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You guys do realize that after they charge, and pile in, it's very unlikely they'll still be in range of the spyder, right?

Yeah but after that the unit they charged is probably going to be dead. So does that really matter?

Do they still have rending? Sounds like any AV13 walker could hold them up for a while.

We'll see. I dont think it is that easy. I can think of that most non-competitive Players will run 1 unit at max. That should be possible to handle for most armies (most of the times not point effective). In the tournament scene it will be a little bit different. Think wraithwing will be back. Question is, if it is powerful/broken enough to beat the other broken netlists.

The Thing about wraith is not that they are unstoppable, but their costs are way to low for what they do. Compare 6 Wraith to 6TH/SS Termies For their speed, durability and hitting power i would say they should be around 55 points.

They are beautifully undercosted, and I agree 1 unit, at least in a decurion. OR,a full wing from another formation/CAD.



Anything with invisiblity and/or hit & run or D attacks or even just dirt cheap tarpits doesn't care too much about wraithwing though and thats quite a bit of the best units. They're not large enough to pull off multi assaults like beasts used to or khornedogs and they have no ranged presence so they still need ranged support. I do see certain armies/builds folding to wraithwing (the ones that did before only now its worse). However remember the former wraithwing has changed significantly due to the nerf to anni barges, CCBs and MSS among other things. The core is stronger but the support pieces, the dirty little av13 support units are much worse. Of course others exist but not to quite the same level as before when a 90 pt unit jinked then hit you back 14 times with 6 shots..

Anyway everyone knows how durable the wraiths are with RP. So whats the point in theorizing on assaulting them with X assault unit of doom? (except for funsies of course).
Assault to tie them up with something throw away.. unless the spyder is dead and you can beat the unit, like fully tooled TWC/astorath DC/NDKs/etc can all do without the spyders buffs. NDKs and TWC in particular will beat wraiths even with RP up due to instant death because they inflict more then they take.
In the mean time since they have no ranged presence if bringing multiple harvests then kiling the spyders at range is not that hard, especially with cover ignoring and units packing grav, disi cannons, D, seekers or similar. Then wraiths return to normal uber undercosted assault unit thats moderately killy.

Lets see the math hammers are without rerolls, why?

Because they won't have rerolls in combat 99% of the time.

I'm pretty sure that the formation comes with it's own tarpit.

 Spellbound wrote:
You guys do realize that after they charge, and pile in, it's very unlikely they'll still be in range of the spyder, right?

They get 2.5" behind on average per Turn, they will surely stay in range.. It's too easy.

They will most likely be out of range of a spyder on a turn they charge.

wraiths might assault turn 2. Move 12+run avg 3", move 12" + run avg 3" assault avg 7" looking at being 37" into the board. Maybe closer depending on distance to target, lets say target was 32" away from deployment. Spyder is slowed by terrain[not factored into theoryhammer here], and moves 6"+avg3 run so on turn 2 the spyder is going to be on average 14" further away[assuming 32" target] from the wraiths then when they started. I am guessing you are putting the spyder beside or behind the wraiths at deployment. Even before pile ins the wraiths are out of range most likely.

at 43pts a model with only whipcoil upgrade, they are clocking in at 252pts for an unit of 6. Not exactly cheap.

If they get the charge off your looking at 24 attacks, against WS4 thats 12 hits, 2 rends on average from wound rolls. Against say TWC they will cause 2 rends and 7 other wounds on average. 2 rends might be saved if there are Storm Shields involved, the remaining 7 other wounds will see 2-3 more wounds done after saves. Looking at seeing 1-2 dead TWC average will say they had 5 models.

TW will strike back, assuming certain formation they are WS5 and they have counterattack. looking at 20-15 attacks back on average, 14-10 hits on average, wounding 12-8 times. If you play where TWC are s10 from double strength your wraiths are in trouble you just lost 4-3. If you play where TWC are str 9, you just lost 2 on average. Its similar for most armies that have any 2+ models with access to some ++ saves and good assault weapons. Wraiths are pretty much equal to elite assault elements of other armies.

wraiths are better, and they were already good but they only have rending and rending is not a reliable strategy with a max model count of 6. It works with things like Daemonettes because you can take 12[costs less than 6 wraiths btw], and on the charge they have 36 attacks which averages 18 hits, which is 50% more chances to get a rend than a max squad of wraiths(avg 12 hits on charge for max wraith squad versus WS 4), on other units[like wraiths] its kind of just a bonus chance to do something.

I think the real strength of wraiths will be eating light armor, or vehicles that have armor 10 in the rear. with str 6 and 4 attacks on the charge they are going to tear those kinds of units apart.

blaktoof- exactly. They will mulch skimmer reliant armies and the more elite xenos builds. As it should be. Most other types of builds will be just fine, especially other combat focused armies.

blaktoof wrote:


I think the real strength of wraiths will be eating light armor, or vehicles that have armor 10 in the rear. with str 6 and 4 attacks on the charge they are going to tear those kinds of units apart.

Rear armor on a wave serpent?

 D6Damager wrote:

blaktoof wrote:


I think the real strength of wraiths will be eating light armor, or vehicles that have armor 10 in the rear. with str 6 and 4 attacks on the charge they are going to tear those kinds of units apart.

Rear armor on a wave serpent?

10

6 wraiths charging a wave serpent, 24 attacks, hit on 3+, say 16 hits. even with no rends if you roll str 6+d6 say half of 16 hits are 4+ thats 8 hps off a wave serpent without any rolls on pen table even. on average 3 wraiths will do 4 hp to a vehicle they charge that has rear armor 10 with 0 rends scored.

I'll just let 'em play with a Lancer.

Kangodo wrote:

The irony, I love it <3

Re-rolling? Are you really suggesting that we add a Destroyer Lord to them?
Jet Packs and Beasts don't really match.

I'm well aware they aren't actually jump units, but some of the players around here don't really understand the beast rules, so I get in the habit of saying "they're like jump units."

And sort of. If you start with some wraiths up front in the open, you could have an IC res orb with them to guard against first turn shooting, then detach and join the unit he would be in normally. You could also do some unit switching shenanigans once the wraiths are in their base killin their dudes. That's why I said it was possible, not that you'd always have it.

 Icculus wrote:
I think we will see a lot of Nectau builds. Necron wraiths with tau missilesides and riptides to back them up.

since the two are allies of convenience

More commonly referred to as Trons.

Tau firebase cadre formation + your favorite wraithwing = sad faces

Full platoon of bare bones guardsmen with the rending order?
+
Lemun russ punisher with Pask.

How would that fair?

Maybe a couple of punishers....


Avenger strike fighters.

Fire raptor gunships.

As for dark angels, bolter banner and.... Now this may be a bit of a reason to use them, use a dark talon to drop the stasis bomb and then counter charge them with black knights, or allied thunder wolf cav or well, who the F**k knows.

Hilariously, if you can get them there, assault centurions should be quite good. Rad gren inquisitor or dark angels again to drop there T by one instant kill them (shame they have the RA, but they won't pass them all).

Screw it, everyone Take Typhons. Typhons for you, and you, and you, NOT YOU LOYALIST SCUM, for you, and sure, why not you Orks. Solution!

It sounds like a job for naked Sternguard with their poison ammo. Maybe with some prescience thrown in, too.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Screw it, everyone Take Typhons. Typhons for you, and you, and you, NOT YOU LOYALIST SCUM, for you, and sure, why not you Orks. Solution!

As long as they don't have 4+ RP. The Typhon IS a good solution to non RP Wraiths which are the only ones that are really spammable. Although it's not really one that I like, as I'm not a fan of SHV's in 40K in general.

I think this gives Tau a good reason to field the Heavy Burst Cannon on their Riptides. Back when Wraiths were T4 I was counting on strength 8 blasts to double them out, now, Tau can't ID them with anything short of a railgun and we don't carry many of those around anymore.

What about 3 punishers with 3 heavy bolters each , 87 shots all strength 5 ?

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
What about 3 punishers with 3 heavy bolters each , 87 shots all strength 5 ?

87 BS3 S5 shots against Non-RP Wraiths:

-43.5 Hits
-21.75 Wounds
-7.25 Failed Saves
=3.5 Dead Wraiths

Against Wraiths with 4+ RP

-7.25 Failed Saves
-3.63 Failed RP
=1 or 2 Dead Wraiths

Honestly the harvest detachment for RP on wraiths is nice but the whole setup through the decorian detachment is probably not better then the exterminatus book detachment granting 4+ RP with rerolls of 1. Youre taking at most 2 harvest detschments for 12 wraiths with RP. I still like the exterminatus lists better and you can still take a detachment of wraiths which are still very good.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
What about 3 punishers with 3 heavy bolters each , 87 shots all strength 5 ?

87 BS3 S5 shots against Non-RP Wraiths:

-43.5 Hits
-21.75 Wounds
-7.25 Failed Saves
=3.5 Dead Wraiths

Against Wraiths with 4+ RP

-7.25 Failed Saves
-3.63 Failed RP
=1 or 2 Dead Wraiths

Whats the point efficiency? Unfamiliar with Punisher cost.

Whip coils are a CC weapon now. Particle casters are pistols. So can't they get up to 4 attacks now?

No you can only choose 1 option from:

Particle Caster
Whip Coils
Trans Beamer

gungo wrote:
Honestly the harvest detachment for RP on wraiths is nice but the whole setup through the decorian detachment is probably not better then the exterminatus book detachment granting 4+ RP with rerolls of 1. Youre taking at most 2 harvest detschments for 12 wraiths with RP. I still like the exterminatus lists better and you can still take a detachment of wraiths which are still very good.

Um, I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure the Exterminatus Dynasty does not gain a Deatchment wide bonus to RP. You have to pay for Crypteks to get them in that case.

In addition, the Reclaimation legion gets to reroll 1's within 12' of the Overlord

EDIT: And I'm also pretty sure it's only Troops that get that Reroll, not the entire deatchment.

 Sasori wrote:

gungo wrote:
Honestly the harvest detachment for RP on wraiths is nice but the whole setup through the decorian detachment is probably not better then the exterminatus book detachment granting 4+ RP with rerolls of 1. Youre taking at most 2 harvest detschments for 12 wraiths with RP. I still like the exterminatus lists better and you can still take a detachment of wraiths which are still very good.

Um, I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure the Exterminatus Dynasty does not gain a Deatchment wide bonus to RP. You have to pay for Crypteks to get them in that case.

In addition, the Reclaimation legion gets to reroll 1's within 12' of the Overlord

EDIT: And I'm also pretty sure it's only Troops that get that Reroll, not the entire deatchment.

Correct and correct. No 4+ rp for mephrit overall, and the re-rolls are only for troops. In fairness, there is no range indicator and only other thing that gets it for the reclamation legion is tomb blades. Which....honestly....I'm ok with haha

luke1705 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

gungo wrote:
Honestly the harvest detachment for RP on wraiths is nice but the whole setup through the decorian detachment is probably not better then the exterminatus book detachment granting 4+ RP with rerolls of 1. Youre taking at most 2 harvest detschments for 12 wraiths with RP. I still like the exterminatus lists better and you can still take a detachment of wraiths which are still very good.

Um, I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure the Exterminatus Dynasty does not gain a Deatchment wide bonus to RP. You have to pay for Crypteks to get them in that case.

In addition, the Reclaimation legion gets to reroll 1's within 12' of the Overlord

EDIT: And I'm also pretty sure it's only Troops that get that Reroll, not the entire deatchment.

Correct and correct. No 4+ rp for mephrit overall, and the re-rolls are only for troops. In fairness, there is no range indicator and only other thing that gets it for the reclamation legion is tomb blades. Which....honestly....I'm ok with haha

Yeah, that makes the Decurion, far superior than Mephrit.

Some thoughts I had today:

50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).

The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.

Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
No you can only choose 1 option from:

Particle Caster
Whip Coils
Trans Beamer

Goddammit I just added whip coils to my PC wraiths this afternoon. They're going to break if I keep changing stuff.