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 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You're so adorable acting like ravenwing strike force is a big deal.

You play BA. Do you have roughly a 50/50 shot against them?

Feth no. But a lot better chance than against scatterlaser death.

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring". You're deliberately shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to change your list to take on what your opponent brings.

 War Kitten wrote:
Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring"

You are right. Changing your list based upon what your opponent takes is not "near" list tailoring.

It IS list tailoring.

 War Kitten wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring". You're deliberately shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to change your list to take on what your opponent brings.

I'm just going to ask:

Do you legitimately think that an army wide rerollable 2+, 3+ or 4+ cover save is anything but unfair and imbalanced?

Think about my poor lascannons!

 War Kitten wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring". You're deliberately shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to change your list to take on what your opponent brings.

I never get to do this. Remember, that if you can do it, they can do it. This is not a fix for unbalanced units. I for one am not telling you what I'm bringing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring". You're deliberately shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to change your list to take on what your opponent brings.

I'm just going to ask:

Do you legitimately think that an army wide rerollable 2+, 3+ or 4+ cover save is anything but unfair and imbalanced?

Think about my poor lascannons!

Lascannons are garbage. Quit using them.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring"

You are right. Changing your list based upon what your opponent takes is not "near" list tailoring.

It IS list tailoring.

Let's say I know my opponent is bringing Ravenwing. I'm going to bring something to counter that, to do anything else would be foolish. Now, seeing EXACTLY what my opponent has and bringing the best things to stomp him, THAT is list tailoring.

Everyone has their own views on what constitutes list tailoring, and that's mine.

 War Kitten wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring"

You are right. Changing your list based upon what your opponent takes is not "near" list tailoring.

It IS list tailoring.

Let's say I know my opponent is bringing Ravenwing. I'm going to bring something to counter that, to do anything else would be foolish. Now, seeing EXACTLY what my opponent has and bringing the best things to stomp him, THAT is list tailoring.

Everyone has their own views on what constitutes list tailoring, and that's mine.

What if you don't even know who you are playing?

" I'm going to bring something to counter that, "

That's list tailoring. Bring an agnostic list and see how much you enjoy DA.

Martel732 wrote:What if you don't even know who you are playing?

" I'm going to bring something to counter that, "

That's list tailoring. Bring an agnostic list and see how much you enjoy DA.

And what's crazy about it is that I actually have dedicated ignore cover in my army. It's just not effective against DA. My sternguard will wreck tyrranid Venomthropes. It will feth up their day seven ways from sunday.

T5 bikes with 3+ armor saves and rerollable jinks? Not so much.

Martel732 wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

1. Whatever happened to list-tailoring being taboo?

2. It's symptomatic of a broken game if you have to list tailor.

Being willing to change your list to make sure it can take on your opponent's is nowhere near "list tailoring". You're deliberately shooting yourself in the foot by refusing to change your list to take on what your opponent brings.

I never get to do this. Remember, that if you can do it, they can do it. This is not a fix for unbalanced units. I for one am not telling you what I'm bringing.

So you don't write you list as a take all comers? ie something for light vehicles , something for heavy vehicles , something for flyers something for horde , something for terms ect ( that is what they are talking about , not actual list tailoring ) Writing a list so you don't have short comings when something shows up is not list tailoring , its being a competent general. Those terms are not even in the same ballpark

kambien wrote:So you don't write you list as a take all comers? ie something for light vehicles , something for heavy vehicles , something for flyers something for horde , something for terms ect ( that is what they are talking about , not actual list tailoring ) Writing a list so you don't have short comings when something shows up is not list tailoring , its being a competent general. Those terms are not even in the same ballpark

Please write a SM list which will be equally good/effective against:

1. Ravenwing bike spam
2. Green Tide
3. An Imperial Guard tank company
4. Scatter bikes and wraithknights supported by seer councils.

Go on. I'll be waiting.

Yes, I do. And I even intentionally ignore flyers. But given that I'm BA, I can't shoot or assault well.

But I don't get the opportunity to even contemplate doing what he is describing.

Let's do the math.

IF Sternguard firing dragonfire ammunition at a ravenwing bike:

5/6 chance to hit X 1/3 chance to wound X 1/3 chance to bypass armor.

6 X 3 = 18. 18 X 3 = 54.

5/54.

I could rapidfire dragonfire with a 5 man squad and not even kill a single bike.

 Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:So you don't write you list as a take all comers? ie something for light vehicles , something for heavy vehicles , something for flyers something for horde , something for terms ect ( that is what they are talking about , not actual list tailoring ) Writing a list so you don't have short comings when something shows up is not list tailoring , its being a competent general. Those terms are not even in the same ballpark

Please write a SM list which will be equally good/effective against:

1. Ravenwing bike spam
2. Green Tide
3. An Imperial Guard tank company
4. Scatter bikes and wraithknights supported by seer councils.

Go on. I'll be waiting.

Whats the point ?
With your various "oh whoa is me" posts and your troll polls and the fact you mock people for buying models there is no point in even trying to help you . If tactical marines can't kill a vehicle the guy with the vehicle is already TFG to you and you refuse to play him (never mind the fact you COULD bring something ot pop the vehilce but choose not to) . You refuse to alter you list in ANY WAY from the models you have . I mean really , this hobby is not for you , trade you models for like x wing or war machine and be done with it already. You want this alternate version of the game that no one but you and a very few people ( and i'm just giving you those very few people ) want to play.

Also i don't have a SM codex so i'm not going to write a list for

I can field almost any conceivable BA list. It ends up not mattering, though.

I am amused by all the necron warrior hate in this thread.

Give necrons any form of psyker support or meaningful allies and I would do a back flip if they only costed as much as a marine.

 Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:So you don't write you list as a take all comers? ie something for light vehicles , something for heavy vehicles , something for flyers something for horde , something for terms ect ( that is what they are talking about , not actual list tailoring ) Writing a list so you don't have short comings when something shows up is not list tailoring , its being a competent general. Those terms are not even in the same ballpark

Please write a SM list which will be equally good/effective against:

1. Ravenwing bike spam
2. Green Tide
3. An Imperial Guard tank company
4. Scatter bikes and wraithknights supported by seer councils.

Go on. I'll be waiting.

Remove #2, Any army is good against the Green tide. Attack it on the two flanks and watch it spend the entire game consolidating into the two combats at S3

SemperMortis wrote:Remove #2, Any army is good against the Green tide. Attack it on the two flanks and watch it spend the entire game consolidating into the two combats at S3

grav spam?

Bigdoza wrote:
I am amused by all the necron warrior hate in this thread.

Give necrons any form of psyker support or meaningful allies and I would do a back flip if they only costed as much as a marine.

Try fighting them with BA. We have crap pskyers and allies don't count as BA being useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:Remove #2, Any army is good against the Green tide. Attack it on the two flanks and watch it spend the entire game consolidating into the two combats at S3

grav spam?

Ravenwing bikers will jink it all day.

 Traditio wrote:

I could rapidfire dragonfire with a 5 man squad and not even kill a single bike.

5 Sternguard are only about as much as 3 Terminators. They're not exactly the epitome of offense.

My offer stands. Tell me what you field, and I'll give you my best advice on how to use it to defeat Ravenwing.

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:5 Sternguard are only about as much as 3 Terminators. They're not exactly the epitome of offense.

My offer stands. Tell me what you field, and I'll give you my best advice on how to use it to defeat Ravenwing.

Check private messages.

Traditio, you are using vanilla marines?

Martel732 wrote:Ravenwing bikers will jink it all day.

I was referring to Green Tide.

Grav spam wouldn't really be effective vs. orks, would it?

Or ravenwing bikers, for that matter. Wounding on 3s and rerolling 2+ jink saves? No.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Ravenwing bikers will jink it all day.

I was referring to Green Tide.

Grav spam wouldn't really be effective vs. orks, would it?

Or ravenwing bikers, for that matter. Wounding on 3s and rerolling 2+ jink saves? No.

You don't want to out right spam grav because daemons are a thing.

ITT: Those whom can't understand 'fun' versus 'fair.'

 Torus wrote:
Nerf the entire Eldar book... really? You may see the bias on the profile pic but that has to be most lazy Eldar 'fix' that's going.

Given the vast presence of IoM players and the abuses of Battle Brothers, the constant and unrelenting Eldar prejudice is plainly comical. We won't be able to argue out of that thick bias.

 Cieged wrote:
ITT: Those whom can't understand 'fun' versus 'fair.'

To my mind, grossly unfair things aren't fun. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 Cieged wrote:
ITT: Those whom can't understand 'fun' versus 'fair.'

 Torus wrote:
Nerf the entire Eldar book... really? You may see the bias on the profile pic but that has to be most lazy Eldar 'fix' that's going.

Given the vast presence of IoM players and the abuses of Battle Brothers, the constant and unrelenting Eldar prejudice is plainly comical. We won't be able to argue out of that thick bias.

The primary abuse, drop pods, has already been nerfed out of the game. The best you can do now is put priests in Wolfstars or some such thing. Gladius needs no allies to win by force of model count. There are precious few IoM combos that match scatterbike/warp spider/WK, if any at all.

BA got their draft errata and leaked starter set rules today.

Just FYI

Martel732 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

Agreed. So it needs to be brought in line to an average.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

Yup. And they will continue to be so until either the power creep is addressed or they are buffed in some way. I'd rather see the creep addressed personally.

They just released the fething Wulfen. There is only one way power creep is going: up.

And Death From the Skies. Which nerfed most flyers. Including your own Stormraven. Besides, if power creep is going up, fine. Make all sub-par things to the same standard. As long as there are no autotakes in a TAC setting, I will not complain.

I'm not speaking from a real world perspective, but from an ideological one. And I don't expect my view to have any basis. But I doubt most views in here will. I can still say it.

Traditio wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Do you NEED free units to function?

After purchasing the captain and chaplain that I didn't want to get the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics? Yes. I need those free rhinos.

So, really, I'm assuming those leaders are barebones (why wouldn't they be, if they you didn't want them?). Assuming they're barebones, then for all the transports it's possible to get (10, 12 with command squads) Razorbacks.
So, 12 x 40= 480.
Now, I don't know about you, but I'm fairly sure a barebones Chaplain AND Captain cost less than that. Regardless of if you wanted them, you've saved far more points doing this AND got two more squishy MEQ bodies. I fail to see the negative at all.

It's an obvious choice, and according to you, if you get a smile when thinking of an idea, DON'T. Everything should be nerfed if it's an autotake. According to you, at least.
Also, this further proves my point of UM, after BT, being untreated when every other Chapter can be UM+1 with the Gladius.

And in which case, don't take free Rhinos/Razorbacks. Sorted. You can take effectively either buy your Rhino, or you can buy three bodies and a Rhino, and get two men for free. I like fluff, and the idea of 5 man Tactical squads does not appeal in the slightest. Take them if you want, but it's not strictly a full company. Only fluff companies get free troops.

Let your appreciation for the fluff be what it may; the fact remains that, as a game mechanic, requiring 10 man squads is too much of a tax for a rhino, especially in comparison to other codices, other army builds, etc. and their general power levels.

So, hence my point - to bring marines to the same standard, or even better, bring all armies up or down to the same one. If all armies were on this level field, without free transports, would you still be opposed to my idea?

War Kitten wrote:This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.

Yes, I've noticed.
But it's okay, because he, funnily enough, doesn't have to change his list.

With all the free transports their Gladius affords, why even bother shooting the enemy? You have that many ObSec transports, you can win by capping objectives. If it's a spectacle you're after, use full squads as per my suggestion. If you're not after a spectacle, or actually recognise that the idea is subjective, then continue to use your free transports which actually win games.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Ravenwing bikers will jink it all day.

I was referring to Green Tide.

Grav spam wouldn't really be effective vs. orks, would it?

Or ravenwing bikers, for that matter. Wounding on 3s and rerolling 2+ jink saves? No.

Grav spam would still work against Green tide because as I said, if you attack it from 2 different points the orks spend the entire game consolidating in at I2 and S3. At most your going to face between 9-15 S3 attacks a turn in CC. Your SMs with S4 T4 and 3+ saves will be fine. I have had this happen to me twice, the only thing the other player has to worry about is the random nobz consolidating in.