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 sebster wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Stupid in your mind, but not in the eyes of folks who understand our constitution.

Discussing issues entirely in terms of the constitution is perhaps the silliest thing of all.

"We wrote it on a piece of paper, so that's the end of that" is a completely dysfunctional approach to discussing politics and individual rights.

Perhaps reading what I wrote would help. I said 'not in the eyes of folks who understand our constitution.'

If you understand our constitution, you understand it has an amendment process, and that the whole Bill Of Rights amendments are historically pretty important. Understanding that will (or maybe should) explain why valuing guns is not silly.

In no way does 'understanding the constitution' equate the argument you seem to have replied to instead of the argument I made. I did not say anything close to "We wrote it on a piece of paper, so that's the end of that'.

So, in your opinion, it is necessary to allow concealed carry in campus? The very places where people gather to study, and have nothing to do with protecting your home by the way, and where you absolutely don't need to bring more means for violence inside?

And you don't understand some young people don't feel exactly safe while knowing one of their comrades next to them may be carrying a hidden weapon and use it whenever he wants, just because he snaps or something?

Because, let's be clear, some of the most tragic events made in American schools were made by students bringing concealed weapons inside and fire at will on their unaware comrades before usually dying.

And now, there is a law allowing them to do so? You really don't see where is the problem in that?

If you think the intent is helping "western heroes ready to kill the crazy ones with their holy guns", well to me, that just makes easier the job of criminals and would be murderers to do their job. Because they will shoot first and use surprise to their full advantage.

You really don't see where is the danger in that? To me, it's quite understandable these students and teachers would protest. Calling it "stupidity" is, IMHO, the true mark of irresponsibility.

 Sarouan wrote:
So, in your opinion, it is necessary to allow concealed carry in campus? The very places where people gather to study, and have nothing to do with protecting your home by the way, and where you absolutely don't need to bring more means for violence inside?

And you don't understand some young people don't feel exactly safe while knowing one of their comrades next to them may be carrying a hidden weapon and use it whenever he wants, just because he snaps or something?

Because, let's be clear, some of the most tragic events made in American schools were made by students bringing concealed weapons inside and fire at will on their unaware comrades before usually dying.

And now, there is a law allowing them to do so? You really don't see where is the problem in that?

If you think the intent is helping "western heroes ready to kill the crazy ones with their holy guns", well to me, that just makes easier the job of criminals and would be murderers to do their job. Because they will shoot first and use surprise to their full advantage.

You really don't see where is the danger in that? To me, it's quite understandable these students and teachers would protest. Calling it "stupidity" is, IMHO, the true mark of irresponsibility.

But do you honestly think making US campuses gun free zones is going to make them safer from guns?

Specific gun free zones in a country which is otherwise gun friendly doesn't work. It just means it's very easy to carry a gun in to the gun free zone if you have ill intent, but people following the law won't.

Gun free zones work in countries like Australia because it's hard to get guns out here in the first place, if you're a crazed maniac teenager you can't just go get your Dad's gun out of his sock drawer (or steal the key to his gun safe) and go to college and start shooting people because your Dad is unlikely to have a gun in the first place.

The only way a gun free zone could possibly make you safer is if you put up checkpoints to search people for guns before they enter the campus, which is, IMO, not a good solution - or if you disarmed the whole country so it was no longer easy to get guns in the first place.

Sounds suspiciously like the argument that criminals won't follow laws or rules so why have any laws or rules in the first place?

 skyth wrote:
Sounds suspiciously like the argument that criminals won't follow laws or rules so why have any laws or rules in the first place?

I prefer to think of it as, why create laws that needlessly endanger people?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

My apologies, I wouldn't want you to ignore a widely recognized concept because the first graphic I choose had a spelling mistake.

No need to apologize, I just thought it was funny as gak.

I'm also not familiar with that concept. Thank you. I shall post that at work and make friends!

 kronk wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

My apologies, I wouldn't want you to ignore a widely recognized concept because the first graphic I choose had a spelling mistake.

No need to apologize, I just thought it was funny as gak.

I'm also not familiar with that concept. Thank you. I shall post that at work and make friends!

It was kinda ironic, based on the content.

 djones520 wrote:

 skyth wrote:
Sounds suspiciously like the argument that criminals won't follow laws or rules so why have any laws or rules in the first place?

I prefer to think of it as, why create laws that needlessly endanger people?

You mean, of course, laws enabling people to bring weapons into a place.

 skyth wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 skyth wrote:
Sounds suspiciously like the argument that criminals won't follow laws or rules so why have any laws or rules in the first place?

I prefer to think of it as, why create laws that needlessly endanger people?

You mean, of course, laws enabling people to bring weapons into a place.

Laws allowing law abiding citizens to bring weapons into a place, not removing their right of self-defense.

Unless you're trying to prove that those who conceal carry are more likely to commit violent crime now. I think someone provided some pretty hard evidence counter to that idea earlier in the thread.

 Sarouan wrote:
So, in your opinion, it is necessary to allow concealed carry in campus? The very places where people gather to study, and have nothing to do with protecting your home by the way, and where you absolutely don't need to bring more means for violence inside?

And you don't understand some young people don't feel exactly safe while knowing one of their comrades next to them may be carrying a hidden weapon and use it whenever he wants, just because he snaps or something?

Because, let's be clear, some of the most tragic events made in American schools were made by students bringing concealed weapons inside and fire at will on their unaware comrades before usually dying.

And now, there is a law allowing them to do so? You really don't see where is the problem in that?

If you think the intent is helping "western heroes ready to kill the crazy ones with their holy guns", well to me, that just makes easier the job of criminals and would be murderers to do their job. Because they will shoot first and use surprise to their full advantage.

You really don't see where is the danger in that? To me, it's quite understandable these students and teachers would protest. Calling it "stupidity" is, IMHO, the true mark of irresponsibility.

I would agree with you if that was actually a valid fear, but it's not. The only people allowed to have a gun on them are the ones with permits. As I have all ready pointed out, those with permits are statistically the most law abiding people in the country. Would you fear for your life sitting in a room with an on-duty police officer? By your logic you should, as police are 6 times more likely to commit a serious crime than the concealed carry civilian you state should be feared.

Irrational fears are just that, irrational.

 skyth wrote:
Sounds suspiciously like the argument that criminals won't follow laws or rules so why have any laws or rules in the first place?

No, if that's what you took out of it then you missed my point.

Making a campus a gun free zone won't magically make guns go away, you don't create an invisible wall through which guns cannot pass.

Gun free zones don't work, you have to make the entire region gun free so people can't easily get guns in the first place (like many other countries), or make your gun free zone have checkpoints through which you actively search people before they're allowed on campus.

Simply creating a rule "mmk guys, you can have your guns at home, you can carry them down the street, you can buy them from the shops, but don't bring them past this invisible line" doesn't make people behind that line safer.

If you're afraid of being shot, fine, be afraid, but don't invent rules that aren't actually going to make you safer, that's stupid. Move to a country that doesn't allow guns ANYWHERE not just on campus and you'll be significantly less likely to be shot, or encourage your government to change the law so no one can carry guns.

Everyone has the right to self-defense.

Mitochondria wrote:
Everyone has the right to self-defense.

Yeah, but not everyone has the right to carry weaponry for self defence, that right is granted or revoked by society.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
Everyone has the right to self-defense.

Yeah, but not everyone has the right to carry weaponry for self defence, that right is granted or revoked by society.

Thats is a matter of opinion and the difference between subjects and citizens.

Sarouan- mass shootings happen in schools for a reason. The perp knows no one else legally has a gun on them and thus there is no way for people to defend themselves. Look at the stats, almost every mass shooting in the US is in a gun free zone. By allowing individuals to carry concealed, bad guys have no idea who has a gun and can defend themselves and take them out.

As for the safe space crap, that's a bunch of BS. College is for getting people ready for the real world. If they have an irrational fear of guns then they have some growing up to do before they can handle being on their own. That safe space is actually less safe because guns aren't allowed. While I don't carry a gun currently(cant find a way to comfortably carry one concealed) I do carry a knife and will not do business at places that do not allow guns. I consider them not only Anti-American, but unsafe places to go. I know they don't allow them, most don't have armed security, and any bad guys that do a minute of research know no on is legally armed.

The theater shooter a couple years back actually wrote in his journal that police found that he scoped out 7 different theaters and the one he picked was the only one of the seven that had a no weapons policy.

This whole protest thing in college itself is destroying American education. Foreign students(from Asia and the Middle-east) are kicking our asses. Engineering schools are majority foreign students because US kids cant cut it. Note that is directly from a director of admissions. US students are lazy, they don't put in the work needed, they expect things to be given to them. Even worse their parents come in to complain when their 22 year old kid cant pass a senior level class with grades high enough to go forward. They don't understand why a 2.0 average doesn't cut it in grad school or how their special snowflake who studies so hard cant cut it. In more recent cases tying in with this you have kids protesting and wanting less work so they can concentrate on protesting crap. I read somewhere that the students in one school organized and actually petitioned for auto-passes so they could concentrate on social issues. Waving around dildos while funny, is nothing more than a symptom of the rot that is killing the next generation's education.

 Frazzled wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
Everyone has the right to self-defense.

Yeah, but not everyone has the right to carry weaponry for self defence, that right is granted or revoked by society.

Thats is a matter of opinion and the difference between subjects and citizens.

The fact it's a matter of opinion proves my point. Millions of people get by day to day without the right to carry weapons, just because some societies think it's their right to carry weaponry doesn't make it a basic human right, it makes it a right those particular societies decided to grant. Those same communities can at a later date decide that the individual's ability to carry a weapon infringes on the safety of the community as a whole sufficiently that the right is revoked.

Thus it is not a "Everyone has the right..." it's a "Some societies grant the right...".

Based on what I've read, at the moment Americans seem to be about 50/50 on whether or not the right to carry weaponry should continue.

 Sarouan wrote:
So, in your opinion, it is necessary to allow concealed carry in campus? The very places where people gather to study, and have nothing to do with protecting your home by the way, and where you absolutely don't need to bring more means for violence inside?

Does your right to self defense end on a college campus?

 Sarouan wrote:
And you don't understand some young people don't feel exactly safe while knowing one of their comrades next to them may be carrying a hidden weapon and use it whenever he wants, just because he snaps or something?

The good old "The campus will run red with blood". Except on those campuses that have alreday allowed concealed carry this has not proven the case. Ever.

 Sarouan wrote:
Because, let's be clear, some of the most tragic events made in American schools were made by students bringing concealed weapons inside and fire at will on their unaware comrades before usually dying.

Not relevant to the concealed carry discussion. But nice effort.

 Sarouan wrote:
And now, there is a law allowing them to do so? You really don't see where is the problem in that?

There is a law allowing people to "fire at will on their unaware comrades"? Really? When was this enacted?

 Sarouan wrote:
If you think the intent is helping "western heroes ready to kill the crazy ones with their holy guns", well to me, that just makes easier the job of criminals and would be murderers to do their job. Because they will shoot first and use surprise to their full advantage.

Because criminals and would be murderers, as you pointed out above, didn't follow the law to begin with. So this levels the playing field for the law abiding. And guns are not "holy", they are not some sort of magical talisman. They are a tool.

 Sarouan wrote:
You really don't see where is the danger in that? To me, it's quite understandable these students and teachers would protest. Calling it "stupidity" is, IMHO, the true mark of irresponsibility.

Students and teachers protesting people exercising their rights is incredibly stupid.

Everyone carrying concealed at state universities in Texas have already been given permission by the state to carry concealed. The only thing the new law has done is made it so that state schools can't prohibit students from exercising the right granted them via the state issued permit. Private schools can still prohibit concealed carry just like private businesses and private residences.
The protests against allowing students to carry concealed seemed to be based on fear and a perception of concealed carry that isn't based on facts. Every student with a carry permit will have met the requirements to get one, those students will only be a tiny fraction of the overall student body and carry permit holders have been proven to be a very law abiding group of people so the odds of a student with a carry permit causing a problem or hurting other students are very small.

 kronk wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

My apologies, I wouldn't want you to ignore a widely recognized concept because the first graphic I choose had a spelling mistake.

No need to apologize, I just thought it was funny as gak.

I'm also not familiar with that concept. Thank you. I shall post that at work and make friends!

You're welcome. After I heard of the concept suddenly a lot of things became clearer, especially when talking with certain people

This whole protest thing in college itself is destroying American education. Foreign students(from Asia and the Middle-east) are kicking our asses. Engineering schools are majority foreign students because US kids cant cut it. Note that is directly from a director of admissions. US students are lazy, they don't put in the work needed, they expect things to be given to them. Even worse their parents come in to complain when their 22 year old kid cant pass a senior level class with grades high enough to go forward. They don't understand why a 2.0 average doesn't cut it in grad school or how their special snowflake who studies so hard cant cut it. In more recent cases tying in with this you have kids protesting and wanting less work so they can concentrate on protesting crap. I read somewhere that the students in one school organized and actually petitioned for auto-passes so they could concentrate on social issues. Waving around dildos while funny, is nothing more than a symptom of the rot that is killing the next generation's education.

I'd have to disagree. In undergrad at Rock and Pointy Stick Polytechnic there was literally a protest march every week almost precisely at 12.30. It was great fun. Whether or not you joined in depending almost completely on how many members of the protest were easy on the eyes.

The whole thing was just entertainment and something to do for fun. Very few people took it seriously.
(I'll note at Rock and Pointy Stick Community College there were no protests. People didn't have time for that nonsense).

Now this, well they wouldn't have done that though, because you look like stupid babies. Mom and Dad would not be proud.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
Everyone has the right to self-defense.

Yeah, but not everyone has the right to carry weaponry for self defence, that right is granted or revoked by society.

Thats is a matter of opinion and the difference between subjects and citizens.

The fact it's a matter of opinion proves my point. Millions of people get by day to day without the right to carry weapons, just because some societies think it's their right to carry weaponry doesn't make it a basic human right, it makes it a right those particular societies decided to grant. Those same communities can at a later date decide that the individual's ability to carry a weapon infringes on the safety of the community as a whole sufficiently that the right is revoked.

Thus it is not a "Everyone has the right..." it's a "Some societies grant the right...".

Based on what I've read, at the moment Americans seem to be about 50/50 on whether or not the right to carry weaponry should continue.

By matter of opinion I mean whether or not rights even exist is a matter of opinion. In the US certain minimum rights are codified (the founders mistakenly believed all the rest would be protected at the state level, boy where they wrong).

All rights are matters of opinion.

 Frazzled wrote:
By matter of opinion I mean whether or not rights even exist is a matter of opinion. In the US certain minimum rights are codified (the founders mistakenly believed all the rest would be protected at the state level, boy where they wrong).

All rights are matters of opinion.

It's a matter of opinion whether there SHOULD be natural inalienable rights, but the fact is there isn't unless society decides there should be and puts effort in to supporting them.

But the fact society has to decide should indicative that rights aren't universal, they only become universal once society decides they should be.

Its not society granting rights, its persons having sufficient power to take those rights.

But thats another thread. This thread is about ladies wandering around protesting a law with happy playtime devices.

Judging by the size of some of them, they are in for future of vast disappointment...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
Everyone has the right to self-defense.

Yeah, but not everyone has the right to carry weaponry for self defence, that right is granted or revoked by society.

Molon Labe

 Sarouan wrote:

Because, let's be clear, some of the most tragic events made in American schools were made by students bringing concealed weapons inside and fire at will on their unaware comrades before usually dying.

And now, there is a law allowing them to do so? You really don't see where is the problem in that?

If you think that concealed carry permits you to "fire at will on your unaware comrades before usually dying," you need to re-read the text of the law.

Murder is illegal. You already have a law against it. Why would an additional law stop anybody? Very silly, tbh.

 Frazzled wrote:
Its not society granting rights, its persons having sufficient power to take those rights.

If you have to have the power to take a right, then it's not a right.

A right is the moral or legal entitlement to do something. If society deems it is not moral or illegal, it's no longer a right.

But thats another thread.

Sure.

Mitochondria wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
Everyone has the right to self-defense.

Yeah, but not everyone has the right to carry weaponry for self defence, that right is granted or revoked by society.

Molon Labe

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Its not society granting rights, its persons having sufficient power to take those rights.

If you have to have the power to take a right, then it's not a right.

A right is the moral or legal entitlement to do something. If society deems it is not moral or illegal, it's no longer a right.

But thats another thread.

Sure.

Mitochondria wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Mitochondria wrote:
Everyone has the right to self-defense.

Yeah, but not everyone has the right to carry weaponry for self defence, that right is granted or revoked by society.

Molon Labe

Society permits nothing. Its people forcing their society to recognize their rights that is something.

Nvm.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Does your right to self defense end on a college campus?

No, but I think you also have the right to not feel threatened on a college campus. Knowing there are guns hiding around tend to give that feeling.

Also, you can defend yourself without using, carrying or showing guns. I can teach you, if you want. You just have to come in my country and leave your gun at home. It's not so scary, promise.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

The good old "The campus will run red with blood". Except on those campuses that have alreday allowed concealed carry this has not proven the case. Ever.

Yes, but I believe the head of the campus had the right to change that policy. Not anymore with this law, it removes their right to do something they think in the best interests of their students.

Like I say lower, it's all about control. If concealed weapons are forbidden, people bringing some can be in trouble if they are found with some on them. And if they are bad people...you can act swifter. Better than just letting people pass with no question and then get surprised when another tragic event happen again - even with "good guys having concealed guns" being inside and totally unable to do anything - because most of them are civilians, anyway.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
Because, let's be clear, some of the most tragic events made in American schools were made by students bringing concealed weapons inside and fire at will on their unaware comrades before usually dying.

Not relevant to the concealed carry discussion. But nice effort.

Sure, nice work from you dodging the true point again. It's so handy, indeed.

You can't say it's not relevant in that case. Because, let's be honest, allowing concealed carry in more places makes it much more difficult to control people before the act happening (and thus preventing it). I think you know that very well.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
And now, there is a law allowing them to do so? You really don't see where is the problem in that?

There is a law allowing people to "fire at will on their unaware comrades"? Really? When was this enacted?

This law just allows people to bring concealed guns inside a classroom. It thus makes criminals' job easier, because of the reason said just above.

Because a murderer will conceal his weapon anyway, so if he is checked before using it on his comrades, you can't say anything at all at him. After all, he didn't break the law by bringing one and hiding it, right? Of course, after his deed done...well, it will be too late anyway. You just count the bodies of the slain innocents.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Because criminals and would be murderers, as you pointed out above, didn't follow the law to begin with. So this levels the playing field for the law abiding. And guns are not "holy", they are not some sort of magical talisman. They are a tool.

A tool not needed on a campus. Keep them at home.

And yes, criminals don't follow the law, but they sure gladly take advantage of those who make their task easier. Concealed carry allowed anywhere? How can't you see how much of a gift it is for them? You seriously count about "good guys able to defend themselves"? On a campus, where most people are students, most of them not really prepared to a Crisis situation, let not speak about using their gun right? Because I don't remember people owning guns being forced to a full education course about that kind of things in America.

If you want to bring your citizens to be really prepared to do the police's - or even the army's - job, you don't just pass laws allowing guns everywhere. You teach them what exactly they must do. This law will not bring anything good by itself. It's just a useless tool as it is, only to bring a false sense of security for gun owners too scared to get out without having one on them at all times.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Students and teachers protesting people exercising their rights is incredibly stupid.

If they are protesting against people who have guns, yes, you can say that. Because they could be shot.

But I have another word for that.

Apparently, the only good right is the right to bring guns anywhere, no matter the situation or without restraint. Others rights like protesting against a law you don't feel right as a non gun owner? These aren't true "rights", are they?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:

Because, let's be clear, some of the most tragic events made in American schools were made by students bringing concealed weapons inside and fire at will on their unaware comrades before usually dying.

And now, there is a law allowing them to do so? You really don't see where is the problem in that?

If you think that concealed carry permits you to "fire at will on your unaware comrades before usually dying," you need to re-read the text of the law.

Murder is illegal. You already have a law against it. Why would an additional law stop anybody? Very silly, tbh.

You don't get my point. My point is this law is just making criminals' job easier, because what they will do first is, indeed, bring a concealed weapon at the place they intent to kill people. It's just a matter of fact that they don't really want to be stopped before doing the deed. The best way for that - and most simple as well - is not to catch attention and just hide the thing before it is needed. Also, surprise helps a lot to kill people before they get a chance to react.

On the other hand, keeping guns - concealed or not - out of the campus territory (taken there are control points, of course) won't make it easier. Because if they get checked and concealed weapons were found, there would be immediate suspicion. With this law? Well, it's just another student following the law, nothing to see citizen! Of course, when they start shooting a bit later, it will be too late.

I say that law is taking the problem in the wrong way. Bringing more guns inside will not make the place safer; it just increases a lot more the chances of a tragic event happening (be it by accident or intention, mind you).

That you keep saying it's not a big deal in itself just shows you don't think at all on the consequences of such an event, just because you want to keep your guns anywhere even if it isn't really necessary.

No, but I think you also have the right to not feel threatened on a college campus. Knowing there are guns hiding around tend to give that feeling.

Also, you can defend yourself without using, carrying or showing guns. I can teach you, if you want. You just have to come in my country and leave your gun at home. It's not so scary, promise.

I love youngins who think they are invulnerable.
There is an old Texas saying. "Never mess with old guys. They are too tired too fight and might just kill you instead."

 Sarouan wrote:


Because a murderer will conceal his weapon anyway, so if he is checked before using it on his comrades, you can't say anything at all at him. After all, he didn't break the law by bringing one and hiding it, right? Of course, after his deed done...well, it will be too late anyway. You just count the bodies of the slain innocents.




On the other hand, keeping guns - concealed or not - out of the campus territory (taken there are control points, of course) won't make it easier. Because if they get checked and concealed weapons were found, there would be immediate suspicion. With this law? Well, it's just another student following the law, nothing to see citizen! Of course, when they start shooting a bit later, it will be too late.

Pretty much every state in the US (except maybe Alaska) issued ID card, usually with the persons picture on it. Here is an example of a Texan permit:




So yeah, if you search someone they will ask. And with any LEO interaction, you hand your permit to them with your primary ID so they know you are carrying.

Please try harder to look up the laws you bash.