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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I mean, it makes perfect fluff sense for Marines to be all male: the original Astartes were all male, as per the Emperor's decree. Whether this was scientific limitation when creating the Thunder Warriors, or his own bias, the idea stuck. As the Emperor decreed it, it became doctrine within the Imperium. This shows the lack of innovation and progression within the Imperium.
There: male marines have a fluff reason to stay as they do.

You are mistaking an in-universe reason with an out-universe reason. I gave an out-universe reason why having the Sisters be an all-female group illustrates something interesting in the setting. You gave an in-universe justification for the SM being all males.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I would only ask for appropriate recognition and showcasing of mixed gender troops in all appropriate races (Tau, AM, Eldar etc) and less emphasis on the Marines and more to the Sisters to make all options equally appealing.

I would be okay with this. Of course I would, it would mean more focus on SoB!!! But I still don't understand the attachment to Marines being all males…

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't completely agree with this view.

If it's bad to have one mono-gendered group, why are Sisters okay? I support the idea of fluff being the most important aspect, yes, but it's a little convenient that Sisters are the ones which you support being mono-gendered.
I mean, it makes perfect fluff sense for Marines to be all male: the original Astartes were all male, as per the Emperor's decree. Whether this was scientific limitation when creating the Thunder Warriors, or his own bias, the idea stuck. As the Emperor decreed it, it became doctrine within the Imperium. This shows the lack of innovation and progression within the Imperium.
There: male marines have a fluff reason to stay as they do.

I would not want Sisters or Marines to change. I would only ask for appropriate recognition and showcasing of mixed gender troops in all appropriate races (Tau, AM, Eldar etc) and less emphasis on the Marines and more to the Sisters to make all options equally appealing.

Yea, there's definitely a double standard here. SMs have a very good fluff reason for being all male because of gene-seed - that's at the core of their existence. And since gene-seed comes from the Primarchs and the Emperor, it makes sense for them to be male.

Whatever the case, their gender isn't really all that important since one of their defining features is how they're not really human anymore. Gender doesn't have a meaning for them. They're meant to be rather featureless and bland. And Orks are technically genderless but still appear as more male in appearance, right? I mean who cares, do we really want to see female Orks return? I'm thinking the idea of having female SMs is probably more appealing than actually having female SMs.

Anyway, the factions where females are best represented are the two Eldar factions. They do a great job of that. And the faction that could benefit the most from female models is probably the IG. The fluff is already much more inclusive than the range of models would indicate. The Tau could benefit too. Necrons don't really need female models - adding breasts to their metallic/skeletal frames doesn't really make sense. After all, you can't see breasts on a human skeleton.

So the way I see it, more females for the Tau and IG, Eldar factions are already fine the way they are, and the rest are also fine (all-male faction? check. all-female faction? check. And the rest don't really resemble humans enough for it to matter).

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
But I still don't understand the attachment to Marines being all males…

It's not an attachment. There's just no real justification for that to change. There's already a good fluff reason for why they're male, and there's other factions where females are well represented (Eldar). Other factions like the IG and Tau could benefit far more from including females. But SMs are mainly just bald guys in bulky armor. You'd just end up with bald females in bulky armour. I mean sure, but is that really what people want? And there's already the SoB. Female SMs = SoBs having no reason to exist as a faction.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
and the rest are also fine (all-male faction? check. all-female faction? check. And the rest don't really resemble humans enough for it to matter).

Are you seriously putting the not-translated-digidex more-than-20-years-old-monopose-metal-miniature direct-order-only faction on the same level as the twenty-different-codices dozens-of-thousand-of-plastic-and-resin-miniatures posterboy factions?

pm713 wrote:
How exactly do you show a female Eldar? They don't exactly have some distinct feature like Tau.

You mean like breasts?

Or pronouns. How many faction has a lot of female SC?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
and the rest are also fine (all-male faction? check. all-female faction? check. And the rest don't really resemble humans enough for it to matter).

Are you seriously putting the not-translated-digidex more-than-20-years-old-monopose-metal-miniature direct-order-only faction on the same level as the twenty-different-codices dozens-of-thousand-of-plastic-and-resin-miniatures posterboy factions?

Well that's not really the point. I was still writing a response to your other post so if you go backa that might clear things up. The point is... what's the point? And female SMs would replace the SoB completely. Just think of SMs as brothers of battle and there you go.

Or just go Eldar, there's a good balance there.

nomotog wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How exactly do you show a female Eldar? They don't exactly have some distinct feature like Tau.

You mean like breasts?

Breasts, hair, frames, etc. It's pretty easy to tell from the models even when they have helmets on. It's much easier to depict female Eldar than female SMs as they're too bulky. In that case, you'd only be able to tell with their helmets off. Tau are also harder to depict than Eldar as they're mostly bald except for the occasional top knot and their faces are totally different.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I mean, it makes perfect fluff sense for Marines to be all male: the original Astartes were all male, as per the Emperor's decree. Whether this was scientific limitation when creating the Thunder Warriors, or his own bias, the idea stuck. As the Emperor decreed it, it became doctrine within the Imperium. This shows the lack of innovation and progression within the Imperium.
There: male marines have a fluff reason to stay as they do.

You are mistaking an in-universe reason with an out-universe reason. I gave an out-universe reason why having the Sisters be an all-female group illustrates something interesting in the setting. You gave an in-universe justification for the SM being all males.

I don't understand?

My evidence is perfectly in-universe. The Emperor made Astartes male. That was the choice of the individual - an in-universe choice.
Following the Emperor's incarceration on the Golden Throne, the only things that remain with the knowledge of geneseed manipulation are Magos Biologists (who tend to venerate stability and security - tampering with the Emperor's design is heresy) and Space Marine Apothecaries, who after the Heresy would be very wary of their geneseed and not tamper with the Emperor's design. The only method of geneseed implantation we know of is in a male host, so only males were used. Over the time, the HLOT took power and solidified the dogmatic approach.

This has an impact on the setting as it shows how dogma and tradition have possibly handicapped the Astartes and further emphasises the difference of the dystopian Imperium and our (more) liberal lives today.

nomotog wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How exactly do you show a female Eldar? They don't exactly have some distinct feature like Tau.

You mean like breasts?

So breast armour? Great. Everyone loves that.

How exactly would you use pronouns?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't understand

He/she means he/she doesn't care about the fluff reasons for SMs being male.

Although... this is the background forum though so it'd make more sense to use that line of reasoning in the general discussion forum. Fluff is solid on why they're male, there's no changing it without rewriting the entire setting and all the HH books. Not going to happen.

pm713 wrote:
So breast armour? Great. Everyone loves that.

How exactly would you use pronouns?

Not just breast armour. Hair, faces, frames, etc. Doesn't work as well on some factions. But yea, they already exist and do a good job of it. Scroll up

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Having a monogendered faction can work when it is something that is actually relevant to the faction in some way. But for marines, it is not. It doesn't bring anything.
For example, for Sisters, it is a useful toy to show the byzantine ways of how the Imperium works, by making decree and instantly subverting them while respecting the letter of the law yet disparaging instantly the spirit of it.

I'm sorry, pardon the expression. This is where I have to call total BS. GW comes up with some flimsy technicality to mask the fact that that they thought it'd be cool to have a bunch of large breasted females running around in sexy, form-fitting power armour, and that's essential fluff, and the all-male nature of Space Marines is superfluous? That's complete nonsense. The hyper-masculine, fraternal nature of Space Marines IS Space Marines. It's the very core of the feel of the Army, and it's the fundamental basis for the 30 years of success of Space Marines, and 40k, and Games Workshop. The minute GW makes an about face on 30 years of grimdark to pander to SJW's is the moment it completely loses it's relevance. This would hurt the Company with it's core audience more than it would help.

There's been a whole bunch of arguments made here about the rigorous selection process and trials being superfluous as well. That's just not an accurate reading of 30 years of well established narrative.

The argument has been made that GW is free to go ahead and change all that if they want, and that's true. Look at what they did to WFB. The question is: Why? Is having female Space Marines going to make them more apealing to guys? No. Is it going to make them more appealing to girls? No. Girls are not going to be drawn to big brutish female Space Marines any more than they are drawn to big brutish male Space Marines. Let's get real here. We're talking about a Wargame. Wargames are never going to be as appealing to women as they are to men in the first place. Why inject something into something that's a winning formula that no one really wants except a few starry eyed Liberals? The only reason to do it would be out of political correctness.

The reason people get touchy about Space Marines in particular is that it seems like in some people's minds, any kind of fraternal ethos is just not allowed in our society right now .Although everything feminine is just fine and wonderful these days, certain people seem to want to make the argument that there should be no dark corner of western civilization anywhere that isn't appealing to the ladies. What's going to be next, do we have to start putting little bows on men's underwear to make it more accessible to women? There's all kinds of stuff out there that's just for girls, and it's not appealing to men, and there's nothing wrong with that. Space Marines are designed to be very male and to be appealing to guys and their fraternal nature and more basic, agressive male instincts and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not like it's a country club that doesn't allow non- whites. There's no reason a girl could not play a Space Marine army. Look how many guys play SoB. There's no barrier to entry for girls other than that it's got a very male energy and it likely doesn't appeal to them that much, and the isn't a thing wrong with that .

As for 40k in general, it's not so accessible to girls, I think we'd all like it if that changed. There are many places in the 40k Universe where women are underepresented in comparison with where the fluff says they should be. I think that's an excellent place to look. I would love to see more female Guard and Eldar, and more Female Special Characters. Female Chaos stuff, and even some female CSM stuff could be completely badass. As for SoB I would lay money on the table that says they are in for a total redisign, and are going to come back in a big way, and I'm excited to see that.

I don't think we should delve into the Star Wars thing here, because it's not relevant. Star Wars is not built on a decades long narrative of any kind of fraternal order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Are you seriously putting the not-translated-digidex more-than-20-years-old-monopose-metal-miniature direct-order-only faction on the same level as the twenty-different-codices dozens-of-thousand-of-plastic-and-resin-miniatures posterboy factions?

Yes he is. The reason SoB has not been as well supported as SM is not because GW is sexist, it's that the sales numbers aren't there. Sisters are being put out to pasture at the moment, but I don't think that's because that's meant to be the end of Sisters, but because I think they want to sell all the inventory before they completely redesign the army.

 Weboflies wrote:

The reason people get touchy about Space Marines in particular is that it seems like in some people's minds, any kind of fraternal ethos is just not allowed in our society right now. What's going to be next, do we have to start putting little bows on men's underwear to make it more accessible to women? There's all kinds of stuff out there that's just for girls, and it's not appealing to men, and there's nothing wrong with that. Space Marines are designed to be very male and to be appealing to guys and their fraternal nature and more basic, agressive male instincts and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not like it's a country club that doesn't allow non- whites. There's no reason a girl could not play a Space Marine army. Look how many guys play SoB. There's no barrier to entry for girls other than that it's got a very male energy and it likely doesn't appeal to them that much, and the isn't a thing wrong with that .

 Weboflies wrote:
As for 40k in general, it's not so accessible to girls, I think we'd all like it if that changed. There are many places in the 40k Universe where women are underepresented in comparison with where the fluff says they should be. I think that's an excellent place to look. I would love to see more female Guard and Eldar, and more Female Special Characters. Female Chaos stuff, and even some female CSM stuff could be completely badass.

Exactly, there are factions that would benefit way more from including females than SMs would (though I'd argue CSM don't make sense unless there's female SMs). If the objective was to make the game more accessible to girls, this would be the way to go.

Also, SoB seem more like a male fantasy to me. I'm male but most girls I know would be much more interested in the Eldar than BDSM space nuns with wig-like hair.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

You can sure piss so-called “geeks” easily. Especially when it involve black peoples or women.
Let's take this, for instance. I am sure it would make a lot of them outraged. Totally offended. Like a mental breakdown.
They are so touchy-touchy about their feelings. Likely they still don't get that Star Wars was made to make money and that the people that own the IP can do whatever they want with it, with no obligations to them. They have a weird, unjustified feeling of “owning” Star Wars.

Anyhow, how was that related to my point? Those oversensitive, perpetually outraged so-called “geeks” are usually adults, not teenagers, are they not? Teenagers, especially the younger ones, didn't seem to have any problem with the new Star Wars movie and it's use of a female main character, did they? I am pretty sure that little Timmy has not yet been infected by the virus that makes them allergic any depiction of a woman as capable while wearing sensible clothes. They are not the ones who would complain if female Space Marines became a thing. Some of them would maybe decide that their whole Chapter is male, other will have a mix, a few might enjoy an all-female or mostly female one. But the people that will have a mental breakdown and will start to froth at the mouth (or send GW death threats?) are those that are older.

I dunno to me "oversensitive and perpetually outraged" sounds like a pretty fitting description of yourself and SJWs in general.

No one who likes fantasy / sci-fi, I think, is allergic to any depiction of "a woman being capable whilst wearing sensible clothing". The fantasy / sci-fi genre has its roots in Nordic mythology which in strong contrast to the Abrahamic thing where women are generally on the same level as dogshit, Nordic mythology has plenty of robustly male characters but also plenty of capable and confident female characters.. The Valkyrie, Sisters of Norn etc. There is a direct line from Nordic mythology through medieval fairy tales to Tolkein and later Star Wars and the rest and throughout there are plenty of strong female characters who take care of business, often times they are the main hero(ine). GW is on that same pagan storytelling path and they do too have plenty of interesting and strong female characters. There is nothing to complain about in the nordic / euro pagan storytelling traditions of which GW is a part.

If you want to white knight for the fairer sex go to the middle east.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't understand

He/she means he/she doesn't care about the fluff reasons for SMs being male.

Although... this is the background forum though so it'd make more sense to use that line of reasoning in the general discussion forum. Fluff is solid on why they're male, there's no changing it without rewriting the entire setting and all the HH books. Not going to happen.

pm713 wrote:
So breast armour? Great. Everyone loves that.

How exactly would you use pronouns?

Not just breast armour. Hair, faces, frames, etc. Doesn't work as well on some factions. But yea, they already exist and do a good job of it. Scroll up

Well their frames are basically identical as are the faces. Hair you can kind of do but I can think of exactly 1 model that is helmless and 1 that shows faces. It really doesn't work with Eldar.

The funny thing about this discussion though is I seriously doubt most girls would actually be interested in female SMs unless they underwent a radical redesign.

I mean instead of bulky mostly-bald dudes (whose faces and necks are sometimes described as inhumanly wide btw, I choose to ignore that though lol) running around in bulky armour, you'll get bulky mostly-bald male and females running around in bulky armour. You'd only be able to tell the gender apart when the helmets are off and they'd be rather ugly. And if the HH descriptions are any indication, they'd have impossibly wide faces and necks to boot, not to mention their already ridiculously wide bodies.

So there's really little benefit but you'd need to break the fluff to achieve this. Much better to focus the energy on factions that actually need it. I think if someone truly cared about including females, they'd focus their energy on redesigning the SoB (which frankly seem like a ridiculous male fantasy) and on including more IG/Tau females.

Also, you seem to like the SoB so why argue for female SMs? The only reason they exist is because there are no female SMs so they needed some all-female faction to balance it out. That's pretty much their whole reason for existence, which is possibly why they're neglected so much.

And again, Eldar/DE are great, that's the way to go.

pm713 wrote:
Well their frames are basically identical as are the faces. Hair you can kind of do but I can think of exactly 1 model that is helmless and 1 that shows faces. It really doesn't work with Eldar.

Really? I think they're pretty easy to tell apart. Maybe DE more than Eldar as they have newer models. What about the DE wyches? The Kabalite Warriors are a bit harder to tell apart but it's pretty obvious they're mixed gender.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
I'd argue CSM don't make sense unless there's female SMs

While the SM would take tinkering with the gene-seed as heresy, the CSM would have no reason not to, and would maybe not find it too difficult to adapt it to women. From a more meta standpoint, I don't think it would take away from the character of CSM in the same way it would SM

most girls I know would be much more interested in the Eldar than BDSM space nuns with wig-like hair.

One thing had continually surprises me in looking at Fantasy/ Sci Fi art on sites like deviantart.com and the like that is done by women themselves, as well as the whole cosplay thing, is that some girls seem to find the sexualized portrayal of strong female characters just as appealing as the guys do. Women are more naturally sexually demonstrative and extroverted than men, and as long as the characters are sexual in a way that's not demeaning, exploitative, or disempowering, a surprising number of girls identify with that it seems. That said, as I said above, I think the future of SoB is going to be less sexualized. Time will tell I guess.

pm713 wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't understand

He/she means he/she doesn't care about the fluff reasons for SMs being male.

Although... this is the background forum though so it'd make more sense to use that line of reasoning in the general discussion forum. Fluff is solid on why they're male, there's no changing it without rewriting the entire setting and all the HH books. Not going to happen.

pm713 wrote:
So breast armour? Great. Everyone loves that.

How exactly would you use pronouns?

Not just breast armour. Hair, faces, frames, etc. Doesn't work as well on some factions. But yea, they already exist and do a good job of it. Scroll up

Well their frames are basically identical as are the faces. Hair you can kind of do but I can think of exactly 1 model that is helmless and 1 that shows faces. It really doesn't work with Eldar.

You also know there are female eldar models right? It's not actually hard to make female eldar. They do it. It's also not hard to make female tau, or even female guard. I mean if they want to be really lazy all they need to do is make a SC and call them she. (They don't even need a model. They don't always have a model foe every SC they have, or they can just cheat and use a vehicle model too.) Getting the models isn't hard. People just think it is.

nomotog wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't understand

He/she means he/she doesn't care about the fluff reasons for SMs being male.

Although... this is the background forum though so it'd make more sense to use that line of reasoning in the general discussion forum. Fluff is solid on why they're male, there's no changing it without rewriting the entire setting and all the HH books. Not going to happen.

pm713 wrote:
So breast armour? Great. Everyone loves that.

How exactly would you use pronouns?

Not just breast armour. Hair, faces, frames, etc. Doesn't work as well on some factions. But yea, they already exist and do a good job of it. Scroll up

Well their frames are basically identical as are the faces. Hair you can kind of do but I can think of exactly 1 model that is helmless and 1 that shows faces. It really doesn't work with Eldar.

You also know there are female eldar models right? It's not actually hard to make female eldar. They do it. It's also not hard to make female tau, or even female guard. I mean if they want to be really lazy all they need to do is make a SC and call them she. (They don't even need a model. They don't always have a model foe every SC they have, or they can just cheat and use a vehicle model too.) Getting the models isn't hard. People just think it is.

Yeah I know. Name one where it's clearly female from the model alone in a way other than boob armour.

Tau and Guard I agree are easy.

pm713 wrote:

nomotog wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't understand

He/she means he/she doesn't care about the fluff reasons for SMs being male.

Although... this is the background forum though so it'd make more sense to use that line of reasoning in the general discussion forum. Fluff is solid on why they're male, there's no changing it without rewriting the entire setting and all the HH books. Not going to happen.

pm713 wrote:
So breast armour? Great. Everyone loves that.

How exactly would you use pronouns?

Not just breast armour. Hair, faces, frames, etc. Doesn't work as well on some factions. But yea, they already exist and do a good job of it. Scroll up

Well their frames are basically identical as are the faces. Hair you can kind of do but I can think of exactly 1 model that is helmless and 1 that shows faces. It really doesn't work with Eldar.

You also know there are female eldar models right? It's not actually hard to make female eldar. They do it. It's also not hard to make female tau, or even female guard. I mean if they want to be really lazy all they need to do is make a SC and call them she. (They don't even need a model. They don't always have a model foe every SC they have, or they can just cheat and use a vehicle model too.) Getting the models isn't hard. People just think it is.

Yeah I know. Name one where it's clearly female from the model alone in a way other than boob armour.

Tau and Guard I agree are easy.

Why?

nomotog wrote:

pm713 wrote:

nomotog wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't understand

He/she means he/she doesn't care about the fluff reasons for SMs being male.

Although... this is the background forum though so it'd make more sense to use that line of reasoning in the general discussion forum. Fluff is solid on why they're male, there's no changing it without rewriting the entire setting and all the HH books. Not going to happen.

pm713 wrote:
So breast armour? Great. Everyone loves that.

How exactly would you use pronouns?

Not just breast armour. Hair, faces, frames, etc. Doesn't work as well on some factions. But yea, they already exist and do a good job of it. Scroll up

Well their frames are basically identical as are the faces. Hair you can kind of do but I can think of exactly 1 model that is helmless and 1 that shows faces. It really doesn't work with Eldar.

You also know there are female eldar models right? It's not actually hard to make female eldar. They do it. It's also not hard to make female tau, or even female guard. I mean if they want to be really lazy all they need to do is make a SC and call them she. (They don't even need a model. They don't always have a model foe every SC they have, or they can just cheat and use a vehicle model too.) Getting the models isn't hard. People just think it is.

Yeah I know. Name one where it's clearly female from the model alone in a way other than boob armour.

Tau and Guard I agree are easy.

Why?

Tau you just need to show off their forehead difference thing. Guard you can get away with things like frames and hair because they do have headgear that can let hair out.

look if 40k is sexist, stop giving GW money, stop paying them. that;s the best way to send a messsage they neither know, nor care, what's said on a third party forum.

BrianDavion wrote:
look if 40k is sexist, stop giving GW money, stop paying them. that;s the best way to send a messsage they neither know, nor care, what's said on a third party forum.

It really isn't. They have absolutely no way of knowing why you stopped therefore no message is sent. All they know is that for some reason you have stopped.

Completely unacceptable post. Don't do this again. --Janthkin

 Chef_of_Cadia wrote:
Talks like this is why Star Wars died, even though it had females.

It sure seems to be making a lot of money (and new movies) for something that is dead.

Sororitas didn't sell because quite frankly nobody who actually plays this game wants an all female army for the table top.

Alternatively, SoB didn't sell well because they were an all-metal army (AKA hell from a modeling point of view) with a limited product line and terrible obsolete rules. The fact that they're still around (if only with very limited support) actually suggests that SoB sold better than some of GW's male models which did go OOP.


Edit: removed quote of blatant rule #1 violation now that the original post has been dealt with.

 Peregrine wrote:
SoB didn't sell well because they were an all-metal army (AKA hell from a modeling point of view) with a limited product line and terrible obsolete rules. The fact that they're still around (if only with very limited support) actually suggests that SoB sold better than some of GW's male models which did go OOP.

I don't really know if that's true. When Sisters were released, most of 40k the range was metal. There was some serious groan factor with SoB. The models were a little too sexualized. I wanted to get a small force going, but there was a bit of a pervy vibe about the whole thing that was a bit of a deterrent. In the end I just loved the seraphim models too much and used them as allies for my Marines for a time (along w a squad of Arbites , that for some strange reason I never thought to paint like Mega-City Judges, but I digress...) It just never sold very well, even when metal was par for the course, and the Codex was new and being supported. They can come out with plastics and support the hell out of it, and it will never sell as well as the other armies. If it brings some girls into the game though, I don't think it needs to sell all that well to be a plus for GW and the Hobby. Kind of like the way Walmart intentionally loses millions of dollars a day on laundry soap just to get people into the store.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Chef_of_Cadia wrote:
Talks like this is why Star Wars died, even though it had females.

It sure seems to be making a lot of money (and new movies) for something that is dead.

Sororitas didn't sell because quite frankly nobody who actually plays this game wants an all female army for the table top.

Alternatively, SoB didn't sell well because they were an all-metal army (AKA hell from a modeling point of view) with a limited product line and terrible obsolete rules. The fact that they're still around (if only with very limited support) actually suggests that SoB sold better than some of GW's male models which did go OOP.

Indeed. SW's going strong, here's the thing... SW didn't suddenly retcon Luke into a woman. retcon Han into an asian guy etc, they simply introduced a new character within the lore who just happened to yes be a woman. that IMHO is the way to do it. don't issue retcons. just bring in new characters. an intreasting character is an intreasting character.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
And female SMs would replace the SoB completely. Just think of SMs as brothers of battle and there you go.

Or just go Eldar, there's a good balance there.

Hum, what about no? SM, male or female, don't have what I like about Sisters of Battle, and neither do Eldar. Similarly, Sisters of Battle, even male ones, wouldn't have what someone like, say, Ashiraya likes about Space Marines.
They are different armies, with a different fluff, a different aesthetics, and different rules. They are not interchangeable.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
This has an impact on the setting as it shows how dogma and tradition have possibly handicapped the Astartes and further emphasises the difference of the dystopian Imperium and our (more) liberal lives today.

Then I don't think it works as intended. Because you just see soooo many people explaining you that this is because only manly male man can do the work a space marine do, meaning the “dystopian” and “handicap” part flew completely over their head. GW would definitely need to write the new fluff differently if they wanted to carry that vibe around the all-male rule in the future.
The Decree Passive works way better. It is written directly in the fluff blurb that this was about respecting the words of the Decree while not respecting the spirit of it.

 Weboflies wrote:
GW comes up with some flimsy technicality to mask the fact that that they thought it'd be cool to have a bunch of large breasted females running around in sexy, form-fitting power armour, and that's essential fluff, and the all-male nature of Space Marines is superfluous?

I didn't say it was essential. I said it worked to carry something, and that if we were to remove it, it would be nice to have some other fluff element added to carry over the same notion.
I.E. It's NOT essential, but it still serve some purpose. I don't feel the all-male marine thing serve some purpose, given that it is as far as I know only one line in the “Creation fo a Space Marine” old article…

 Weboflies wrote:
The minute GW makes an about face on 30 years of grimdark to pander to SJW's is the moment it completely loses it's relevance.

The moment you call it “pander to SJW” is the moment you give up on any element of rationality or objectivity .

 Weboflies wrote:
Is having female Space Marines going to make them more apealing to guys? No. Is it going to make them more appealing to girls? No. Girls are not going to be drawn to big brutish female Space Marines any more than they are drawn to big brutish male Space Marines. Let's get real here.

Okay. Let's get real. What do you have to back your facts?

 Weboflies wrote:
The reason people get touchy about Space Marines in particular is that it seems like in some people's minds, any kind of fraternal ethos is just not allowed in our society right now. Although everything feminine is just fine and wonderful these days, certain people seem to want to make the argument that there should be no dark corner of western civilization anywhere that isn't appealing to the ladies. What's going to be next, do we have to start putting little bows on men's underwear to make it more accessible to women? There's all kinds of stuff out there that's just for girls, and it's not appealing to men, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I really don't get you. I can easily name a bunch of places that still have the “fraternal ethos” you are talking about. Just join your favorite Monastery and you'll get to be all fraternal with your brothers. Or join the French Foreign Legion. But yeah, people tend to like mixed-gender organization these days. However, I don't see more organization that are closed to men than closed to women. Also, I am pretty sure men sexy underwear being made to look attractive to women (and gay men) is the whole point of sexy underwear, is it not?
I guess I need you to tell me more about which stuff is “just for girls”, so I can get your point better. Is it shows like “My little pony”? Or hobbies like sewing or make-up?

Also, why do you think that only women would be interested in female Space Marines? As you said yourself, there are plenty of men that play SoB. Why would no men be interested in having female SM too?

 SolarCross wrote:
I dunno to me "oversensitive and perpetually outraged" sounds like a pretty fitting description of yourself and SJWs in general.

Rule #1. I didn't insult your personally.

 SolarCross wrote:
No one who likes fantasy / sci-fi, I think, is allergic to any depiction of "a woman being capable whilst wearing sensible clothing". The fantasy / sci-fi genre has its roots in Nordic mythology which in strong contrast to the Abrahamic thing where women are generally on the same level as dogshit, Nordic mythology has plenty of robustly male characters but also plenty of capable and confident female characters.. The Valkyrie, Sisters of Norn etc. There is a direct line from Nordic mythology through medieval fairy tales to Tolkein and later Star Wars and the rest and throughout there are plenty of strong female characters who take care of business, often times they are the main hero(ine). GW is on that same pagan storytelling path and they do too have plenty of interesting and strong female characters. There is nothing to complain about in the nordic / euro pagan storytelling traditions of which GW is a part.

Sure. That's why you are explaining to me why female SM would be SOOOOOOOO terrible. Also, the sci-fi genre has its root in Nordic mythology. Also GW has plenty of strong female character in sensible clothing, hence why there are like 3 female SC that have a model, and one of them is wearing a bikini .
I totally agree with you that Tolkien would never have given any female character a bikini armor though, that man had way too much self-respect to do this. But your main error here is to conflate the so-called “geeks” that cried us a river because of Rey and Finn with every fan of fantasy or sci-fi. Those so-called “geeks” sure love to pretend that they are representative of the whole, but that's complete bs. I am not saying fantasy is misogynistic. I am saying we have had an infection of horrible cry-bullies that whines and whines every time there is a female character that is more than Suckerpunch-type spank material. “You are censoring her by putting her in a burka”, they cry out, when the camera stop focusing on her butt, and she starts wearing armor that looks protective.
Case in point, your “geeks“ were angry at the appearance of a black Stormtrooper because… they didn't know the lore enough, and assumed it was a contradiction of it. If that's not both a proof they were looking to be offended and a proof they were not the hardcore fans they pretend to be, what is? Meanwhile, most people that like the franchise (including the actual hardcore fans that actually know about the lore, and those that just enjoy the movies without going deeper into the universe) enjoyed the movies.

BrianDavion wrote:
look if 40k is sexist, stop giving GW money, stop paying them. that;s the best way to send a messsage they neither know, nor care, what's said on a third party forum.

- Hey, look, Bob. Our sales dropped in May/June 2016.
- Oh, you are right, Jack. That can only mean one thing.
* in chorus * Our consumers think we are sexist and if we want to get sales back we need to make female space marines !

And that's a conversation that will never happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Indeed. SW's going strong, here's the thing... SW didn't suddenly retcon Luke into a woman. retcon Han into an asian guy etc, they simply introduced a new character within the lore who just happened to yes be a woman. that IMHO is the way to do it. don't issue retcons. just bring in new characters. an intreasting character is an intreasting character.

Nobody is calling to retcon Marneus Calgar, Yarrick or the Emperor into women. We are just calling for new Space Marines SC that are women.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slightly related: just found “Disney Princess reimagined as Space Marines”, and it's… surprisingly nice ^^.
You will find :
- Khornate Ariel
- Black Templar Snow-White
- Raven Guard Jasmine
- Space Wolf Beauty (I think? I'm not very good at Disney princesses).

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gr69tp86thp56wu/AADIR3KVBhaYENykVenDMiwxa?dl=0

I really don't get you. I can easily name a bunch of places that still have the “fraternal ethos” you are talking about. Just join your favorite Monastery and you'll get to be all fraternal with your brothers. Or join the French Foreign Legion. But yeah, people tend to like mixed-gender organization these days.

Space marines are monks being fraternal with their brothers.
'These days' are not a brutal scifi dystopia where might makes right with historical themes.
(They are rapidly becoming a brutal scifi distopia where speech is controlled and opposing opinions are labelled as hateful)

40k is popular precisely because it evokes the feeling of antiquity whilst having laser guns and magic powers.
It's also popular because you CAN have practically anything you want- the galaxy is vast and unexplored.

Here's your Fem-Marines.

 =Angel= wrote:
'These days' are not a brutal scifi dystopia where might makes right with historical themes.

Did you read the context of what you quoted?

Weboflies wrote: “The reason people get touchy about Space Marines in particular is that it seems like in some people's minds, any kind of fraternal ethos is just not allowed in our society right now. Although everything feminine is just fine and wonderful these days, certain people seem to want to make the argument that there should be no dark corner of western civilization anywhere that isn't appealing to the ladies.

 =Angel= wrote:
(They are rapidly becoming a brutal scifi distopia where speech is controlled and opposing opinions are labelled as hateful)

Oh, cry me a river because people are calling you out when you say sexist stuff. If you can't handle opposing opinions, you have no deal pretending to defend “free speech”.

Here, allow me to make it easy for you.

- If, when you say something, people are allowed to criticize it and say it was bad of you to say it, that's free speech. Yeah, even if they “label your opinions as hateful”. It's their freedom of speech.
- If, when you say something, the government send you to prison, that is speech being controlled.

 Weboflies wrote:
The reason SoB has not been as well supported as SM is not because GW is sexist, it's that the sales numbers aren't there.

Just to clarify, because I see this a fair bit: we don't know that.

Unless you've got some fascinating new source with actual financial numbers or credible quotes directly from GW HQ, there is (almost*) nothing, concrete about why the Sisters occupy their current nearly-but-not-quite-squatted status. All there is is conjecture, and hack theories (wanna hear mine?). For all we know faction updating could be decided based on a roulette wheel, and the SoB just haven't had their number come up yet.

* I say almost due to that one quote from years ago about 'solving the moulding issues', that is so stale at this point I don't think it counts for much.

. . .

As to the actual topic; my 2 cents is as follows:

Cent 1 - GW definitely has a, lets call it: Issue with Representation.

Cent 2 - Would female SM fix that issue? Maybe?(Depending alot on implementation.) But there are most certainly other ways to go about it, and far better places to start. (Such as by not treating the male-only faction as the be-all-and-end-all.)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Indeed. SW's going strong, here's the thing... SW didn't suddenly retcon Luke into a woman. retcon Han into an asian guy etc, they simply introduced a new character within the lore who just happened to yes be a woman. that IMHO is the way to do it. don't issue retcons. just bring in new characters. an intreasting character is an intreasting character.

Nobody is calling to retcon Marneus Calgar, Yarrick or the Emperor into women. We are just calling for new Space Marines SC that are women.

no you're just asking them to retcon something else.