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Should there even be TAC in a wargame?

Shouldn't an all-Armor list dominate an open field, while an all-infantry list excels in close terrain like a ruined city?

My main complain so far is wizards. Wizards everywhere. Every game has wizards rolling around psy shreiking left and right and invizing everything.

 koooaei wrote:
My main complain so far is wizards. Wizards everywhere. Every game has wizards rolling around psy shreiking left and right and invizing everything.

I completely agree that invisibility is obnoxious.

That said, do you really find psychic shriek problematic? That's an "18" on the range part of the stat-line.

You don't want to get psychic shrieked? Then stay out of range.

This is only really problematic if the psyker is a flying MC.

I've recently play-tested a couple of games using Ahriman, and they were both pretty brutal because of my spam of psychic shriek...

...but only because my opponent insisted on putting stuff within 24-30 inches of Ahriman.

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Yoyoyo wrote:
Should there even be TAC in a wargame?

Yes.

Because it's a game.

 Traditio wrote:
That said, do you really find psychic shriek problematic? That's an "18" on the range part of the stat-line.

You don't want to get psychic shrieked? Then stay out of range.

Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

JimOnMars wrote:Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

Have you tried orks in trukks and battle wagons? Psychic shriek can't target vehicles.

And it counts as a shooting attack. Once you tie up the psyker in close combat, he's done shrieking until he gets out.

Again, I really don't think the problem is psychic shriek.

The problem is flying monstrous creatures who are also psykers.

 Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

Have you tried orks in trukks and battle wagons? Psychic shriek can't target vehicles.

And it counts as a shooting attack. Once you tie up the psyker in close combat, he's done shrieking until he gets out.

Again, I really don't think the problem is psychic shriek.

The problem is flying monstrous creatures who are also psykers.

Haven't played a shrieker since I got 5 trukks. Will try that!

 Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

Have you tried orks in trukks and battle wagons? Psychic shriek can't target vehicles.

And it counts as a shooting attack. Once you tie up the psyker in close combat, he's done shrieking until he gets out.

Again, I really don't think the problem is psychic shriek.

The problem is flying monstrous creatures who are also psykers.

Let's take out the only thing keeping tyranids in tournaments out of the game!

No Traditio, the problem is that all MCs seem to have 3+ armor minimum, and all skyfire is AP 4.

Or perhaps they should bump down. TMC base prices and Jack up the Wings upgrade?

Bharring wrote:
Or perhaps they should bump down. TMC base prices and Jack up the Wings upgrade?

This would help as well. TMC cost going down would spell doom for the have-not codices, but at this point, who cares? The have-nots can lose to someone new.

Martel732 wrote:
No Traditio, the problem is that all MCs seem to have 3+ armor minimum, and all skyfire is AP 4.

Pretty sure the Nid FMC's that aren't flyrants have 4+.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No Traditio, the problem is that all MCs seem to have 3+ armor minimum, and all skyfire is AP 4.

Pretty sure the Nid FMC's that aren't flyrants have 4+.

I've never seen one of those. All flyrants. Always.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No Traditio, the problem is that all MCs seem to have 3+ armor minimum, and all skyfire is AP 4.

Pretty sure the Nid FMC's that aren't flyrants have 4+.

Hive crones apparently have a 4+ armor save. I did not know that.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

Have you tried orks in trukks and battle wagons? Psychic shriek can't target vehicles.

And it counts as a shooting attack. Once you tie up the psyker in close combat, he's done shrieking until he gets out.

Again, I really don't think the problem is psychic shriek.

The problem is flying monstrous creatures who are also psykers.

Let's take out the only thing keeping tyranids in tournaments out of the game!

Making nobs LD8 and fixing mob rule would be a better alternative...but that gives orks good thinks, and so can't be allowed.

But LD7 gives me hope that my Death Jester will break a unit some day!

Granted, statistically, he should do that fairly often. But the dice gods hate him.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

JimOnMars wrote:Ork guns are 18", so if we stay out of range, we do literally nothing the whole game. And at LD7 and no invul psychic shriek just murders us.

Have you tried orks in trukks and battle wagons? Psychic shriek can't target vehicles.

And it counts as a shooting attack. Once you tie up the psyker in close combat, he's done shrieking until he gets out.

Again, I really don't think the problem is psychic shriek.

The problem is flying monstrous creatures who are also psykers.

Let's take out the only thing keeping tyranids in tournaments out of the game!

Making nobs LD8 and fixing mob rule would be a better alternative...but that gives orks good thinks, and so can't be allowed.

That about sums it up, anything good must not be given to Orks.

Zzap Gunz: Would be good if not for the Random strength rolls and just had the gets hot rule
Bubble Gun: Just trash, utter trash get rid of it nobody would care
Kill Kannon: Add 12in to range and 1-2 strength and it would be worth taking.
PKs: Only 1 model in the entire Ork range swings at initiative with a Power Klaw or S8+ AP2 weapon, and he is a out of print FW model
MegaNobz: Pathetically one of our best units and in any other codex they would never be taken because they suck that bad.
TankBustas: OMG a unit of Orks armed with Rokkitz? SICK! Range 24 and the model can only have 6+ armor.
Lootas: Would be good if it wasn't for the Random shots, and the lack of ballistic skill, and hte lack of armor, and the lack of leadership
ALL ORK WALKERS: about 50% over priced and one of them have ANY DAKKA! we are the fething faction that invented the word DAKKA and we don't have any.
Boyz: Once were good, now are bad. I can't say anything about them except they didn't evolve with the times and instead of getting tougher to deal with the plethora of multi shot, high strength weapons they all got weaker with mob rule changes.



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I could keep going but its just pathetic

The only unfun armies for me are mech imp guard, knights and SPESS MUREEN. Knights need to be forced into a low choice for an army and nothing more, mech guard need more toys so it's something other than a parking lot and SPESS MUREENZ need some damn flavour and need to spread the updates to the other races. Generic marines are so boring to play, ridiculous buffs and massive player base mean netlists for days,or slight variations.

Mech guard are not even that good. A couple of DS units will murder the lot, or at least buy time for the rest of the army to reach them.

And if you are playing Maelstrom (AKA: Schizophrenic random objective senseless killing method mode) then you can quite easily out-points them.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Mech guard are not even that good. A couple of DS units will murder the lot, or at least buy time for the rest of the army to reach them.

And if you are playing Maelstrom (AKA: Schizophrenic random objective senseless killing method mode) then you can quite easily out-points them.

didn't recall saying they were op, the thread is about unfun armies and shooting at an av14 wall isn't fun to me since most of my stuff can't touch it and limited DS.

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

"so that AP2/3 is rare"

This isn't why tactical marines are bad. They are bad because they have no offense and wound spam is the name of the game, so even cover is worthless.

Tactical Marines need to be able to take double special weapons or heavy weapons. It gives a small amount of specialization.

It isn't that big a fix, but I think it helps a lot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

"so that AP2/3 is rare"

This isn't why tactical marines are bad. They are bad because they have no offense and wound spam is the name of the game, so even cover is worthless.

Tactical Marines need to be able to take double special weapons or heavy weapons. It gives a small amount of specialization.

It isn't that big a fix, but I think it helps a lot.

Sure. Grey Hunters can do this, but they still aren't used much in 7th. And they have counter attack. And a close combat weapon. Still not considered awesome. Because they just get shot.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

"so that AP2/3 is rare"

This isn't why tactical marines are bad. They are bad because they have no offense and wound spam is the name of the game, so even cover is worthless.

Tactical Marines need to be able to take double special weapons or heavy weapons. It gives a small amount of specialization.

It isn't that big a fix, but I think it helps a lot.

Sure. Grey Hunters can do this, but they still aren't used much in 7th. And they have counter attack. And a close combat weapon. Still not considered awesome. Because they just get shot.

Because everyone buys the close combat weapons that costs2 ppm.

The CCW options for both Grey Hunters and CSM's should be 1 point, just like with Carcharodons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The CCW options for both Grey Hunters and CSM's should be 1 point, just like with Carcharodons.

I cannot support this enough.