket two which had no easy players either (its still the top 32 players in the event). I didn't score less than 9 out of 15 points in any of my games, and the two games I did lose were by a combined total of 1 battlepoint and 300 vps on tiebreaker against good players as well. I also had zero playtesting with this army. From all of this data I would say the Lance certainly is strong, and while it didn't make top bracket it certainly was a contender throughout the tournament. Keep in mind I never played against necrons, which is a known bad matchup for this or any knight-style list. So I'm not trying to poo-poo on your analysis that Lance 'isn't that strong' but I wanted to give more data regarding it as I feel that simply 'not making top bracket' isn't an adequate litmus test of its tournament viability.

Apologize for messing these quotes all up, I'm pretty bad with the quote system.

What difficulties did you face with the Adlance? I'm curious to find out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

axisofentropy wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

This entire discussion is on topic. If you're done because you're wrong, then by all means concede.

this is a bad post and you are a bad poster.

Surely the irony of your post is lost on you...

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

I just wanted to chime in as one of the Adlance players at NOVA. There were no Lances in bracket one however there were 3 in bracket two (myself, James Watkins, and Neil) and I believe 2 in bracket three (Reece and Jesse Newton). I missed bracket one by a single battlepoint. By the end of day 2 I had the highest battlepoints in the tournament at 77 through 6 games (90 pts maximum) and finished at 101 of 120, 1 point shy of battlemaster. I also scored max points in 3 of my 4 bracket games in bracket two which had no easy players either (its still the top 32 players in the event). I didn't score less than 9 out of 15 points in any of my games, and the two games I did lose were by a combined total of 1 battlepoint and 300 vps on tiebreaker against good players as well. I also had zero playtesting with this army. From all of this data I would say the Lance certainly is strong, and while it didn't make top bracket it certainly was a contender throughout the tournament. Keep in mind I never played against necrons, which is a known bad matchup for this or any knight-style list. So I'm not trying to poo-poo on your analysis that Lance 'isn't that strong' but I wanted to give more data regarding it as I feel that simply 'not making top bracket' isn't an adequate litmus test of its tournament viability.

Apologize for messing these quotes all up, I'm pretty bad with the quote system.

What difficulties did you face with the Adlance? I'm curious to find out.

Well wraithknights are kinda scary, Frankie's went crazy and killed 1k of my army (i had a knight explode on top of a riptide after scattering 12 inches), and my other loss was to double wraithknight. The 2nd loss was more poor positioning on my part as i was trying to castle one corner with knights and the other with riptides (it was the corners mission and i didn't give enough respect to my own speed, so deployed incorrectly). But I think the wraithknight/iknight standoff is pretty real and both sides of that fight have a clear intimidation factor. Frankie's 1 wraithknight killed 2 iknights before either ever got to swing due to canny positioning on his part. Then again in game 5 I had a wraithknight charge in and due a whopping 2 hp, then get d-slapped for like 15 wounds. So its a tossup IMO. I handled screamerstar pretty easily even though my opponent had some untimely dice rolls and didn't summon nearly enough to get a critical mass of threats on the table. I also demolished double beastpack and beat a 25ish model thunderwolf star with 6ish hammers/fists just due to some timely 6s on stomps, but also because i never had less than 2 knights engaged with his deathstar. I think its pretty obvious that flyer heavy crons would be a deathknell for this army, but there was surprisingly few of those. I think that's probably due to the meta being very oriented on putting boots on the ground, and deathstars which crons still don't handle so great, and also tau missileside spam in the form of the formation. That last one is brutal-I played flyer/double ccb crons in the invitational and got smoked game one by 9 broadside/2 riptide tau, it was a bad time. Then again i think my invitational list would probably beat my list for the open, but would have to play cautiously as if you don't knock out a knight or 2 on the commit turn you're probably dead.

That's the trouble with Knights I guess, with the way their results swing you either have amazing games with them or they just die quickly with no ceremony.

I'd thought that the TWC would stomp them with all those nasty str 10 attacks?

Also, don't Ion Shield rerolls pretty much make them invulnerable to Necron shooting?

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
That's the trouble with Knights I guess, with the way their results swing you either have amazing games with them or they just die quickly with no ceremony.

I'd thought that the TWC would stomp them with all those nasty str 10 attacks?

Also, don't Ion Shield rerolls pretty much make them invulnerable to Necron shooting?

Yeah that's true with regards to the knights performance, though with good positioning you should have the former happening more than the latter. Also with regards to necron shooting if you have a nightscythe with a unit of 5 warriors and a stormtek embarked you can maneuver in such a way that the scythe is hitting one armor facing while the tek/warriors hits another, thus ensuring that some shots will be hitting a non-shielded facing. Obviously you need multiples of this to take a knight out in a single turn, but it is accomplishable. Also if you are using terrain appropriately (especially nova terrain) you can get some cheap shot sweep attacks off with your command barges. That's more terrain dependent than anything, but it again is something you could in theory accomplish.

The thunderwolves still took out 2 and a half knights. The downfall of my opponent was that he never could isolate one and one turn kill it that cost him really painful retaliation. I was able to get multiple knights stomping him every turn, which meant eventual 6's were going to happen and when they did they were killing 400ish points at a shot. That quickly evened up the fight and lead to him being down to 2 cav models by turn 4 while I had a knight left with 4 hp. He charged in and did 1-2 hp with his last hammer and then got taken out between d swings and stomps.

Great bat reps, and I had a great time playing you. Congrats on first bracket with that tau list, was a pretty unconventional one!!

I had a blast playing you. I just wish chimeras had jink :(

 krootman. wrote:
Great bat reps, and I had a great time playing you. Congrats on first bracket with that tau list, was a pretty unconventional one!!

I had a blast playing you. I just wish chimeras had jink :(

Hey, you too! I had a blast playing you too. Thanks, I felt the list had a lot of good matchups and some really bad ones and I managed to sidestep most of the bad to make first bracket, then got pummeled hard in the first two games of that bracket!

Thanks again for stepping up game 7.

 Zagman wrote:

 krootman. wrote:
Great bat reps, and I had a great time playing you. Congrats on first bracket with that tau list, was a pretty unconventional one!!

I had a blast playing you. I just wish chimeras had jink :(

Hey, you too! I had a blast playing you too. Thanks, I felt the list had a lot of good matchups and some really bad ones and I managed to sidestep most of the bad to make first bracket, then got pummeled hard in the first two games of that bracket!

Thanks again for stepping up game 7.

Yea having to play double guard blob round 2 hurt :/