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 koooaei wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Really, that thread failed to hit the goalpost that was set pretty early in the thread; Do mutilators have a place in anything resembling a competitive game? This wasn't because they failed to perform in the battle reports provided, it was simply due to the fact that the battle reports were extremely casual.

Noone proved otherwise. I ain't hiding from games.
I'd not call the lists casual per se. They were not common cheeze - that's for sure. But they can achieve good results on their own. Which is like 80% of the lists out there irl.

Can you provide a list and what your overall strategy is?

I run some rather unconventional CSM lists and I always found spawn to be better value than mutilators so I would never use them. I was contemplating using them in a raider with abaddon and an unmarked ml3 Sorc to go for endurance / life leech. But land raiders right lol

I could understand using a single one x 3 for deep strike and threat saturation, but even then I can't see them doing enough to really be anything special. A min unit of unmarked terminators and 3x combi melta can achieve a lot more for a bit more points and still manage to kill something just landing on the table, anything else is bonus.

 koooaei wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Really, that thread failed to hit the goalpost that was set pretty early in the thread; Do mutilators have a place in anything resembling a competitive game? This wasn't because they failed to perform in the battle reports provided, it was simply due to the fact that the battle reports were extremely casual.

Noone proved otherwise. I ain't hiding from games.
I'd not call the lists casual per se. They were not common cheeze - that's for sure. But they can achieve good results on their own. Which is like 80% of the lists out there irl.

Achieved good results how? They played against a casual CSM list, hardly a benchmark for a good list, especially if they lost.

As for them representing irl lists, depends on your meta. Personally, I haven't seen a Heavy Bolter in a decade in any list from any faction. They've been that bad that long, so naturally lists that use them over plasma, melta, or grav appear casual. While we don't spam formations to the point that some of the larger tournaments seem to do, a riptide wing or centstar is extremely common locally. It's an odd list that doesn't include it, rather than the other way around.

That being said, many of the games weren't against the top tier dexes (Necrons, Tau, SM, Eldar). I believe it was only SM out of that lineup. The ones that were against SM didn't include any of the power choices commonly taken in a competitive list. Even a few would have been fine, I'm not expecting you to face a top tier list if that isn't your meta, but you'd be hard pressed to find anything the opponents took in a large competitive tournament.

 koooaei wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Really, that thread failed to hit the goalpost that was set pretty early in the thread; Do mutilators have a place in anything resembling a competitive game? This wasn't because they failed to perform in the battle reports provided, it was simply due to the fact that the battle reports were extremely casual.

Noone proved otherwise. I ain't hiding from games.
I'd not call the lists casual per se. They were not common cheeze - that's for sure. But they can achieve good results on their own. Which is like 80% of the lists out there irl.

I'm tired of you still parading around thinking that you you beating a couple of casual lists is somehow proof that mutilators are good.

I challenge you to a game on vassel. Lets see your mutilator list play against an actual good list

If you want a warm up, I'm still willing to do BA. Although I'm not sure how much of a test that is.

 CrownAxe wrote:
.

I challenge you to a game on vassel. Lets see your mutilator list play against an actual good list

^THIS should be the way how we settle it. Finally some empirical research, that we can disprove and repeat. ( as long as you record it)

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
This thread almost completely ignores IA:13, which is the single best way to make CSMs a powerful faction.

Take 2 Sicaran Battle Tanks and a Fire Raptor, then pick anything else on a CSM list and you have a pretty good army.

So basically take as little of CODEX CHAOS SPACE MARINE units as possible and you'll have a decent army. As a loyalist marine player can feel their pain.

Not so much take only a little from the Codex, more like: "without Forgeworld assistance, don't even think about a competitive game". I have only recently jumped into CSM, and without Forgeworld, I wouldn't even bother fielding this army in its current state. With it, however, I feel like they can at least stand up and make a game of it.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
CSM being a bad codex can be summed up with one basic truth

The more Power armored space marines you take in the list, the lower your chances of winning become. Until they fix that it will always be a bad book in my eye because it utterly fails to represent the faction it's reportedly trying to display.

Spot on.

Even more so when you realise that GW themselves don't seem to quite know what Faction they are actually trying to display?

Legions?
God-specific Forces?
Renegades?
Lost and the Damned?
Dark Mechanicus?

We literally have elements of ALL of these yet no focus on one or the other. Furthermore, it's like we have the WORST aspects of each...

Legions - archaic weaponry and equipment - no access to assault cannons, plasma cannons or multimeltas (outside of certain units), combi-weapons instead of storm bolters, no machine spirits, no vehicle variants.

God-specific Forces - overcosted mark system that can be applied across the board, God-specific special characters (that are probably the only way to get a reliable leader for one such force).

Renegades - Mediocre WS/BS and lack of ATSKNF as 'not Legion elites'.

Lost and the Damned - cultists shoehorned in as troops choices, Dark Apostles, again lack of solid weaponry.

Dark Mechanicus - more than half our vehicles are daemon engines. OH BOY. I really want WS 3 and BS 3 vehicles.

We've not had a solid 'theme' since 3.5. I know GW like to make 'jack of all trades' army books that allow people to field multiple variants...but this really doesn't work with Chaos any more than it works with C:SM and Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights.

Ideally? Ideally I'd like to see...

Legions - expensive troops, improved statlines, veteran skills across the board, solid morale through the army - small, elite and hard hitting force. Perhaps even with actual Dreadnoughts (rather than Helbrutes) and Legion specific trait system.

God Forces - Solid Mark system, seperate books for each. Nurgle forces with FNP across the board and improved poison. Khorne forces that have improved base stats and strong anti-psyker. Daemonkin would have been ideal if it had addressed the base problems with the CSM components. Slaanesh forces with Sonic weapon options and combat drugs. Tzeentch forces with power psyker options and protection, perhaps even modifiers to make them more reliable compared to others.

Renegades - Variety of more 'modern' equipment and weapons, SM level statlines. Lower morale.

Lost and the Damned - We have the Renegades and Heretics list in IA 13. Can we take this, refine this into a book with fluff and formations and everything and make it so?

Dark Mechanicus - All the Daemon Engines, Dark Mech troops, truly chaotic and potent weaponry from the forges. They should be glass cannons that hit like a truck but can be easy to shatter.

I can see it already. The CSM update will be the black legion supplement re-released with a decurion in it Orks style.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said. Khorne Berzerkers in dreadclaws is nothing to sneeze at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly. I don't get why most CSM players haven't bit the bullet and added dreadclaws to their armies. They are amazaaaa!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dreadclaws are possibly the best assault vehicle in the game. Just don't put your über characters in them (see daemonic possession). Give me 3 dreadclaws and 3x 10 man units of Khorne Berzerkers plus some anti armour (las preds or havocs or vindicators) and I'll take apart any tau or Eldar or Necron list. Dreadclaws can even chase down scatbikes! (They are fast skimmers you know.) Yes jet bikes can turbo boost very, but if they do, they aren't firing. The moment they slow down to fire... Boom! Assaulted by Khorne Berzerkers at point blank range. Ok if they have multiple wraithknights I'm dead. But what can you do. Wraithknights should be banned or their price increased by TOs.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Really, that thread failed to hit the goalpost that was set pretty early in the thread; Do mutilators have a place in anything resembling a competitive game? This wasn't because they failed to perform in the battle reports provided, it was simply due to the fact that the battle reports were extremely casual.

Noone proved otherwise. I ain't hiding from games.
I'd not call the lists casual per se. They were not common cheeze - that's for sure. But they can achieve good results on their own. Which is like 80% of the lists out there irl.

I'm tired of you still parading around thinking that you you beating a couple of casual lists is somehow proof that mutilators are good.

I challenge you to a game on vassel. Lets see your mutilator list play against an actual good list

I'm up for it! Interested to see how they perform myself. It'd be even more interesting against something death-starish.

to Konrax
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=posts&action=list&topic_id=677557&viewResults=true




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kavish wrote:
I can see it already. The CSM update will be the black legion supplement re-released with a decurion in it Orks style.

You mean that there would be an over-bloated core that'd only function with a command formation of Abaddon + 2 lords + chosen in one undividable squad?
We're still hoping for a 3.5 CSM re-release...

The Black Legion supplement is interesting in that it actually reveals how the designers think CSM should play. They actually advocate taking 20-man squads with no upgrades and charging them up the field. This makes for very entertaining games - for your opponent. Perfect punching bag army.

The UM list doesn't appear to be as min/maxed as your list is.

I play against Dark Angels, Eldar, Necrons, Space wolves, and Tau occasionally with my friends and they field much nastier lists than the UM list you showed.

I don't think mutilators are a good option either way, I have been tempted to experiment with them but I just see so many better options for the points.

For 370 points I could take a tzeentch oblit unit and an ml3 unmarked Sorc and try to roll for either endurance or invisibility which would bring a lot more utility.

Hell one of the lists I run has 9 oblits and 4 sorcs with a Chaos knight. 40 min cultists and a heldrake and away we go.

I can see they have some effectiveness, but it's nothing to write home about.

The whole point was to show that they're better than most people think. And they are commonly described as one of the worst in the dex. I think, they're pretty solid for their tasks. There were also some games against iron hands + IK and some IG.

I've also ran some infiltration lists with 20 footslogging marines + Huron + Cypher and they performed better than expected. It was back in 6-th and i'm not sure if they'll hold their ground now. They'll struggle, most likely, but the list also needs a few tests with what's around nowadays. And that's my main gripe.

I guarantee they're better than Khorne berserkers.

That sounds like it has grav/Sl bait written all over it. Foot slogging blobs rarely work this edition especially in Maelstorm missions which are common in tournaments.

Tau would love this unit as well, big blob with no invuls. Coordinated fire power is going to rip them apart.

 motyak wrote:
Keep it to the topic at hand. We can leave the very specific "are mutilators good or not" argument along here and focus on other things, things that didn't spawn an X page thread of bickering and mod warnings.[/color]

So, about that... Can we please not see that same obnoxious thread reborn here?

Martel732 wrote:
I guarantee they're better than Khorne berserkers.

Ahahahahha...No.

So we are debating which unit is the worst in a codex that is considered the worst one out?

Can I make my vote for thousand sons?

I suspect that I can squeeze more out of AP 3 bolter rounds than foot dudes who need to assault. I'm just guessing here.

i'm on page 6 of that mess of a thread and i still don't see where/how mutilators are assaulting out of reserves. can someone narrow this down for me please?

 Kavish wrote:
I can see it already. The CSM update will be the black legion supplement re-released with a decurion in it Orks style.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said. Khorne Berzerkers in dreadclaws is nothing to sneeze at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly. I don't get why most CSM players haven't bit the bullet and added dreadclaws to their armies. They are amazaaaa!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dreadclaws are possibly the best assault vehicle in the game. Just don't put your über characters in them (see daemonic possession). Give me 3 dreadclaws and 3x 10 man units of Khorne Berzerkers plus some anti armour (las preds or havocs or vindicators) and I'll take apart any tau or Eldar or Necron list. Dreadclaws can even chase down scatbikes! (They are fast skimmers you know.) Yes jet bikes can turbo boost very, but if they do, they aren't firing. The moment they slow down to fire... Boom! Assaulted by Khorne Berzerkers at point blank range. Ok if they have multiple wraithknights I'm dead. But what can you do. Wraithknights should be banned or their price increased by TOs.

You have completely missed the point.

This is a thread of why CSM in general are referred to as bad. Almost all the points relate to their core Codex having units that are severely overcosted and forcing them to bloat even more on points to be comparable to other Codexes.

In the same respect, we have acknowledged that yes, IA 13 is a very solid book. HOWEVER, that is part of the problem. I can't think of any other Codex that has a mandatory £47 book purchase (and then a further £59 per Dreadclaw) in order to be considered 'viable'. That doesn't make a faction viable. That cripples it even more. Welcome to CSM, don't forget to pay a £47 tax for this book and then a further £X depending on which vehicles you want.

Played a game last night Vs BA players, 3000pts of Scouts, Scout bikes and TACS.

The guy litteraly said to me that we had no right to complain about our codex after a scout squad was destroyed by a unit of KDK Bloodcrushers...

L
O
L...

ok so i just read this thread from beginning to end and i have to say... this is the best thread i have ever been in, lots and lots and lots and lots of salt and bs

Loyalists called, they said something about finding a large cache of Relic Blades all of a sudden!

My Inquisitor has a Kai gun for sale too ...

Edit:

I meant to add that, for me, one of the things that always stands out when people say "CSM aren't terrible at all ..." is that they almost always follow that statement with "if you take this data slate, those two forge world books and ally them with Demons they're pretty good!". This thread has seen a lot of that in action. In my opinion, if you have to use a bunch of other non-codex things to make one codex work, that's a pretty good indicator of problems.

Also, @oldzoggy:

You mentioned wanting the argument to shift to people saying "Our book isn't competitive with the 7.5 books." While it's true that it's not, it also wasn't competitive with the 7th ed books nor the other 6th ed books. The one and only thing that saved it was that ridiculous "turret FAQ" that made the Helldrake borderline OP for a little while.

Personally, I'd like to see all books turned up to 11 like the Eldar book, but failing that, I really don't even need CSM to get a "bump in stature". I just don't want what happened to us with our last book. We got a 6th edition codex with a bunch of new units that were all based on 4th edition game mechanics and costed very nearly on 2nd ed points scales. Half our units were DOA in that 6th ed book. IMO that's the main complaint that a lot of us have.

I once told my best friend I was playing CSM, so he brought Tau, boy was he surprised to see that Detachment of CSM attached to my Daemons

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I once told my best friend I was playing CSM, so he brought Tau, boy was he surprised to see that Detachment of CSM attached to my Daemons

Lulling your opponent into complacency is an excellent use for CSM!

"I'm bringing CSM."

"Great! I can finally try out my Waaagh-band!"

"Surprise! It's Be'lakor, 20 cultists and the rest is Chaos Daemons! Fooled you, sucka!!"

The reason for the lack of updates - unless you count Khorne Daemonkin - is fairly simple; Chaos Space Marines require a massive overhaul. GW managers are fairly open about how significant of a revamp it needs and how much sales for the faction tanked (it used to be a major seller, now if I remember correctly Tau is the second most popular army behind Space Marines at the moment). Whether GW delivers on that promise....well, Eldar, Necrons and current Space Marines exist. If we can get a codex like Eldar purely in the sense that every unit is strong (you can even make the weakest units work fairly well in that book) but cut out the most ridiculous stuff I think all Chaos players would be howling with joy. The Necron book is also a good example for this kind of codex design. Chaos players want numerous viable builds for both competitive and narrative driven play, give it to them!

I'll just repost what I wrote a few weeks ago..

The reason it's taking so long is because Chaos sells. The CSM Tac Squad was still in their list of 2015's best sellers, despite the Codex being wonky and the whole range being widely acknowledged as being out of date.

GW as an entity is lazy, why invest time and money in a range and development if whatever it is you've got out there is already ticking over nicely?

I'd normally advise people to stop buying, but then given their inability to detect why sales may drop off, they'd be just as likely to Squat them if that happened, so we're essentially screwed either way.

In short, if I bring a fun CSM army with no consideration as to whether a unit is OP or not, and my opponent does the same, he will have a medium to large advantage....so long as he does not also play CSM

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'll just repost what I wrote a few weeks ago..

The reason it's taking so long is because Chaos sells. The CSM Tac Squad was still in their list of 2015's best sellers, despite the Codex being wonky and the whole range being widely acknowledged as being out of date.

GW as an entity is lazy, why invest time and money in a range and development if whatever it is you've got out there is already ticking over nicely?

I'd normally advise people to stop buying, but then given their inability to detect why sales may drop off, they'd be just as likely to Squat them if that happened, so we're essentially screwed either way.

That's one kit, sales for the faction as a whole have tanked massively compared to....say, four or five years ago. No faction has ever been at loyalist Space Marine level for sales but Chaos Space Marines were the closest, now that's simply not the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It wasn't a typical sales list if Smaug is at the top by the by. Look at it this way; a single Imperial Guard Infantry Squad is $48 AUD. A single Chaos Space Marine squad is $62 AUD. Even if the Chaos Space Marine kit sold a lower number of individual kits, the Imperial Guard kit would still have a ways to catch up on total profit generated which is clearly what they used here. Also, the Chaos Marine kit sat at #18 out of 28 entries, bested by Harlequin Troupes (a very rarely seen army), Blood Angel Tactical Marines, regular Tactical Marines and Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard (also not a massively popular army) going purely off of Troops choices. Not a single other Chaos Space Marine unit was on that list.

You've made some pretty major assumptions unless you're in possession of an internal GW sales report.

Firstly, a more expensive kit doesn't mean a more profitable one

Secondly, you're really going to have to back up your claims as to relative sales volumes.

Thirdly, every other kit that you cite is a new or recent release, and in the case of Harlequins and AM kits that have been hugely anticipated for a long time and will have sold many units to people with no intention of building an army, and especially in the case of AM, I'd take issue with your statement they're not massively popular, even in the 40K cemetery that is my local club, some people got excited enough to buy an army.

Finally, there's a lot of factions with one or no models on that list. (We're there any Necrons? Can't remember.) I don't think one other faction got a kit released as long ago as CSM on the list, that's for sure.