Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: This has an impact on the setting as it shows how dogma and tradition have possibly handicapped the Astartes and further emphasises the difference of the dystopian Imperium and our (more) liberal lives today.
Then I don't think it works as intended. Because you just see soooo many people explaining you that this is because only manly male man can do the work a space marine do, meaning the “dystopian” and “handicap” part flew completely over their head. GW would definitely need to write the new fluff differently if they wanted to carry that vibe around the all-male rule in the future. The Decree Passive works way better. It is written directly in the fluff blurb that this was about respecting the words of the Decree while not respecting the spirit of it.
How so? If I were to retcon the existence of the Decree Passive, there is no reason for Sisters to be all female. And please do not think I'm insinuating that ONLY a man could do the job of an Astartes, because when a woman is hopped up on half the drugs an Astartes is, she'd be just as good. That much is obvious. I would also prefer if you didn't use obviously baiting terms like "manly male man". It's not appreciated.
What I'm saying is that the Decree Passive is just as valid a reason for mono-gender as the lack of any female Primarchs or Legionaries made by the Emperor being misinterpreted as holy writ for Astartes only to be male. The Emperor, in setting, had all his Marines be male (either through scientific limitation or personal bias) and as a result of the Imperium's stagnation and reliance on dogma and holy writ (as also seen in the Codex, which Guilliman didn't intend to be used as such), only males are Astartes.
If you want to retcon that, I see no reason why the Decree is just as retcon-able.
Weboflies wrote: GW comes up with some flimsy technicality to mask the fact that that they thought it'd be cool to have a bunch of large breasted females running around in sexy, form-fitting power armour, and that's essential fluff, and the all-male nature of Space Marines is superfluous?
I didn't say it was essential. I said it worked to carry something, and that if we were to remove it, it would be nice to have some other fluff element added to carry over the same notion. I.E. It's NOT essential, but it still serve some purpose. I don't feel the all-male marine thing serve some purpose, given that it is as far as I know only one line in the “Creation for a Space Marine” old article…
Except that it is a noted part of 40k lore and fluff.
What I'm saying is that due to doctrine and stagnation, as well as the meta-knowledge and inspiration of the Knights Templar and other monastic groups, Space Marines have only been considered as male in Imperial culture. To change that would be just the same as retconning the Decree Passive. Basically, marines being male is the same thing as sororitas being female. Mono-gender is fine, as long as it is justified. In my eyes, it is, for both factions.
BrianDavion wrote: Indeed. SW's going strong, here's the thing... SW didn't suddenly retcon Luke into a woman. retcon Han into an asian guy etc, they simply introduced a new character within the lore who just happened to yes be a woman. that IMHO is the way to do it. don't issue retcons. just bring in new characters. an intreasting character is an intreasting character.
Nobody is calling to retcon Marneus Calgar, Yarrick or the Emperor into women. We are just calling for new Space Marines SC that are women.
No, you're retconning the fact that Marines have only ever been officially portrayed as male - unless you can find withstanding evidence that they have otherwise been portrayed as female.
Slightly related: just found “Disney Princess reimagined as Space Marines”, and it's… surprisingly nice ^^. You will find : - Khornate Ariel - Black Templar Snow-White - Raven Guard Jasmine - Space Wolf Beauty (I think? I'm not very good at Disney princesses).
I'd been shown these about three weeks ago, and I won't lie, it's fun! But that's all it is - fun, a bit of humour. If you want to back these as acceptable reasons, then I would expect Disney to make their Disney Princesses male, after seeing some of the good genderbent work out there. This is a bit of humour and artistic license - not grounds for retconning the Astartes.
(It's Belle, by the way - it does mean beauty in French though )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/30 12:10:48
I did. Someone who would like to remove the archaic, monastic, brotherly aspect of the space marines was unironically inviting someone who disagreed to join a monastic order rather than continuing to enjoy the established canon of a game of toy soldiers.
Oh, cry me a river because people are calling you out when you say sexist stuff. If you can't handle opposing opinions, you have no deal pretending to defend “free speech”.
Here, allow me to make it easy for you.
- If, when you say something, people are allowed to criticize it and say it was bad of you to say it, that's free speech. Yeah, even if they “label your opinions as hateful”. It's their freedom of speech.
- If, when you say something, the government send you to prison, that is speech being controlled.
No-one is calling me out personally. I fully support people criticizing my ideas and other peoples. You are welcome to disagree with me if you like.
I do not welcome intimidation, vandalism, job loss, arrests and trials for dissenting opinions.
In my opinion, a range of female guard models would be nice. The gorilla-like cadians are due for an overhaul and some ball/socket legs/torsos could facilitate narrower torsos on the same legs. Likewise a celebrated female officer (please be Sulla) would be a cool addition to the model range.
EngulfedObject wrote: And female SMs would replace the SoB completely. Just think of SMs as brothers of battle and there you go.
Or just go Eldar, there's a good balance there.
Hum, what about no? SM, male or female, don't have what I like about Sisters of Battle, and neither do Eldar. Similarly, Sisters of Battle, even male ones, wouldn't have what someone like, say, Ashiraya likes about Space Marines.
They are different armies, with a different fluff, a different aesthetics, and different rules. They are not interchangeable.
I think you hit on something here, the armies we choose to play is a very personal thing. We choose them because they mean something to us; as you said “They are different armies, with a different fluff, a different aesthetics, and different rules. They are not interchangeable.” We are drawn to the armies that appeal (product advertisement focus also plays a big role) to us and a lot of people like the background fluff, aesthetic look and fraternal brother in arms nature of the Space marines as it makes them distinct from the other factions; are we really going to say that they are wrong for doing so?
Weboflies wrote: GW comes up with some flimsy technicality to mask the fact that that they thought it'd be cool to have a bunch of large breasted females running around in sexy, form-fitting power armour, and that's essential fluff, and the all-male nature of Space Marines is superfluous?
I didn't say it was essential. I said it worked to carry something, and that if we were to remove it, it would be nice to have some other fluff element added to carry over the same notion.
I.E. It's NOT essential, but it still serve some purpose. I don't feel the all-male marine thing serve some purpose, given that it is as far as I know only one line in the “Creation fo a Space Marine” old article…
But what would female-space marines actually bring to the setting, exactly what purpose do you feel they would serve? Other than being “nice to have” (not trying to be horrible here just genuinely curious). You state that you don't feel that all-male marine serve any purpose and thats is your opinion. Others feel very differently and that they do in fact add a great deal to the dystopian feel of the setting. The world of 40k is not a nice place nor should it be portrayed as such.
SolarCross wrote: I dunno to me "oversensitive and perpetually outraged" sounds like a pretty fitting description of yourself and SJWs in general.
Rule #1. I didn't insult your personally.
On this I agree let’s try to keep any personal attacks out of the debate please.
Nobody is calling to retcon Marneus Calgar, Yarrick or the Emperor into women. We are just calling for new Space Marines SC that are women.
Slightly related: just found “Disney Princess reimagined as Space Marines”, and it's… surprisingly nice ^^.
You will find :
- Khornate Ariel
- Black Templar Snow-White
- Raven Guard Jasmine
- Space Wolf Beauty (I think? I'm not very good at Disney princesses).
The question is way? what is the need to do so? You have such a large number of factions to choose from why focus on the Marines? I don’t think anyone is going to deny that there needs to be easy access for new players regardless of their gender. For example i would love to see a SOB starter box set released alongside the SM one. If female-space marines are to be introduced then it has to be done properly and not just dropped on us the same way that the centurion armour was.
There are better places to start adding more female troops and SC models into the range then going straight for the brands figureheads.
As for the disney space marines i like the art but if you think female-space marines are going to look anything like that then you are going to be disappointed.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 15:49:01
No you insulted a bunch of other people not here to defend themselves. As the japanese say "It's mirror time!".
SolarCross wrote: No one who likes fantasy / sci-fi, I think, is allergic to any depiction of "a woman being capable whilst wearing sensible clothing". The fantasy / sci-fi genre has its roots in Nordic mythology which in strong contrast to the Abrahamic thing where women are generally on the same level as dogshit, Nordic mythology has plenty of robustly male characters but also plenty of capable and confident female characters.. The Valkyrie, Sisters of Norn etc. There is a direct line from Nordic mythology through medieval fairy tales to Tolkein and later Star Wars and the rest and throughout there are plenty of strong female characters who take care of business, often times they are the main hero(ine). GW is on that same pagan storytelling path and they do too have plenty of interesting and strong female characters. There is nothing to complain about in the nordic / euro pagan storytelling traditions of which GW is a part.
Sure. That's why you are explaining to me why female SM would be SOOOOOOOO terrible. Also, the sci-fi genre has its root in Nordic mythology. Also GW has plenty of strong female character in sensible clothing, hence why there are like 3 female SC that have a model, and one of them is wearing a bikini .
Ret-conning space marines as lady marines is soooo terrible for the same reason as ret-conning snow white as bloke just to pander to SJW male rights activists or whatever would be terrible. Creatures like that have no business messing with art just to scratch some itchy mental illness they have. Let the creators be! Or be a creator if you think you can do better. Otherwise GTFO.
I totally agree with you that Tolkien would never have given any female character a bikini armor though, that man had way too much self-respect to do this. But your main error here is to conflate the so-called “geeks” that cried us a river because of Rey and Finn with every fan of fantasy or sci-fi. Those so-called “geeks” sure love to pretend that they are representative of the whole, but that's complete bs. I am not saying fantasy is misogynistic. I am saying we have had an infection of horrible cry-bullies that whines and whines every time there is a female character that is more than Suckerpunch-type spank material. “You are censoring her by putting her in a burka”, they cry out, when the camera stop focusing on her butt, and she starts wearing armor that looks protective.
Fantasy is all about our inner hopes, wishes, fears and fantasies. Some of that is sexual. Tolkien didn't tread that path but others have. Bikini armour is expression of male sexual fantasy (also maybe lesbian fantasy?), bare chested buffed up blokes is an expression of female sexual fantasy (also maybe homoerotic fantasy?). Fantasy doesn't have to have a sexual element but there is something twisted and perverse in denying it can ever be there at all. Abrahamic attitudes have been creeping into our Nordic & hellenic mythology for millenia and it seems it is still going on. Where once puritans frothed and fumed over the Morte d'Arthur we now have SJW's frothing and fuming over Star Wars, Video games and now 40k... If one doesn't like euro culture GTFO I say. The middle-east welcomes you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/30 14:51:14
Yikes. Reading through this thread has been a rough one. Such a proverbial mine field, this topic is. I'll tread lightly.
The way I see it is, I'm not really sure what female Space Marines would actually add OR accomplish. As others have said, GW would have to go and effectively retcon years of fluff to make it work, or they'd have to come up with some half baked idea as to why female Space Marines either exist now or 'They were here all along, guys! Honest!'...and I've seen how people react to that method of story telling when it comes to wargear/vehicles being added.
Then comes the problem of somehow making their presence known on the table itself. As we've already established, the armor for Marines is so massively bulky, there's no way to tell who or what is under the armor. 'Boob plates' aren't a sufficient option because...the armor is so BIG, I would believe their breasts have plenty of room in there and don't need to be encapsulated in metal.
Some suggest you'd tell the difference by the removal of helmets...but would you? Would you really? I'll try not to beat the dead horse too much but, the process of becoming a Marine is quite grueling and not exactly pleasant, and results in some very generic looking men who often lack any hair and overly defined features. At best, you may get a woman who looks more akin to Zarya from Overwatch, without hair. Sure, she would still have some feminine facial features...but that's not exactly the easiest to sculpt, and the differences would be minimal. You'd not ever be able to tell unless you got right down on eye level with the model.
But again, the question arises...what does it add to the lore/gameplay? What benefit do Marines get for having women among their ranks? What do PLAYERS get from having women Marines now? Maybe more female players picking up Marines? Already the most popular faction. But...even then, I doubt it.
I ask because I genuinely have zero clue as to the benefit. I played Orks, and have no real attachment to Marines themselves. I always get the vibe that it comes down to 'wanting to be one of the guys' type of situation, where there is a desire for inclusion. Which is understandable. It's human. But in this case...it just doesn't really do anything...doesn't work...doesn't actually benefit the army and I doubt would actually benefit the game as a result.
As others have said, female representation can fit in the other Imperium factions and several xenos factions to boot. That's a far better place to start without having to rewind fluff or throw poorly written fluff to suddenly justify why something is here today and ALWAYS has been here when it clearly wasn't yesterday...or any day for many years now.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 15:54:57
I totally agree with you that Tolkien would never have given any female character a bikini armor though, that man had way too much self-respect to do this. But your main error here is to conflate the so-called “geeks” that cried us a river because of Rey and Finn with every fan of fantasy or sci-fi. Those so-called “geeks” sure love to pretend that they are representative of the whole, but that's complete bs. I am not saying fantasy is misogynistic. I am saying we have had an infection of horrible cry-bullies that whines and whines every time there is a female character that is more than Suckerpunch-type spank material. “You are censoring her by putting her in a burka”, they cry out, when the camera stop focusing on her butt, and she starts wearing armor that looks protective.
Okay, so this is what this is really about. I can't help but feel you have an axe to grind and aren't actually interested in a constructive discussion. Simply lumping people who disagree with you and labeling them as misogynists is both cheap and lazy.
The thing is, while I may be against retconning the SMs to have them be mixed gender, I am NOT against more female characters. I just think you're barking up the wrong tree. Again, there are other factions that could benefit way more from more females characters and models, and that's without even touching the fluff. Your energy would be much better spent asking for improvement there.
Also, Eldar are my favourite faction along the DA and there's plenty of females there and in more than just "Suckerpunch-type spank material" roles so the supposed "lack of females" in 40K doesn't really bother me (in fact, most Eldar wear full body armour covering everything including the faces. Just look at the banshees. spank off to that!). There's plenty of female characters in the BL books for IG and they're also there for the HH series. Maybe not as astartes, but they're there in important roles all the same (especially in ADB books). Certainly the table top game itself could use more female models and characters but it's not like they're somehow missing from 40k, which is supposed to be grimdark anyway.
And before you start yelling at me, I'd just like to mention that my favourite series in the world is Nausicaa (in which both the main and secondary protagonists are female, none of the male characters really come close) and that in RPGs where you can customize your character, I almost always play female characters, since I find them easier to empathize with. I don't feel "threatened" by females encroaching on the game or any sort of that nonsense. But this isn't Mass Effect (where I went with FemShep btw, cause she's badass). SMs are just tools of destruction and they're the way they are because of how the fluff is built up. Just like the Emperor is male cause he's an analog to a messianic Jesus-like character. And the astartes are his sons... it just plays into the whole biblical fratricide and fall from grace theme the setting is partially based on.
Also, SoBs are great in fan art, cosplay, and the fantasy flight RPG depictions but in actual game they really just have a corny 80s BDSM space nun male fantasy look. This is much closer to "Suckerpunch-type spank material" you mentioned. If I were female, I'd be way more bothered by them than the lack of female SMs. I mean, does this seem targetted at the female audience? Just saying...
Spoiler:
That said, if they did make female SM, they should go with this look. That may just convince me:
Spoiler:
But you might also end up with this:
Spoiler:
Careful what you wish for...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 16:09:14
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
I ask because I genuinely have zero clue as to the benefit. I played Orks, and have no real attachment to Marines themselves. I always get the vibe that it comes down to 'wanting to be one of the guys' type of situation, where there is a desire for inclusion. Which is understandable. It's human. But in this case...it just doesn't really do anything...doesn't work...doesn't actually benefit the army and I doubt would actually benefit the game as a result.
Actually I'd bet there are no actual woman crying over the lack of females in the Space Marines. The cry babies demanding lady marines are all beta-males who think that spewing SJW bullcrap is the way to get laid. (sorry that will never work!)
If an actual woman wanted to tinker with the SMs they would want to see them with their tops off, or having romantic relationships with beautiful princesses.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 16:07:37
Sgt_Smudge wrote: What I'm saying is that due to doctrine and stagnation, as well as the meta-knowledge and inspiration of the Knights Templar and other monastic groups, Space Marines have only been considered as male in Imperial culture.
So in theory the geneseed might work for females, but no one is even going to try it because the Emperor recruited only males for his Legions and breaking that tradition would be HERESY? That certainly works for me (not that I have a problem with the truly really male-only process either).
The only silly thing with marines IMO is the way many Chapters in the fluff use barbaric, savage or even sadistic rituals to find the "best" candidates. The Ultramarines, those bland and boring pinnacles of Space Marine creation, seem to do just fine with selecting their candidates from youths enrolled in the Ultramar military schools. They have the tech to administer compatibility tests and then choose those who do best in the school for entry as a novice into the Chapter. Apparently they can conduct good enough tests that they don't have to kill off half the 12-year old boys on the planet to get 100 potential recruits that then have to pair off in battle to the death (50), hunt the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal (20) and swim across the Ocean of Freezing Megadeth (5).
Actually I'd bet there are no actual woman crying over the lack of females in the Space Marines. The cry babies demanding lady marines are all beta-males who think that spewing SJW bullcrap is the way to get laid. (sorry that will never work!)
If an actual woman wanted to tinker with the SMs they would want to see them with their tops off, or having romantic relationships with beautiful princesses.
Okay, there's no need for this... I don't think female SMs would all that appealing to most females but this? "Romantic relationships with beautiful princesses"? Really?
Spetulhu wrote: So in theory the geneseed might work for females, but no one is even going to try it because the Emperor recruited only males for his Legions and breaking that tradition would be HERESY? That certainly works for me (not that I have a problem with the truly really male-only process either).
No, actually I think it's more like the gene-seed is incompatible and they would end up horrifically mutated if they don't just die in the process.
Remember, the gene-seed comes directly from the Primarchs and forces your body to mutate to be closer to the Primarch in question, which is why you have stuff like "Little Horuses" where many of the Luna Wolves grew to resemble their Primarch, or why all Ravenguard have pale skin and black eyes, etc. The process is quite horrific really. Think about it this way, the gene-seed basically hijacks your body and shapes it into its progenitor, both mind and body. That's why members of the same legion/chapter think alike, have similar temperaments, etc. Inclusiveness isn't really a top concern when it comes to forging a tool of destruction.
Compatibility is key here. And since all Primarchs are male, this seems like a more likely reason than just tradition. The SoB on the other hand are just limited by tradition. No reason why you couldn't have a male "Brother of Battle" really.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 16:27:30
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
EngulfedObject wrote: Okay, there's no need for this... I don't think female SMs would all that appealing to most females but this? "Romantic relationships with beautiful princesses"? Really?
Meh I've been married for more than 12 years now, I know my wife better than any one else ever, that is exactly the sort of thing she likes.
Her all time favourite film is "Shakespeare in love". She has watched it about as many times as I have watched star wars and still wants more. The only parts of Star Wars she likes is the relationship between Princess Leia and Han Solo.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 16:21:24
EngulfedObject wrote: Okay, there's no need for this... I don't think female SMs would all that appealing to most females but this? "Romantic relationships with beautiful princesses"? Really?
Meh I've been married for more than 12 years now, I know my wife better than any one else ever, that is exactly the sort of thing she likes.
Her all time favourite film is "Shakespeare in love". She has watched it about as many times as I have watched star wars and still wants more.
That's just your wife though.... 40k is 40k. If someone gets into 40k, male or female, they're probably not looking for that kind of stuff.
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
EngulfedObject wrote: That's just your wife though.... 40k is 40k. If someone gets into 40k, male or female, they're probably not looking for that kind of stuff.
It isn't just my wife, it is 90% of woman kind. That is why 40k doesn't attract the ladies, it doesn't have what they want.
Because it would be heresy if you desecrated the holy Sisterhood... Hmmm... If the Sororitas were originally a band of warrior women who venerated the Emperor and now they are a monolithic part of the Imperium, covering areas of expertise outside of battle such as interpreters, doctors, teachers and archivists. Astartes, the Brothers of Battle, if you will, are created for the sole purpose of war. Their entire life revolves around the art of war. Both have well established roots in the fluff and it would be stupid to change either one.
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
EngulfedObject wrote: That's just your wife though.... 40k is 40k. If someone gets into 40k, male or female, they're probably not looking for that kind of stuff.
It isn't just my wife, it is 90% of woman kind. That is why 40k doesn't attract the ladies, it doesn't have what they want.
I agree that 40k might not be all that appealing to females in general (Eldar might be though, they should appeal to everyone!) but I'm going to heavily disagree with you on stuff like this
SolarCross wrote: If an actual woman wanted to tinker with the SMs they would want to see them with their tops off, or having romantic relationships with beautiful princesses.
That's just not true. There's definitely a huge demand for empowered females in the female demographic (male as well obviously). It's evident when you look at anime for example (or even SW actually), there's definitely a market there.
Also, we both know SW has appeal to females beyond the Han and Leia romance. Come on... I can kinda see why people end up frothing from the mouth like Oxayotl when you say stuff like that. Though I'll take it in good faith and assume you're partly joking.
Because it would be heresy if you desecrated the holy Sisterhood... Hmmm... If the Sororitas were originally a band of warrior women who venerated the Emperor and now they are a monolithic part of the Imperium, covering areas of expertise outside of battle such as interpreters, doctors, teachers and archivists. Astartes, the Brothers of Battle, if you will, are created for the sole purpose of war. Their entire life revolves around the art of war. Both have well established roots in the fluff and it would be stupid to change either one.
Yes, though the heresy of having female SMs would be much greater than having male Soritas as they were created by the God Emperor himself and cast in his image (and of his sons, the Primarchs). I mean, can you imagine the shitstorm? The Imperium would friggin implode!
Actually, I just realized this kinda contradicts what I said about the gene-seed. So I guess they're both equally important factors.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 20:01:59
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
I agree that 40k might not be all that appealing to females in general (Eldar might be though, they should appeal to everyone!) but I'm going to heavily disagree with you on stuff like this.
Disagree all you like. Fact is 40k leaves them cold and the reason is because there is no romance or affairs of the heart at all. Just war, fighting, killing, war, war, WAAAAGHHH!. 90% of blokes are either actual warriors (only a few) or unrequited wannabe warriors (pretty much all blokes in a civilised society). 40k plays exactly to male fantasies of battlefield heroics. Women in the majority don't dream about being formidable warriors, of gunning down their enemies or lopping off limbs samurai stylee. It just isn't what they want. What interests them is interpersonal relationships especially romantic ones. Now if Commander Shadowsun and Commander Farsight could have some complicated on and off tragically interupted romantic relationship, you might have something for them. Or maybe Calgar could fall in love with some Inquisitor and be tragically torn between his oaths as a warrior monk and his longing for her embrace. If all you have is smiting and more smiting then they are bored and / or repulsed. If anything women are rather more sensible than men in that regard because in a civilised society handling interpersonal relationships adroitly is more adaptive than dreaming of punching people in the face.
EngulfedObject wrote: That's just not true. There's definitely a huge demand for empowered females in the female demographic (male as well obviously). It's evident when you look at anime for example (or even SW actually), there's definitely a market there.
Also, we both know SW has appeal to females beyond the Han and Leia romance. Come on... I can kinda see why people end up frothing from the mouth like Oxayotl when you say stuff like that. Though I'll take it in a good faith and assume you're partly joking.
Women want power as much as men but they don't see lopping heads off as an expression of power, understanding how to manipulate a big dumb male into lopping off heads so she doesn't have to is closer to a woman's understanding of power. Anime is as diverse a storytelling mileu as anything in the euro-scene. If you think because asian women like anime they must like Ghost in the Shell because Motoko is a female badass cyborg killing machine then you are wrong. Blokes love Motoko. Women like that clever little girl in Spirited Away.
I agree that 40k might not be all that appealing to females in general (Eldar might be though, they should appeal to everyone!) but I'm going to heavily disagree with you on stuff like this.
Disagree all you like. Fact is 40k leaves them cold and the reason is because there is no romance or affairs of the heart at all. Just war, fighting, killing, war, war, WAAAAGHHH!. 90% of blokes are either actual warriors (only a few) or unrequited wannabe warriors (pretty much all blokes in a civilised society). 40k plays exactly to male fantasies of battlefield heroics. Women in the majority don't dream about being formidable warriors, of gunning down their enemies or lopping off limbs samurai stylee. It just isn't what they want. What interests them is interpersonal relationships especially romantic ones. Now if Commander Shadowsun and Commander Farsight could have some complicated on and off tragically interupted romantic relationship, you might have something for them. Or maybe Calgar could fall in love with some Inquisitor and be tragically torn between his oaths as a warrior monk and his longing for her embrace. If all you have is smiting and more smiting then they are bored and / or repulsed. If anything women are rather more sensible than men in that regard because in a civilised society handling interpersonal relationships adroitly is more adaptive than dreaming of punching people in the face.
Eldar warriors deliberately forget what war feels like so they don't become obsessed and turn into an Exarch. From my limited knowledge of Eldar and women, I would say that the Eldar would be the most appealing to a woman. They don't live for the heat of battle and still actively have a civilization outside of war. They understand emotion like a second language and are versed in all of its nuances. Eldar make for the most in-depth characters in 40k. Unlike the rest of the races, Eldar still have romantic relationships.
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
I ask because I genuinely have zero clue as to the benefit. I played Orks, and have no real attachment to Marines themselves. I always get the vibe that it comes down to 'wanting to be one of the guys' type of situation, where there is a desire for inclusion. Which is understandable. It's human. But in this case...it just doesn't really do anything...doesn't work...doesn't actually benefit the army and I doubt would actually benefit the game as a result.
Actually I'd bet there are no actual woman crying over the lack of females in the Space Marines. The cry babies demanding lady marines are all beta-males who think that spewing SJW bullcrap is the way to get laid. (sorry that will never work!)
If an actual woman wanted to tinker with the SMs they would want to see them with their tops off, or having romantic relationships with beautiful princesses.
...
Oh boy.
Do you have any evidence for this, or just your own stereotypes?
EngulfedObject wrote:
Spetulhu wrote: So in theory the geneseed might work for females, but no one is even going to try it because the Emperor recruited only males for his Legions and breaking that tradition would be HERESY? That certainly works for me (not that I have a problem with the truly really male-only process either).
No, actually I think it's more like the gene-seed is incompatible and they would end up horrifically mutated if they don't just die in the process.
Remember, the gene-seed comes directly from the Primarchs and forces your body to mutate to be closer to the Primarch in question, which is why you have stuff like "Little Horuses" where many of the Luna Wolves grew to resemble their Primarch, or why all Ravenguard have pale skin and black eyes, etc. The process is quite horrific really. Think about it this way, the gene-seed basically hijacks your body and shapes it into its progenitor, both mind and body. That's why members of the same legion/chapter think alike, have similar temperaments, etc. Inclusiveness isn't really a top concern when it comes to forging a tool of destruction.
Compatibility is key here. And since all Primarchs are male, this seems like a more likely reason than just tradition. The SoB on the other hand are just limited by tradition. No reason why you couldn't have a male "Brother of Battle" really.
Agreed, although I've not seen much evidence that a female can't survive the process. They could still embody Primarch-like traits as a woman. Just not a feminine one.
As for the last note, see my later remark about the Decree Passive. Mono-gender Sisters of Battle is fine. Mono-gender Space Marines are fine.
SolarCross wrote:Meh I've been married for more than 12 years now, I know my wife better than any one else ever, that is exactly the sort of thing she likes.
Her all time favourite film is "Shakespeare in love". She has watched it about as many times as I have watched star wars and still wants more. The only parts of Star Wars she likes is the relationship between Princess Leia and Han Solo.
That applies to your wife, not all women. Please stop generalising.
SolarCross wrote:
EngulfedObject wrote: That's just your wife though.... 40k is 40k. If someone gets into 40k, male or female, they're probably not looking for that kind of stuff.
It isn't just my wife, it is 90% of woman kind. That is why 40k doesn't attract the ladies, it doesn't have what they want.
Got any stats for that? Because funnily enough, I doubt this.
Because it would be heresy if you desecrated the holy Sisterhood... Hmmm... If the Sororitas were originally a band of warrior women who venerated the Emperor and now they are a monolithic part of the Imperium, covering areas of expertise outside of battle such as interpreters, doctors, teachers and archivists. Astartes, the Brothers of Battle, if you will, are created for the sole purpose of war. Their entire life revolves around the art of war. Both have well established roots in the fluff and it would be stupid to change either one.
Not strictly correct: the Sisters of Battle only exist because of the loophole in the Decree Passive, set up after Goge Vandire's reign.
Vandire used the Ecclesiarchy to create a civil war in the Imperium, using faith to create a full army and take Terra, before the Daughters of the Emperor (the original SoB) realised their mistake and opened the gates to let the loyalists in, and took Vandire's head themselves.
After this, it was decided that the Ecclesiarchy would never have any standing men-at-arms under their direct control. To bypass this, they made an all female army, the Sisters of Battle, as they were not strictly men-at-arms.
I agree that 40k might not be all that appealing to females in general (Eldar might be though, they should appeal to everyone!) but I'm going to heavily disagree with you on stuff like this.
Disagree all you like. Fact is 40k leaves them cold and the reason is because there is no romance or affairs of the heart at all. Just war, fighting, killing, war, war, WAAAAGHHH!. 90% of blokes are either actual warriors (only a few) or unrequited wannabe warriors (pretty much all blokes in a civilised society). 40k plays exactly to male fantasies of battlefield heroics. Women in the majority don't dream about being formidable warriors, of gunning down their enemies or lopping off limbs samurai stylee. It just isn't what they want. What interests them is interpersonal relationships especially romantic ones. Now if Commander Shadowsun and Commander Farsight could have some complicated on and off tragically interupted romantic relationship, you might have something for them. Or maybe Calgar could fall in love with some Inquisitor and be tragically torn between his oaths as a warrior monk and his longing for her embrace. If all you have is smiting and more smiting then they are bored and / or repulsed. If anything women are rather more sensible than men in that regard because in a civilised society handling interpersonal relationships adroitly is more adaptive than dreaming of punching people in the face.
The two are not mutually exclusive. I can like both aspects just fine - is that bad? All I want is more female representation across factions it would be logical to have females in. I don't want it to appease people, I don't want it to fulfil some kind of fantasy. I want it because it's fair and makes sense in the fluff. That is not at all an SJW reason for it.
Why are you generalising with, again, NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE. If you could stop spouting random statistics and beliefs and use some empirical evidence, that would be appreciated.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/30 18:09:06
Okay, I am not going to quote most people but I am going to answer anyway.
First, about the Star Wars comparison. Star Wars did retcon the whole extended universe. I am talking about retconning something that was stated, as far as I know, in literally just one sentence of the “Creation of a Space Marine” WD article. I may be wrong though. Is this fact explicitly mentioned in the current Space Marines codex? Or in the current rulebook? How can retconning it be any deal comparable to retconning the whole EU?
Second, about the Decree passive. I wrote, and I will write again, that I am okay with a retcon of the Decree Passive. I have wrote, and I stand by that, that I feel the Decree Passive stuff is a great way to showcase the byzantine ways of the Imperium, and that if it was removed, I would like something else to be introduced to show those byzantine ways. I also wrote that I know some people on Dakka that are NOT Sgt_Smudge don't feel that marine being all male is dystopian because they feel it's just “natural” and “realistic”. So it doesn't really work to show how 40k is dystopian. Sorry, Smudge, I wasn't trying to say that you are in any way similar to them.
Third, I would like to point out that having all-male chapters would still be a possibility, and that I even singled out at least two major chapters where it made the most sense: Dark Angels, and Black Templars, because of the specific nature and historical influence of those chapters.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: (It's Belle, by the way - it does mean beauty in French though )
Yeah, since we use Belle in French too, I thought they translated it to Beauty in English, but apparently they kept the French word without translating .
EngulfedObject wrote: Okay, so this is what this is really about. I can't help but feel you have an axe to grind and aren't actually interested in a constructive discussion. Simply lumping people who disagree with you and labeling them as misogynists is both cheap and lazy.
The thing is, while I may be against retconning the SMs to have them be mixed gender, I am NOT against more female characters.
I wasn't talking about you. I did not lump you with anyone. Just take a look at whom I was replying and it should explain my answer quite a bit. Does it still feels like I am the one arguing in bad faith?
Spoiler:
Solar Cross has this to say:
SolarCross wrote: No you insulted a bunch of other people not here to defend themselves. As the japanese say "It's mirror time!".
However, this is what Solar Cross said before I answered in this manner that was so insulting to “a bunch of other people not here to defend themselves” :
SolarCross wrote: Creatures like that have no business messing with art just to scratch some itchy mental illness they have.
and here is what he says in following message:
SolarCross wrote: The cry babies demanding lady marines are all beta-males who think that spewing SJW bullcrap is the way to get laid. (sorry that will never work!)
Mirror time? Mirror time indeed.
Also, tell me that a guy that literally denies that Christianism is now part of European culture is not either arguing in bad faith, or quite out of touch with the word as it is right now?
SolarCross wrote: Abrahamic attitudes have been creeping into our Nordic & hellenic mythology for millenia and it seems it is still going on. Where once puritans frothed and fumed over the Morte d'Arthur we now have SJW's frothing and fuming over Star Wars, Video games and now 40k...
If one doesn't like euro culture GTFO I say. The middle-east welcomes you.
I'll add that there is nothing puritanical or Abrahamic about adding female space marines, there is nothing puritanical or Abrahamic about adding Rey and Finn to Star Wars either, there is nothing Abrahamic or puritanical about calling for better written female characters. Just go look at what the people SolarCross call “puritanical” create and enjoy, and you will see oh so many things that would be pretty upsetting to actual puritanical people with an Abrahamic mindset, like, say, same-sex couples, inter-racial (and often inter-species too) couples, people engaging in recreational, casual sex and all that.
Furthermore,
SolarCross wrote: Actually I'd bet there are no actual woman crying over the lack of females in the Space Marines.
He lost his bet, there is Ashiraya on Dakka for instance.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
I don't think anyone is saying GW should change space marines. Nobody thinks GW would ever change their lore. If anything they should add more female representation to the other armies.
I am saying that if someone has 'female space marines' then don't be a a jerk and scoff and insult them. Its a game. For FUN. Let people make believe. It seems like common sense but there are a lot of wargamers out there without.....tact. I don't know why wargaming attracts so many weirdos but it does.
But hey, I'm probably just some beta cuck who wants to get into womens panties or something. *rolls eyes*
"People say on their first meeting a Man and an Ork exchanged a long, hard look, didn't care much for what they saw, and shot each other dead."
@ Sgt. Smudge.
What I said is drawn from actual experience of actual women throughout the entire course of my life and that is a lot of women. Sisters, mother, aunts, grandmothers, cousins, girl friends, wives, friends of wife, freinds of all the the rest, work associates, customers... Every woman, hundreds and hundreds of them. I dare say there are exceptions but I have yet to meet any. There is nothing wrong with that either.
Surely the worst sexism is to claim woman are no good unless they are afflicted with the same stupid obsessions as men?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Second, about the Decree passive. I wrote, and I will write again, that I am okay with a retcon of the Decree Passive. I have wrote, and I stand by that, that I feel the Decree Passive stuff is a great way to showcase the byzantine ways of the Imperium, and that if it was removed, I would like something else to be introduced to show those byzantine ways. I also wrote that I know some people on Dakka that are NOT Sgt_Smudge don't feel that marine being all male is dystopian because they feel it's just “natural” and “realistic”. So it doesn't really work to show how 40k is dystopian. Sorry, Smudge, I wasn't trying to say that you are in any way similar to them.
It's okay, I wasn't offended by that. No worries.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: (It's Belle, by the way - it does mean beauty in French though )
Yeah, since we use Belle in French too, I thought they translated it to Beauty in English, but apparently they kept the French word without translating .
It only took after I posted to realise the French flag, so I missed that part of it. Still, not a thing I'll burn anyone at the stake for.
EngulfedObject wrote: Okay, so this is what this is really about. I can't help but feel you have an axe to grind and aren't actually interested in a constructive discussion. Simply lumping people who disagree with you and labeling them as misogynists is both cheap and lazy.
The thing is, while I may be against retconning the SMs to have them be mixed gender, I am NOT against more female characters.
I wasn't talking about you. I did not lump you with anyone. Just take a look at whom I was replying and it should explain my answer quite a bit. Does it still feels like I am the one arguing in bad faith?
Spoiler:
Solar Cross has this to say:
SolarCross wrote: No you insulted a bunch of other people not here to defend themselves. As the japanese say "It's mirror time!".
However, this is what Solar Cross said before I answered in this manner that was so insulting to “a bunch of other people not here to defend themselves” :
SolarCross wrote: Creatures like that have no business messing with art just to scratch some itchy mental illness they have.
and here is what he says in following message:
SolarCross wrote: The cry babies demanding lady marines are all beta-males who think that spewing SJW bullcrap is the way to get laid. (sorry that will never work!)
Mirror time? Mirror time indeed.
Also, tell me that a guy that literally denies that Christianism is now part of European culture is not either arguing in bad faith, or quite out of touch with the word as it is right now?
SolarCross wrote: Abrahamic attitudes have been creeping into our Nordic & hellenic mythology for millenia and it seems it is still going on. Where once puritans frothed and fumed over the Morte d'Arthur we now have SJW's frothing and fuming over Star Wars, Video games and now 40k...
If one doesn't like euro culture GTFO I say. The middle-east welcomes you.
I'll add that there is nothing puritanical or Abrahamic about adding female space marines, there is nothing puritanical or Abrahamic about adding Rey and Finn to Star Wars either, there is nothing Abrahamic or puritanical about calling for better written female characters. Just go look at what the people SolarCross call “puritanical” create and enjoy, and you will see oh so many things that would be pretty upsetting to actual puritanical people with an Abrahamic mindset, like, say, same-sex couples, inter-racial (and often inter-species too) couples, people engaging in recreational, casual sex and all that.
Furthermore,
SolarCross wrote: Actually I'd bet there are no actual woman crying over the lack of females in the Space Marines.
He lost his bet, there is Ashiraya on Dakka for instance.
Agreed. Whilst I may have disagreed on certain points with you, I cannot justify any of Solar's comments or accept them. They are (hopefully) not generalisable to the majority of this forum.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SolarCross wrote: @ Sgt. Smudge.
What I said is drawn from actual experience of actual women throughout the entire course of my life and that is a lot of women. Sisters, mother, aunts, grandmothers, cousins, girl friends, wives, friends of wife, freinds of all the the rest, work associates, customers... Every woman, hundreds and hundreds of them. I dare say there are exceptions but I have yet to meet any. There is nothing wrong with that either.
Surely the worst sexism is to claim woman are no good unless they are afflicted with the same stupid obsessions as men?
I'm not saying that anything is wrong. People are free to enjoy what they like. What I'm saying is that in MY experience, it is not true. So if you're going to make such wide statements, use some actual quantifiable data?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/30 18:33:55
Don Savik wrote: I don't think anyone is saying GW should change space marines. Nobody thinks GW would ever change their lore. If anything they should add more female representation to the other armies.
I am saying that if someone has 'female space marines' then don't be a a jerk and scoff and insult them. Its a game. For FUN. Let people make believe. It seems like common sense but there are a lot of wargamers out there without.....tact. I don't know why wargaming attracts so many weirdos but it does.
But hey, I'm probably just some beta cuck who wants to get into womens panties or something. *rolls eyes*
Agreed. I have no qualms with people's decisions with their armies. They can model how they want, paint how they want, and have ANY fluff they want. If it makes them happy, that's awesome. If they want to tell me that their Blood Angels army is actually women under the helmets, dude, I wanna hear the fluff! I think it's fine if people want to do their own thing.
Just not have our own head-canons be forced into the lore is all.
EngulfedObject wrote: Okay, so this is what this is really about. I can't help but feel you have an axe to grind and aren't actually interested in a constructive discussion. Simply lumping people who disagree with you and labeling them as misogynists is both cheap and lazy.
The thing is, while I may be against retconning the SMs to have them be mixed gender, I am NOT against more female characters.
I wasn't talking about you. I did not lump you with anyone. Just take a look at whom I was replying and it should explain my answer quite a bit. Does it still feels like I am the one arguing in bad faith?
Spoiler:
Solar Cross has this to say:
SolarCross wrote: No you insulted a bunch of other people not here to defend themselves. As the japanese say "It's mirror time!".
However, this is what Solar Cross said before I answered in this manner that was so insulting to “a bunch of other people not here to defend themselves” :
SolarCross wrote: Creatures like that have no business messing with art just to scratch some itchy mental illness they have.
and here is what he says in following message:
SolarCross wrote: The cry babies demanding lady marines are all beta-males who think that spewing SJW bullcrap is the way to get laid. (sorry that will never work!)
Mirror time? Mirror time indeed.
Also, tell me that a guy that literally denies that Christianism is now part of European culture is not either arguing in bad faith, or quite out of touch with the word as it is right now?
SolarCross wrote: Abrahamic attitudes have been creeping into our Nordic & hellenic mythology for millenia and it seems it is still going on. Where once puritans frothed and fumed over the Morte d'Arthur we now have SJW's frothing and fuming over Star Wars, Video games and now 40k...
If one doesn't like euro culture GTFO I say. The middle-east welcomes you.
I'll add that there is nothing puritanical or Abrahamic about adding female space marines, there is nothing puritanical or Abrahamic about adding Rey and Finn to Star Wars either, there is nothing Abrahamic or puritanical about calling for better written female characters. Just go look at what the people SolarCross call “puritanical” create and enjoy, and you will see oh so many things that would be pretty upsetting to actual puritanical people with an Abrahamic mindset, like, say, same-sex couples, inter-racial (and often inter-species too) couples, people engaging in recreational, casual sex and all that.
Furthermore,
SolarCross wrote: Actually I'd bet there are no actual woman crying over the lack of females in the Space Marines.
He lost his bet, there is Ashiraya on Dakka for instance.
Agreed. Whilst I may have disagreed on certain points with you, I cannot justify any of Solar's comments or accept them. They are (hopefully) not generalisable to the majority of this forum.
Ok, I admit I jumped in without reading everything so I didn't quite see how the argument escalated.
Anyway, in the end I still think female SMs don't fit the fluff in its current form. There are very good fluff reasons for why they are male, arguably even stronger reasons than why SoB are female. Then there's the problem of aesthetics. But I won't cry if if they did find a way to add them, so long as they do it in a way that's at least somewhat respectful to the established fluff and they somehow make models with decent faces (the SoBbtw have horrible faces - nice in the fan art and the RPGs but the models are horrific enough to give little children nightmares).
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Agreed, although I've not seen much evidence that a female can't survive the process. They could still embody Primarch-like traits as a woman. Just not a feminine one.
As for the last note, see my later remark about the Decree Passive. Mono-gender Sisters of Battle is fine. Mono-gender Space Marines are fine.
True, but that's because SMs have been male by default so there's been no fluff examples of the process to be even attempted in females. I'd assume though, by how much the process casts you in the Primarch's image, that the process is incompatible with females. At the very least, it's a convenient explanation for why there are no female SMs, in addition to the whole father-son theme.
They *could* handwavium that away easily but rewriting the HH series and all the other fluff to reflect that isn't as easy.
Don Savik wrote: I don't think anyone is saying GW should change space marines. Nobody thinks GW would ever change their lore. If anything they should add more female representation to the other armies.
I am saying that if someone has 'female space marines' then don't be a a jerk and scoff and insult them. Its a game. For FUN. Let people make believe. It seems like common sense but there are a lot of wargamers out there without.....tact. I don't know why wargaming attracts so many weirdos but it does.
But hey, I'm probably just some beta cuck who wants to get into womens panties or something. *rolls eyes*
Well, actually there were arguments being made for GW introducing female SM characters. But yea, I've repeatedly said other armies would benefit far more from female representation. But sure, if someone wants to use female SMs then go ahead, but changing something as fundamental to the fluff as SMs is more difficult and should be done with caution rather than just to make it more appealing to a wider demographic (which is debatable anyway, unless the average female finds muscle packed bodies with fat necks and inhumanly squat faces in females appealing - though luckily this is just from some BL descriptions, I guess the rest of the fluff doesn't show this to that extent).
In short, I agree
Tactical_Spam wrote: Eldar warriors deliberately forget what war feels like so they don't become obsessed and turn into an Exarch. From my limited knowledge of Eldar and women, I would say that the Eldar would be the most appealing to a woman. They don't live for the heat of battle and still actively have a civilization outside of war. They understand emotion like a second language and are versed in all of its nuances. Eldar make for the most in-depth characters in 40k. Unlike the rest of the races, Eldar still have romantic relationships.
Yes, exactly! I really do think they have the potential to appeal to both genders equally, plus the models also represent both genders equally well. Anyway, they might not have the same appeal thematically, but at least the IG and Tau could benefit from the same range of models and special characters the Eldar have of both sexes.
And I'm beginning to sound like a broken record here, so yea, I think I'll stop here. You guys carry on
Wait, just wanted to add that yea ok, I can agree with most of this. The part about Motoko and Chihiro is kind of spot on. Motoko is more of a male fantasy, kinda like the SoB. I still disagree with the part about them only wanting romance stuff and the shirtless SMs but yea, this I can agree with. Pretty good analysis!
I agree that 40k might not be all that appealing to females in general (Eldar might be though, they should appeal to everyone!) but I'm going to heavily disagree with you on stuff like this.
Disagree all you like. Fact is 40k leaves them cold and the reason is because there is no romance or affairs of the heart at all. Just war, fighting, killing, war, war, WAAAAGHHH!. 90% of blokes are either actual warriors (only a few) or unrequited wannabe warriors (pretty much all blokes in a civilised society). 40k plays exactly to male fantasies of battlefield heroics. Women in the majority don't dream about being formidable warriors, of gunning down their enemies or lopping off limbs samurai stylee. It just isn't what they want. What interests them is interpersonal relationships especially romantic ones. Now if Commander Shadowsun and Commander Farsight could have some complicated on and off tragically interupted romantic relationship, you might have something for them. Or maybe Calgar could fall in love with some Inquisitor and be tragically torn between his oaths as a warrior monk and his longing for her embrace. If all you have is smiting and more smiting then they are bored and / or repulsed. If anything women are rather more sensible than men in that regard because in a civilised society handling interpersonal relationships adroitly is more adaptive than dreaming of punching people in the face.
EngulfedObject wrote: That's just not true. There's definitely a huge demand for empowered females in the female demographic (male as well obviously). It's evident when you look at anime for example (or even SW actually), there's definitely a market there.
Also, we both know SW has appeal to females beyond the Han and Leia romance. Come on... I can kinda see why people end up frothing from the mouth like Oxayotl when you say stuff like that. Though I'll take it in good faith and assume you're partly joking.
Women want power as much as men but they don't see lopping heads off as an expression of power, understanding how to manipulate a big dumb male into lopping off heads so she doesn't have to is closer to a woman's understanding of power. Anime is as diverse a storytelling mileu as anything in the euro-scene. If you think because asian women like anime they must like Ghost in the Shell because Motoko is a female badass cyborg killing machine then you are wrong. Blokes love Motoko. Women like that clever little girl in Spirited Away.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 20:10:44
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
The only difference between a male and female Eldar though is a pair of mammories and whatever reproductive organ they may have (considering Eldar are mammalian and very close to Humans, we will assume a penis and a vagina). Their facial structures, according to many sources, are nearly identical between the sexes. For one to make a female Eldar, you would only need to make a torso with "boob-plate" and one without so as to make them distinguishable. And if I recall correctly, Eldar battle armour is psycho-conductive, so it is form fitting as most Eldar don't rely on their armour as much as they rely on their superior reflexes in battle.
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
Next, if you want to have an army with female space marines, just say it's led by an inquisitor from the Ordo Chronos
Also, for everyone saying "men are the strongest and therefore that's why they become space marines", the female anatomy is actually more robust, and it has a higher pain tolerance. Meaning that women would be much more likely to survive the various trials, and subsequent surgeries, described in Space Marine creation process.
Finally, I'm certain that GW has very little incentive to cater to a female audience. If anything, they'd be better off creating a spin off company that would create products "more palatable to that audience". Not saying it's right, just saying that's how business goes.
Just to clarify, because I see this a fair bit: we don't know that.
Unless you've got some fascinating new source with actual financial numbers or credible quotes directly from GWHQ, there is (almost*) nothing, concrete about why the Sisters occupy their current nearly-but-not-quite-squatted status. All there is is conjecture, and hack theories (wanna hear mine?). For all we know faction updating could be decided based on a roulette wheel, and the SoB just haven't had their number come up yet.
* I say almost due to that one quote from years ago about 'solving the moulding issues', that is so stale at this point I don't think it counts for much.
. . .
As to the actual topic; my 2 cents is as follows:
Cent 1 - GW definitely has a, lets call it: Issue with Representation.
Cent 2 - Would female SM fix that issue? Maybe?(Depending alot on implementation.) But there are most certainly other ways to go about it, and far better places to start. (Such as by not treating the male-only faction as the be-all-and-end-all.)
At this point I would call upon you (and several others who for some strange reason call into question why SM are so well supported and prominent) to please, please, get real. Just take a look around your self at the actual world you find your self living in. How many Sororitas armies do you see on the table? Even back when they were released, and GW was pushing them, do you know how many I saw on the table? Zero. In all the years since, in the organized campaigns I have played in, all the FLGS I have visited, all the GW stores I have visited full of players on a busy Saturday, you know how many SoB armies I have seen on the table, or even in a display case? I'm hard pressed to remember a single one. I'm fairly certain I've only ever seen one on the internet, and in White Dwarf.
There's no Chicken- and- egg argument to be made here. GW hasn't managed to survive by shuttering lines that gamers wan,t and that sell, and pushing stuff people don't want forcefully for 30 years non-stop. You don't need to open GW's financials. Honestly, just take a look at the real world around you.
The minute we can do that and get our heads out of some make believe world of social engineering, is the minute this conversation can stop going in circles.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/30 23:05:02
Next, if you want to have an army with female space marines, just say it's led by an inquisitor from the Ordo Chronos
Also, for everyone saying "men are the strongest and therefore that's why they become space marines", the female anatomy is actually more robust, and it has a higher pain tolerance. Meaning that women would be much more likely to survive the various trials, and subsequent surgeries, described in Space Marine creation process.
Finally, I'm certain that GW has very little incentive to cater to a female audience. If anything, they'd be better off creating a spin off company that would create products "more palatable to that audience". Not saying it's right, just saying that's how business goes.
The average difference between the most recent World's Strongest Man and World's Strongest Woman is roughly 300 pounds (480~ vs 180~). That is nearly a threefold difference between the two. If we assume that difference is based on muscle mass, then an ordinary Space Marine would have nearly three times the muscle mass as a Female Space Marine.
Space Marine trials are not solely based on the ability to ignore pain. If we take the Promethian trial, the one where they send Neophytes into the wastes of Nocturne to hunt down some wildlife; wildlife that has evolved to survive the wastes and the Dark Eldar raids. I highly doubt that pain tolerance is a boon over higher depth perception and greater strength.
A female space marine would effectively be a male space marine without a penis. There really isn't any incentive in making Female Space Marines if they are going to be nearly the same as ordinary Space Marines. Making Female Space Marines just to cater to some SJW crowd whom may or may not play the game but are aware that "All Space Marines are male" wouldn't be a very stable course of action.
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
)
.
bag!"
Still, not a thing I'll burn anyone at the stake for. 
