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Martel732 wrote:
Moving scatbikes to fa does nothing. Make SL 20 pt upgrade like an assault cannon. Maybe 25. It's a better weapon.

That's a fair call

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ld checks to trigger your rules got phased out for a reason, it sucks and prevents meaningful tactical decisions.

The Battle Sisters never got that memo.

Ditto for Imperial Guard.

Niether are a great example of an up-to-date functional and fun army, are they?

And oddly enough one has not been updated properly since forever, the other was intentionally nerfed by the developers and neither are the rules writers favourite armies. So, Tau should have to take some form of check to multi-overwatch. How about an initiative check? After all, they are having to react suddenly to a rapidly developing and very brief situation.

How about nerfing grav cannon with amp? It is too good if you compare it to other heavy weapons.

No, other imperial heavy weapons are too poor.

I'm just throwing in my view on the OP's opinion of Space Marines - the Gladius is not a problem. I doubt you have a problem with being forced to take 3x Tactical Squads, a Chaplain/Captain, Devastator/Dev Cents squad and Assault Squad/Bikers, plus a random auxiliary. That isn't a problem, because I can take that in CAD, minus a rerolled ability. The Gladius isn't a problem.

The bonus of two Demi-Companies is a problem, and I'd rectify that issue by saying that "If a unit has bought all available men to have a full squad, it may purchase a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback for no cost."
This way, if you want a free transport for a unit, you need a full 10 man squad to get it, supporting the fluff aspect. It becomes only available at higher point levels, and discourages the spamming of min Tac squads (which I am personally against. That would go some way in validating the full company for fluff players, and not making it so appealing for those trying to break the system, so to speak.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm just throwing in my view on the OP's opinion of Space Marines - the Gladius is not a problem. I doubt you have a problem with being forced to take 3x Tactical Squads, a Chaplain/Captain, Devastator/Dev Cents squad and Assault Squad/Bikers, plus a random auxiliary. That isn't a problem, because I can take that in CAD, minus a rerolled ability. The Gladius isn't a problem.

The bonus of two Demi-Companies is a problem, and I'd rectify that issue by saying that "If a unit has bought all available men to have a full squad, it may purchase a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback for no cost."
This way, if you want a free transport for a unit, you need a full 10 man squad to get it, supporting the fluff aspect. It becomes only available at higher point levels, and discourages the spamming of min Tac squads (which I am personally against. That would go some way in validating the full company for fluff players, and not making it so appealing for those trying to break the system, so to speak.

That is way too much of a tax for free rhinos.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm just throwing in my view on the OP's opinion of Space Marines - the Gladius is not a problem. I doubt you have a problem with being forced to take 3x Tactical Squads, a Chaplain/Captain, Devastator/Dev Cents squad and Assault Squad/Bikers, plus a random auxiliary. That isn't a problem, because I can take that in CAD, minus a rerolled ability. The Gladius isn't a problem.

The bonus of two Demi-Companies is a problem, and I'd rectify that issue by saying that "If a unit has bought all available men to have a full squad, it may purchase a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback for no cost."
This way, if you want a free transport for a unit, you need a full 10 man squad to get it, supporting the fluff aspect. It becomes only available at higher point levels, and discourages the spamming of min Tac squads (which I am personally against. That would go some way in validating the full company for fluff players, and not making it so appealing for those trying to break the system, so to speak.

Full company fluff doesn't matter in a game of WK and Riptides. 5 men need a free transport just to survive. If anything, modify what gets obj secured.

Putting 10 men in an AV 11 transport is a good way to get 10 guys stranded turn 1. 10 ineffectual guys, at that since going to 10 only gets you a single heavy/special weapon.

Traditio wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm just throwing in my view on the OP's opinion of Space Marines - the Gladius is not a problem. I doubt you have a problem with being forced to take 3x Tactical Squads, a Chaplain/Captain, Devastator/Dev Cents squad and Assault Squad/Bikers, plus a random auxiliary. That isn't a problem, because I can take that in CAD, minus a rerolled ability. The Gladius isn't a problem.

The bonus of two Demi-Companies is a problem, and I'd rectify that issue by saying that "If a unit has bought all available men to have a full squad, it may purchase a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback for no cost."
This way, if you want a free transport for a unit, you need a full 10 man squad to get it, supporting the fluff aspect. It becomes only available at higher point levels, and discourages the spamming of min Tac squads (which I am personally against. That would go some way in validating the full company for fluff players, and not making it so appealing for those trying to break the system, so to speak.

That is way too much of a tax for free rhinos.

Do you NEED free units to function? And in which case, don't take free Rhinos/Razorbacks. Sorted. You can take effectively either buy your Rhino, or you can buy three bodies and a Rhino, and get two men for free. I like fluff, and the idea of 5 man Tactical squads does not appeal in the slightest. Take them if you want, but it's not strictly a full company. Only fluff companies get free troops.

Martel732 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm just throwing in my view on the OP's opinion of Space Marines - the Gladius is not a problem. I doubt you have a problem with being forced to take 3x Tactical Squads, a Chaplain/Captain, Devastator/Dev Cents squad and Assault Squad/Bikers, plus a random auxiliary. That isn't a problem, because I can take that in CAD, minus a rerolled ability. The Gladius isn't a problem.

The bonus of two Demi-Companies is a problem, and I'd rectify that issue by saying that "If a unit has bought all available men to have a full squad, it may purchase a Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback for no cost."
This way, if you want a free transport for a unit, you need a full 10 man squad to get it, supporting the fluff aspect. It becomes only available at higher point levels, and discourages the spamming of min Tac squads (which I am personally against. That would go some way in validating the full company for fluff players, and not making it so appealing for those trying to break the system, so to speak.

Full company fluff doesn't matter in a game of WK and Riptides. 5 men need a free transport just to survive. If anything, modify what gets obj secured.

Putting 10 men in an AV 11 transport is a good way to get 10 guys stranded turn 1. 10 ineffectual guys, at that since going to 10 only gets you a single heavy/special weapon.

So fix Tactical Marines. Make them either cheaper (not my ideal strategy), better (leads to codex creep) or balance the game so that AP2/3 is rarer and power armour become decent again.
I don't care if my opponent wants to take WK and Riptides - what about games against Orks or CSM where they'd be helpless against my min squads?

Er, what? Putting 5 men in an AV11 transport will get them stranded turn 1. So why bother? Just take Scouts then.
Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy, and depending on how I combat squad, it might only invalidate 5.

"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

"so that AP2/3 is rare"

This isn't why tactical marines are bad. They are bad because they have no offense and wound spam is the name of the game, so even cover is worthless.

20 pts on a Bike, yes.

20 points on a Vyper or Falcon, no.

What if Spiders death spinners were S5, reroll successful pens. Would that help? Probably remove flicker jump *too*.

Hawks should only move 12".

DAS should go back to Counterstrike, not bs2 over watch.

Wraith guard, sans DE deployments, are fine. But they do feel like the shooty variants should be SnP

FD need to lose Assured Destruction.

It almost feels like CWE should just use the 6e Dex, except for Serpents.

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

Agreed. So it needs to be brought in line to an average.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

Yup. And they will continue to be so until either the power creep is addressed or they are buffed in some way. I'd rather see the creep addressed personally.

"so that AP2/3 is rare"

This isn't why tactical marines are bad. They are bad because they have no offense and wound spam is the name of the game, so even cover is worthless.

So bring them in line with what is necessary to be useful. Nerf the durability of units so that they may harm them with more regularity, or increase their strength. I favour the former.

Bharring wrote:
20 pts on a Bike, yes.

20 points on a Vyper or Falcon, no.

What if Spiders death spinners were S5, reroll successful pens. Would that help? Probably remove flicker jump *too*.

Hawks should only move 12".

DAS should go back to Counterstrike, not bs2 over watch.

Wraith guard, sans DE deployments, are fine. But they do feel like the shooty variants should be SnP

FD need to lose Assured Destruction.

It almost feels like CWE should just use the 6e Dex, except for Serpents.

20 pts period. It's an incredible weapon. I don't understand why you can't understand this. It kills IKs for crying out loud. It kills light infantry. It kills heavy infantry. The only thing it doesn't kill is AV 13/14 and 2+ armor save MCs. And the D-cannons/bladestorm units kill those.

At this point, you can have the serpents back. Their firepower is tame compared to scatterbikes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Not to mention that I can take a special AND heavy"

That's pathetic firepower for a 10 man squad.

Agreed. So it needs to be brought in line to an average.

"So fix Tactical Marines."

That's much easier said than done. They've been bad for 5/7 editions at least.

Yup. And they will continue to be so until either the power creep is addressed or they are buffed in some way. I'd rather see the creep addressed personally.

They just released the fething Wulfen. There is only one way power creep is going: up.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Losing a turn of shooting is not free.

What's wrong with a 3+ rerollable cover save (2+ rerollable with any modifers)? On a T5 model?

Is that what you're asking?

We're talking Necron levels of stupidity. On bikes. Probably with grav guns.

Okay, let's break it down.

Base Ravenwing Bike Squadron has a 4+ rerollable Jink. Points-wise, they cost a little more than a standard SM Bike Squadron.

To get it to 3+, you either need to have the unit within 6" of a Dark Shroud, or join Sammael to the unit. The Dark Shroud costs 2 Terminators, and has almost no offensive capability at all. Sammael costs 5 Terminators, and isn't bad, but he's not super-killy. You could easily make a more killy bike Captain with Codex: Space Marines. Getting them down to a 2+ rerollable Jink requires both the Dark Shroud and Sammael. So, you've made a 6 Terminator investment in making one unit extremely hard to kill with shooting. They're not terribly hard to kill in close combat with any reasonably competent assault unit. You're just not likely to bog them down in an extended combat because they have Hit & Run, so tarpit tactics won't work.

Now, Ravenwing Knights have an inherent 3+ rerollable cover save, but you pay Terminator cost per model. Mind you, you get the value you ought to get from a Terminator but don't. It can be boosted to a 2+ rerollable Jink via proximity to the Dark Shroud, but adding Sammael to the unit does nothing for the Jink save. For the points, you'd be better off adding an Interrogator Chaplain with a bike and the Mace of Redemption.

The key to reducing the Ravenwing Jink is to pop the Dark Shroud. Doing that with shooting is not easy, because it's got a 2+ rerollable Jink all on its own, and with its minuscule firepower there's no reason not to Jink with it. However, it does have to stay close to the units it's supporting, which affords other avenues of attack. One of my regular opponents has hit upon the idea of ramming it. Jink does diddly against rams. Plus, like with most vehicles, it doesn't like being assaulted.

I also don't feel too terribly bad about the Ravenwing rerollable Jink because there are so many effects in the game that simply deny cover entirely, which also deny the Jink save.

Martel732 wrote:Moving scatbikes to fa does nothing. Make SL 20 pt upgrade like an assault cannon. Maybe 25. It's a better weapon.

Actually,, moving Scatbikes to FA does a lot. It puts them in direct competition with Warp Spiders for those slots.

Draco wrote:How about nerfing grav cannon with amp? It is too good if you compare it to other heavy weapons.

They grav cannon is also by far the most expensive heavy weapon upgrade of the lot. The other weapons cost in the 10-20pt range. The Grav cannon costs almost as much as a Terminator, and it drops off in usefulness against lower-save units.

I'm actually a little disappointed with this thread. When I read the title, I thought it meant how can we, as players, make our armies more fun to face within the rules, not how should we change our armies (or other people's, as it's currently shaping up to be).

Perhaps we're on different pages. I don't think upgrading from a Shuriken Cannon (HB equivelent) to a SL should be 20 points. Most CWE platforms price it as an upgrade from a SC. Much like upgrading to a Lascannon equivelent (brightlance) shouldn't be +20 points.

"Actually,, moving Scatbikes to FA does a lot. It puts them in direct competition with Warp Spiders for those slots. "

Unbound is a thing. It's worth it to just table every opponent.

6th ed Eldar Codex was fine except for the WS nonsense. Honestly, the "shieldgun" thing could be removed entirely, and the dex would be fine. It's a shame honestly. It was a cool codex, but the serpent spam was so good that it entirely overshadowed everything else except the wraithknight - which needs to cost more. Ranged D on that durable and mobile of a platform should cost more than an IK. Hands down.

Bharring wrote:
Perhaps we're on different pages. I don't think upgrading from a Shuriken Cannon (HB equivelent) to a SL should be 20 points. Most CWE platforms price it as an upgrade from a SC. Much like upgrading to a Lascannon equivelent (brightlance) shouldn't be +20 points.

It should be 20 pts over the shuriken catapult. If the base is a shuriken cannon, then the base price of the bike needs to be raised a LOT and the upgrade remain 10 pts. The final price of a scatterbike should be at least 30 pts.

I'm glad they made the WK a GMC. But they should have adjusted the cost appropriately.

There are some other minor changes I like (Spiders wounding on I). But mostly it's a worse book.

Bharring wrote:
I'm glad they made the WK a GMC. But they should have adjusted the cost appropriately.

There are some other minor changes I like (Spiders wounding on I). But mostly it's a worse book.

Plus they eliminated my mantle of the laughing god JUST as I finished converting up my super cool solitaire/autarch...

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:]Okay, let's break it down.

Base Ravenwing Bike Squadron has a 4+ rerollable Jink. Points-wise, they cost a little more than a standard SM Bike Squadron.

To get it to 3+, you either need to have the unit within 6" of a Dark Shroud, or join Sammael to the unit. The Dark Shroud costs 2 Terminators, and has almost no offensive capability at all. Sammael costs 5 Terminators, and isn't bad, but he's not super-killy. You could easily make a more killy bike Captain with Codex: Space Marines. Getting them down to a 2+ rerollable Jink requires both the Dark Shroud and Sammael. So, you've made a 6 Terminator investment in making one unit extremely hard to kill with shooting. They're not terribly hard to kill in close combat with any reasonably competent assault unit. You're just not likely to bog them down in an extended combat because they have Hit & Run, so tarpit tactics won't work.

Now, Ravenwing Knights have an inherent 3+ rerollable cover save, but you pay Terminator cost per model. Mind you, you get the value you ought to get from a Terminator but don't. It can be boosted to a 2+ rerollable Jink via proximity to the Dark Shroud, but adding Sammael to the unit does nothing for the Jink save. For the points, you'd be better off adding an Interrogator Chaplain with a bike and the Mace of Redemption.

The key to reducing the Ravenwing Jink is to pop the Dark Shroud. Doing that with shooting is not easy, because it's got a 2+ rerollable Jink all on its own, and with its minuscule firepower there's no reason not to Jink with it. However, it does have to stay close to the units it's supporting, which affords other avenues of attack. One of my regular opponents has hit upon the idea of ramming it. Jink does diddly against rams. Plus, like with most vehicles, it doesn't like being assaulted.

I also don't feel too terribly bad about the Ravenwing rerollable Jink because there are so many effects in the game that simply deny cover entirely, which also deny the Jink save.

What this amounts to is that you still have an entire army of things that are extremely difficult to hit and very difficult to assault (because nothing in the army moves less than 12 inches in the movement phase...plus overwatch shenanigans).

Sorry, but I don't want to play against an entire army full of things that refuse to die. I don't care if it cost you 10 points or 200 points. If it's virtually impossible to kill it, it's no fun playing against it. And if your whole army is like that, I'm not going to play against you. It's really that simple.

I'd sooner play against Tau than against Ravenwing.

You make the point about the ubiquity of ignore cover, but where is that in the Vanilla Space Marines codex? The most reliable ignore cover in my army is dragonfire sternguard ammunition, and that's wounding your bikes on 5s, and you still get 3+ armor saves.

I suppose I could try to hit your bikes with flamers. But again, that's wounding on 5s, and you still get 3+ armor saves.

No thanks.

Only way I'd play against Ravenwing is if the ravenwing player is running either a CAD or going unbound.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Perhaps we're on different pages. I don't think upgrading from a Shuriken Cannon (HB equivelent) to a SL should be 20 points. Most CWE platforms price it as an upgrade from a SC. Much like upgrading to a Lascannon equivelent (brightlance) shouldn't be +20 points.

It should be 20 pts over the shuriken catapult. If the base is a shuriken cannon, then the base price of the bike needs to be raised a LOT and the upgrade remain 10 pts. The final price of a scatterbike should be at least 30 pts.

The fair price of a scatter bike is somewhere around 30-35 points. The base windrider bike is roughly equivalent, perhaps slightly inferior, to a space marine bike (which is itself undercosted): the base windrider bike has worse durability and damage, but much better movement. Add 10 points for the scatter lasers (roughly equal to a heavy bolter).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Do you NEED free units to function?

After purchasing the captain and chaplain that I didn't want to get the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics? Yes. I need those free rhinos.

And in which case, don't take free Rhinos/Razorbacks. Sorted. You can take effectively either buy your Rhino, or you can buy three bodies and a Rhino, and get two men for free. I like fluff, and the idea of 5 man Tactical squads does not appeal in the slightest. Take them if you want, but it's not strictly a full company. Only fluff companies get free troops.

Let your appreciation for the fluff be what it may; the fact remains that, as a game mechanic, requiring 10 man squads is too much of a tax for a rhino, especially in comparison to other codices, other army builds, etc. and their general power levels.

Martel732 wrote:"Actually,, moving Scatbikes to FA does a lot. It puts them in direct competition with Warp Spiders for those slots. "

Unbound is a thing. It's worth it to just table every opponent.

Is there a major tournament that allows Unbound lists? Are there even that many people who play Unbound?

Traditio wrote:

What this amounts to is that you still have an entire army of things that are extremely difficult to hit and very difficult to assault (because nothing in the army moves less than 12 inches in the movement phase...plus overwatch shenanigans).

The other thing about Ravenwing is that most of their firepower is short-ranged. The longest-ranged stuff that can be carried on a bike is 24", and the plasma talons the Ravenwing Knights have are 18" Rapid Fire, so they want to be within 9". So, they have to get within reasonable charging range to shoot at your stuff, particularly if they want to shoot to full effect. Other than Ravenwing Knights, Bikes are weak in assault, being a little harder to wound, but having significantly less attacks-per-points than even Tactical Marines. Grim Resolve's improved Overwatch is a thing, but I've found it usually only inflicts 1 more casualty from Overwatch than would otherwise be the case. Sure, the rerollable Jink can be annoying, but there's ways around it. It's not the rerollable 2++ other armies can get by a long shot.

Traditio wrote:You make the point about the ubiquity of ignore cover, but where is that in the Vanilla Space Marines codex?

Whirlwinds. Vindicator squadron. Divination - if I remember right, it's not a discipline most SM Librarians can get, but Tigurius can get it, can't he? Plus, doesn't the Thunderfire Cannon have a fire mode that ignores cover saves? I've never used one myself, because Dark Angels don't get it for reasons.

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:The other thing about Ravenwing is that most of their firepower is short-ranged. The longest-ranged stuff that can be carried on a bike is 24", and the plasma talons the Ravenwing Knights have are 18" Rapid Fire, so they want to be within 9". So, they have to get within reasonable charging range to shoot at your stuff, particularly if they want to shoot to full effect. Other than Ravenwing Knights, Bikes are weak in assault, being a little harder to wound, but having significantly less attacks-per-points than even Tactical Marines. Grim Resolve's improved Overwatch is a thing, but I've found it usually only inflicts 1 more casualty from Overwatch than would otherwise be the case. Sure, the rerollable Jink can be annoying, but there's ways around it. It's not the rerollable 2++ other armies can get by a long shot.

This is standard apologetics procedure for people who defend their OP bull gak. "Yes, yes, it's totally awesome in these respects...but it's not good in these other respects! Sure, sure, the wraithknight is T8, has 6 wounds, and doesn't even cost 300 points...but it's not immune to psychic shriek, and poison can still technically hurt it on 6s! So a 295 wraithknight isn't that bad, right? It's not like I have an all powerful model. It's still kind-of, sort-of vulnerable."

"Yes, sure, the grav cannon has very good damage output...but it only has a 24 inch maximum range!"

There is absolutely nothing that you can reasonably tell me which will justify an army-wide 2+, 3+ or 4+ rerollable save. There's nothing fun about playing against it. It is an exercise in futility. No thanks.

Feth ravenwing. Feth decurion Necrons.

The easiest way to do this is simply to game with a small group of gamers who agree (gentleman's agreement) to not take crappy spam lists.

Another easy way is to create a campaign system or recruitment system (tables, slots etc.) to generate armies which aren't win-at-all-cost lists.

While some units may be crap according to their codex/stat-lines...they're normally crap "for the points" and thus aren't taken in tournament style "all comers" lists.

Any group of gamers can adjust 40K as they please to suit them. This version or earlier versions. Unfortunately the very attraction of 40K is often tournaments or the ease of pick-up games at local game-stores...something you can't really affect without changes from up on high. You can't show up "hey let's do lists but don't use the following units...". You'd be laughed out of the store at some places.

Absolutely nothing stopping players from having a simple conversation on what is cheese/spam/crap, and what isn't...agree to make more flavorful lists. Another way to encourage a change to army lists is to develop your own scenarios which benefit different lists and aren't always subject to tabling your opponent = winning.

 Traditio wrote:


This is standard apologetics procedure for people who defend their OP bull gak. "Yes, yes, it's totally awesome in these respects...but it's not good in these other respects! Sure, sure, the wraithknight is T8, has 6 wounds, and doesn't even cost 300 points...but it's not immune to psychic shriek, and poison can still technically hurt it on 6s! So a 295 wraithknight isn't that bad, right? It's not like I have an all powerful model. It's still kind-of, sort-of vulnerable."

Or, it could be someone who plays the list and is more intimately familiar with it letting you know where the weak points to exploit are. If one doesn't really know how the mechanics of the force work, then it'd be easy to get sucked into engaging the things the RSF player wants you to engage in the way he wants you to engage them. If you dump all your firepower at the Ravenwing Knights within 6" of a Dark Shroud, then yeah, you're not going to accomplish much. If you concentrate on the more vulnerable units and engage the RSF on your terms instead of theirs, you'll do much better.

Another point to exploit would be that the Ravenwing Strike Force is going to be weak against Flyers, because they basically can't take any, because (fun fact) the Strike As One rule means a RSF with Flyers would be forced to stay in reserve until turn 2, the first turn the flyers can come in, which means they auto-lose turn 1. So, take some Flyers and watch the RSF not be able to do much about them.


Oh, Land Speeders with twin heavy flamers would probably be helpful. Cheap, fast, and should force enough wounds to cause some armor save failures.

If someone is playing a Ravenwing Strike Force against you, then you can feel free to hit them with a Skyhammer+Librarian Conclave with Tigurius+Vindicator Squadron. That ought to fix their little red wagon.

Ravenwing don't compare to the Wraithknight in terms of sheer obnoxiousness. The Wraithknight has a couple things it's not less vulnerable to than most units in the game - grav being chief among them. Ravenwing is weak vs a whole phase of the game, and unlike the Tau are going to come out and get close, which means one has a reasonable chance of engaging them in that phase. I'm not defending them so much as trying to let you know how to play against them. If you don't want to give it a try, that's on you, not on the army.

Tau make da very, very sad pandas. BA and orks are fethed, but that's par for the course.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


This is standard apologetics procedure for people who defend their OP bull gak. "Yes, yes, it's totally awesome in these respects...but it's not good in these other respects! Sure, sure, the wraithknight is T8, has 6 wounds, and doesn't even cost 300 points...but it's not immune to psychic shriek, and poison can still technically hurt it on 6s! So a 295 wraithknight isn't that bad, right? It's not like I have an all powerful model. It's still kind-of, sort-of vulnerable."

Or, it could be someone who plays the list and is more intimately familiar with it letting you know where the weak points to exploit are. If one doesn't really know how the mechanics of the force work, then it'd be easy to get sucked into engaging the things the RSF player wants you to engage in the way he wants you to engage them. If you dump all your firepower at the Ravenwing Knights within 6" of a Dark Shroud, then yeah, you're not going to accomplish much. If you concentrate on the more vulnerable units and engage the RSF on your terms instead of theirs, you'll do much better.

Another point to exploit would be that the Ravenwing Strike Force is going to be weak against Flyers, because they basically can't take any, because (fun fact) the Strike As One rule means a RSF with Flyers would be forced to stay in reserve until turn 2, the first turn the flyers can come in, which means they auto-lose turn 1. So, take some Flyers and watch the RSF not be able to do much about them.


Oh, Land Speeders with twin heavy flamers would probably be helpful. Cheap, fast, and should force enough wounds to cause some armor save failures.

If someone is playing a Ravenwing Strike Force against you, then you can feel free to hit them with a Skyhammer+Librarian Conclave with Tigurius+Vindicator Squadron. That ought to fix their little red wagon.

Ravenwing don't compare to the Wraithknight in terms of sheer obnoxiousness. The Wraithknight has a couple things it's not less vulnerable to than most units in the game - grav being chief among them. Ravenwing is weak vs a whole phase of the game, and unlike the Tau are going to come out and get close, which means one has a reasonable chance of engaging them in that phase. I'm not defending them so much as trying to let you know how to play against them. If you don't want to give it a try, that's on you, not on the army.

IoW:

"If you want to compete with Ravenwing Strikeforce, then you must drastically change your list."

No. I have a fething good way of beating Ravenwing strikeforce without doing that: refuse to play against it in the first place.

I run a crimson fists battle company with missile launchers, plasma cannons and lascannons. I couple this with Pedro and 20 sternguard whom I promptly put in rhinos on turn 1.

If my missile launchers, plasma cannons, lascannons and sternguard ammunition can't hurt your dudes, I'm out.

There are plenty of people who don't play that malarky.

You're so adorable acting like ravenwing strike force is a big deal.

Martel732 wrote:
You're so adorable acting like ravenwing strike force is a big deal.

You play BA. Do you have roughly a 50/50 shot against them?

 Traditio wrote:


IoW:

"If you want to compete with Ravenwing Strikeforce, then you must drastically change your list."

No. I have a fething good way of beating Ravenwing strikeforce without doing that: refuse to play against it in the first place. There are plenty of people who don't play that malarky.

One sad fact of 40K is that it tends to be very paper-rock-scissorsy. If you're not willing to change your list to meet different challenges, you're at a handicap.

That said, what's your list? I might be able to point out things you can do that you haven't considered.

This is par for the course with Traditio. He refuses to change his list to counter what his opponent's bringing.