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The other factor to consider of course is that technically....

Every SM release could be seen as a CSM release. Because the CSM models are so damn fugly it's not uncommon for people to buy and convert up SM to use instead. Or heck, even WFB Chaos.

This thread doesn't make good reading for someone considering a CSM army

Gerinako wrote:
This thread doesn't make good reading for someone considering a CSM army

In the Immortal Words of Denethor II.

FLEE! FLEE FOR YOUR LIVES!

We just have a lot of anger and salty tears from the old days.....

I would love an updated Csm codex to 7.5 quality.

Mind you the current codex feels on par with the Horus Heresy lists, so thats ok by in my book. I dont feel op when fighting a non primarch 30k list

I guess I am one of the few players out there who still regularly play my CSM army and actually have fun with it. Yes, everything is more expensive and no as good as the newer codexes, but it's not completely fubared to the point where the army is unplayable.

Granted, a good list won't see many power armors, but with maulerfiends, spawns, sorcerers on bikes and daemon princes can still work. Ally in a Chaos Knight, and you got a fairly good list going on.

Look at the bright side; People will ALWAYS underestimate you if you play CSM, so you can have some fun with that

 Nordicus wrote:
I guess I am one of the few players out there who still regularly play my CSM army and actually have fun with it. Yes, everything is more expensive and no as good as the newer codexes, but it's not completely fubared to the point where the army is unplayable.

Granted, a good list won't see many power armors, but with maulerfiends, spawns, sorcerers on bikes and daemon princes can still work. Ally in a Chaos Knight, and you got a fairly good list going on.

Look at the bright side; People will ALWAYS underestimate you if you play CSM, so you can have some fun with that

I play CSM as well. I can have fun wig it but I definitely have to make peace with the fact that I'm going to lose unless I am extremely lucky.

Of course I still play CSM. But I'm not gonna ignore that the codex is pretty bad. It's not abysmal, but it's pretty far from good. Heck, it's not even mediocre when you consider how fluff (in)accurate it is.

But hey, I'm not playing CSM because I want to win, I'm playing CSM cuz I want to play CSM. They're made of awesome. And you can still win in a less competitive meta with like-minded opponents. Despite the shape of the codex.

Why are Chaos space marines referred to as bad?

They have an old codex which desperately needs renewing.
They have old models, some would say ugly.
They are hard to win with against even semi competitive opponents.
To be semi competitive ourselves you either have to follow one build, or go down the expensive Forgeworld route.

I still however love them and won't be changing, not sure what that says about me or Chaos Space Marines!

Gerinako wrote:
This thread doesn't make good reading for someone considering a CSM army

If you think CSM are cool, and you are not planning on playing competitively, go for it.
In a non-competitive game they can do just fine. Your goal is to have fun.
If you plan on winning tourneys, don't buy them right now. Start with daemons then ally in CSM.

 Nordicus wrote:
Granted, a good list won't see many power armors, but with maulerfiends, spawns, sorcerers on bikes and daemon princes can still work. Ally in a Chaos Knight, and you got a fairly good list going on.

This past weekend I played with someone who used two maulerfiends an allied chaos knight, a DP, and allied daemons, and it was decent.

The maulerfiends were fast, which matched his daemonettes and slaanesh chariots, seekers. He had everything set up for a turn two assault, and the maulerfiends did get in and do some work.

The problem with maulerfiends is the lack of attacks at WS3. He was killing 1-3 of my models per turn, which was not enough to break the units before my wraithknight walked up and started squishing maulerfiends. If the maulerfiend has more attacks, it would be much better, but it's just not enough by itself to be much of a threat.

 labmouse42 wrote:
The problem with maulerfiends is the lack of attacks at WS3. He was killing 1-3 of my models per turn, which was not enough to break the units before my wraithknight walked up and started squishing maulerfiends. If the maulerfiend has more attacks, it would be much better, but it's just not enough by itself to be much of a threat.

The Maulerfiends are TEQ, MC and AV killers though - Send them in a blob of units and they will stay there for the rest of the game. Send 2 of them against a wraithknight, with lashin tendrils and they can do a number on him as he only has 1 attack to hit them with.

They are great for many things - But units with 10+ models are not it

The Maulerfiends are TEQ, MC and AV killers though - Send them in a blob of units and they will stay there for the rest of the game. Send 2 of them against a wraithknight, with lashin tendrils and they can do a number on him as he only has 1 attack to hit them with.

They are great for many things - But units with 10+ models are not it

Exactly. I would have KILLED to have Maulerfiends in 5th ed to battle some of those parking lot lists.

Mauler fiends would be pretty awesome if they had the WHFB version of thunderstomp. That would be pretty good.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Mauler fiends would be pretty awesome if they had the WHFB version of thunderstomp. That would be pretty good.

Even just a basic bump in WS up to 4 or 5, and +1A would make them markedly better.

They don't need to waylay entire units in one go like those obnoxious 'Blendernaughts' that BA's got in 5th, but for feth's sake, they should at least be a little more competent at hitting things than a stupid Guardsman!

I feel like all the Daemon units are going to be a lot stronger with the "Daemon of X" rules.

That would include the vehicles with possession too.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Mauler fiends would be pretty awesome if they had the WHFB version of thunderstomp. That would be pretty good.

Even just a basic bump in WS up to 4 or 5, and +1A would make them markedly better.

They don't need to waylay entire units in one go like those obnoxious 'Blendernaughts' that BA's got in 5th, but for feth's sake, they should at least be a little more competent at hitting things than a stupid Guardsman!

Indeed BS3 in something that is supposedly a viciously murderous close combat mix of daemon and machine is... weird, at best, and flat-out ridiculous at worst. Same for the relatively low number of attacks. A Maulerfiend should be one of those things that either you shoot to death or it mauls your units to shreds. Currently the best thing it does is... tanking, thanks to the tendrils :|

Yoyoyo wrote:
I feel like all the Daemon units are going to be a lot stronger with the "Daemon of X" rules.

That would include the vehicles with possession too.

Certainly with Nurgle and Slaanesh, though unfortunately Khorne continues to be a poopoo one regarding vehicles.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I feel like all the Daemon units are going to be a lot stronger with the "Daemon of X" rules.

That would include the vehicles with possession too.

Depends on how/if they change up the 'Daemon of X' rules... Having 'Daemon of Khorne' for example is currently 99.9% useless on any daemon engine, as all it does if give Furious Charge + Hatred: Daemons of Slaanesh.
So that Maulerfiend for example, gets to add +1S to its already capped S10 attacks! Brilliant!!

Likewise, 'Daemon of Slaanesh is again, mostly pointless as the only benefit daemon engines get is the slight speed boost... Rending is like Furious Charge, completely pointless.
Daemon of Tzeentch on the other hand needs to be overhauled, as it's far too easy now to boost daemonic invulns to 3++ or 2++ levels, and re-rolled 2++ saves are beyond broken as all gak. Meanwhile, Daemon of Tzeentch no longer has any real benefit for psykers, despite magic being Tzeentch's supposedly 'main thing'.

really, the only solid 'Daemon of X' rule that is fine, is Daemon of Nurgle, since Stealth + Shrouding is a universal boost to everything.

I'd rather that the CSM Daemon Engines get their own expanded unique bonuses, rather than just slapping the near universally pointless 'Daemon of X' rules on them and calling it 'fixed'.

Gerinako wrote:
This thread doesn't make good reading for someone considering a CSM army

Ya think? Seriously, though, I disagree. If you're considering CSM, you should know what you're getting into and be able to make a fully informed decision. The thread's ugly, but so is the codex and having to buy however many 100s of dollars (or pounds, euros, etc) in FW models and books to make it somewhat good actually makes it WORSE.

 Battlesong wrote:

Gerinako wrote:
This thread doesn't make good reading for someone considering a CSM army

Ya think? Seriously, though, I disagree. If you're considering CSM, you should know what you're getting into and be able to make a fully informed decision. The thread's ugly, but so is the codex and having to buy however many 100s of dollars (or pounds, euros, etc) in FW models and books to make it somewhat good actually makes it WORSE.

The model line itself is also the worst in the game, with the exception of the soon to be extinct SoB.

When you realise that even SoB can at least build almost all their actual upgrades from within their own (albeit shrinking) model line, while your army can't, then you known you're the king of turd castle!

 Nordicus wrote:

Granted, a good list won't see many power armors, but with maulerfiends, spawns, sorcerers on bikes and daemon princes can still work. Ally in a Chaos Knight, and you got a fairly good list going on.

And thats why the codex is Bad.

If you take codex CHAOS SPACE MARINES, you'd expect that the bassis for your army is SPACE MARINES of Chaos, not Cultists, Fiends, Drakes and Knights.

When a guy play Space Wolves, You don't see only one Squad of TWC and 2 x 5 scouts with nothing but Fenrissian wolves and Dreads/Flyers, you actually see Grey hunters and Bloodclaws in it.

The army and faction can be fun, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that the Codex is badly designed.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:

Gerinako wrote:
This thread doesn't make good reading for someone considering a CSM army

Ya think? Seriously, though, I disagree. If you're considering CSM, you should know what you're getting into and be able to make a fully informed decision. The thread's ugly, but so is the codex and having to buy however many 100s of dollars (or pounds, euros, etc) in FW models and books to make it somewhat good actually makes it WORSE.

The model line itself is also the worst in the game, with the exception of the soon to be extinct SoB.

When you realise that even SoB can at least build almost all their actual upgrades from within their own (albeit shrinking) model line, while your army can't, then you known you're the king of turd castle!

In my opinion SoB have currently one of the best model lines in the entire 40k range. The problem is how expensive they are.

The modals are cool but since they are metal and mostly one or two pieces any sort of conversion or customization is a hassle.

I agree. Customization with metal is a pain in the arse.

To the original topic, the fact they can't unlock Bikers as troops is lame as well. Not that it matters because the Loyalist ones are going to be better (even Carcharodons, arguably one of the worst Chapter Tactics, can easily gain Rage followed by a possible S5 from Tyberos, and be equals/superior with any Spawn or CSM Biker).

I actually find it weird as a whole that Biker HQ's unlock Biker Troops, but Jump Pack and Terminator HQ's don't unlock anything. This is a different topic though.

I actually like that CSM are an underdog army.

It makes list theory really interesting.

Everyone at the LGS loves to play you.

Every time you win its awesome.

I noticed at one point that I'm drawn to underdog armies - CSM, Orks, Blood Angels, Dark Angels (used to be underdog but not so much anymore), Tyranids (I just use 1 flyrant).

Making a list and playing a game with one means you have to think a lot more tactically

it's not good for the health of the hobby that we have the power range we do in modern 40k. when I started in 5th it wasn't great but GW has brought it to a height I didn't think was possible.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
it's not good for the health of the hobby that we have the power range we do in modern 40k. when I started in 5th it wasn't great but GW has brought it to a height I didn't think was possible.

I think what was lost was the game as it was before they combined apocalypse with regular 40k.

Apocalypse was cool as this sort of grand, unbound-like, game.

And the normal game back then had some charm with the more smaller skirmish fighting that relied more on troops (the only objective grabbers in the game)

I think that having half your army in 1 or 2 large figures makes it a bit less tactical.

It would be interesting if they added a rule which was something like 25-50% of your army had to be troops choices.

 chaosmarauder wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
it's not good for the health of the hobby that we have the power range we do in modern 40k. when I started in 5th it wasn't great but GW has brought it to a height I didn't think was possible.

I think what was lost was the game as it was before they combined apocalypse with regular 40k.

Apocalypse was cool as this sort of grand, unbound-like, game.

And the normal game back then had some charm with the more smaller skirmish fighting that relied more on troops (the only objective grabbers in the game)

I think that having half your army in 1 or 2 large figures makes it a bit less tactical.

It would be interesting if they added a rule which was something like 25-50% of your army had to be troops choices.

I'd rather a rule that instead limited SHV's/GMC's to no more than 20-25% of your total list...

Even 25% Troops is horrible for half the game's armies. Daemons for example would drop into the garbage heap, as Troops is the worst & most boring section of our list. The only thing you'd accomplish, would be to shoehorn Daemons even further into only ever running Clown Car lists.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
I actually like that CSM are an underdog army.

It makes list theory really interesting.

Everyone at the LGS loves to play you.

Every time you win its awesome.

I noticed at one point that I'm drawn to underdog armies - CSM, Orks, Blood Angels, Dark Angels (used to be underdog but not so much anymore), Tyranids (I just use 1 flyrant).

Making a list and playing a game with one means you have to think a lot more tactically

That's basically my point either. CSM are clearly not the strongest army out there but they're also not as bad as people draw them to be and can win games. And you feel more accomplished winning with underdog army.

They can win games, but it how you win the games that is important. What models get used in the winning of the games. Most likely they are Plague Marines, Spawn, Bikers, Heldrakes, Obliterators and then forge world on top. Or daemon allies.