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Unless you ''cook'' the grenade and then it explodes before it reaches the ground.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Unless you ''cook'' the grenade and then it explodes before it reaches the ground.

But then what's to stop her noticing that you are doing so and back up or do something to otherwise shield herself (like putting you between her and the grenade or doing something to make it cook off in your hand)?

 Bobthehero wrote:
Unless you ''cook'' the grenade and then it explodes before it reaches the ground.

Which involves holding it quite noticeably in your hand for a number of seconds

Works against xenomorphs who have a sort of feral intelligence. Not so much against anything much smarter.

Clever bit of thinking on the part of the writers though I do like that

Well you're not going to stand there and wait to be cut down, and really after you remove the pin you can that with a single hand, so you have one hand free to defend yourself, and nothing forces you to drop the frag as soon as she gets there, either, you can keep it in your hand for a while and drop it at the worst moment for her.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Clever bit of thinking on the part of the writers though I do like that

I used it as a defense in Aliens Vs Predator for why I'd detonate grenades at my feet when the alien player got close (I was terrible back then and couldn't hit it). As far as I was concerned it was a canon marine tactic, therefore not cheese!

That said, I'm actually rather surprised marines don't have frag devices specifically for combating fast, horde like enemies. Strap them to the front of each pauldron or even the front of the shin and you'd have a fair advantage against half a dozen hormugaunts/stealers. Hell, a marine might even have fast enough reflexes to trigger such things in response to an incoming RPG type attack.

Against an opponent as supposedly fast as she is it's probably the only chance you'd have. Just hope the frag does more damage to her than you and if it kills you, well it's probably less painful than what she'd do anyway.

But then what's to stop her noticing that you are doing so and back up or do something to otherwise shield herself (like putting you between her and the grenade or doing something to make it cook off in your hand)?

Depends on the size of the grenade I suppose. Some lore has frags being coin sized and a marine can hold (and hurl) and handful at a time. I imagine a marine might well trigger them and throw a punch, only to open his hand as it whizzed past her head. Of course that would rely on knowing you need to use such a tactic, something lacking in a 1v1 usually.

In all probability though, anyone entering the battlefields of the 41s millennium unarmoured is going to cop a piece of shrapnel or stray shot sooner or later. As they say in Fight Club “On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.”

Just hold a grenade so that Lilith can see it. She won't come at you cause than you'd detonate it and she'd be hurt. So, Lilith looks at you holding a grenade. You look at Lilith looking at you holding a grenade. Can have a nice chat in the meanwhile. Just don't forget the nade. She can be a real bitch if you do forget.

If we're (dangerously) going down a common sense route with this duel, I'd think while you were sitting there having your nice chat she'd just throw one of her knives at you.

However, if we are looking at common sense then any bloke with a sawnoff and some buckshot would mince her...

Engrenages wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked.

But she may be fast and keen enough to notice you dropping your grenade and then backing up until the explosion is over.

The irony!

Ahriman with his psychic shenanigans could probably take her out easily. Or some idiot recruit armed with an explosive weapon if he gets lucky. Lelith isn't a demigod of war. She is just a really talented gladiator who relies on speed and not much else to defeat her opponents.

Wasn't falling on a grenade in an act of self-sacrifice how the Night Lords managed to take down Jain Zar?

Just pointing out that there is some precedent.

She sees that grenade she snatches it off of you, puts it in your mouth and back flips away as it explodes your head.

The crowd roar with laughter as you are the nth arena rat to attempt such an obvious ploy!

 Kojiro wrote:
I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked. But this whole thing does remind me of the (very) old original Aliens tabletop game as a solution. In it the marines have come up with a less than ideal strategy for when xenomorphs are swarming them- they drop frag grenades at their own feet. They know full well that their armour will protect them from the worst of it (though it's hardly safe) but the xenomorphs have zero protection. It's a gamble to be sure, but one that is worth taking when the enemy is so much faster than you.

Lilith has no armour to speak of. For most people such a tactic would probably be your best bet against her. She may be fast but she's not dodging shrapnel at melee range fast. Sure, you might kill/maim yourself but if the alternative is fighting her in hand to hand you may well have better odds with the grenade- especially if you're armoured like a marine.

Overwanked is a super understatement based off some of the posts in this thread.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked. But this whole thing does remind me of the (very) old original Aliens tabletop game as a solution. In it the marines have come up with a less than ideal strategy for when xenomorphs are swarming them- they drop frag grenades at their own feet. They know full well that their armour will protect them from the worst of it (though it's hardly safe) but the xenomorphs have zero protection. It's a gamble to be sure, but one that is worth taking when the enemy is so much faster than you.

Lilith has no armour to speak of. For most people such a tactic would probably be your best bet against her. She may be fast but she's not dodging shrapnel at melee range fast. Sure, you might kill/maim yourself but if the alternative is fighting her in hand to hand you may well have better odds with the grenade- especially if you're armoured like a marine.

Overwanked is a super understatement based off some of the posts in this thread.

Yeah. God forbid a non-Imperium faction has a character that is actually good at something!
As for trying a grenade, you'd be dead before you'd have the pin out. Lilith survived tens of thousands of years fighting and killing the galaxy's most dangerous combatants without ever getting wounded. She is not going to be taken out by something as simple as a grenade. Apart from the likes of Drazhar, Phoenix Lords, Primarchs and Greater Daemons, there is very little in 40k fluff that would have a chance of beating her.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Overwanked is a super understatement based off some of the posts in this thread.

Yeah. God forbid a non-Imperium faction has a character that is actually good at something!
As for trying a grenade, you'd be dead before you'd have the pin out. Lilith survived tens of thousands of years fighting and killing the galaxy's most dangerous combatants without ever getting wounded. She is not going to be taken out by something as simple as a grenade. Apart from the likes of Drazhar, Phoenix Lords, Primarchs and Greater Daemons, there is very little in 40k fluff that would have a chance of beating her.

Preach at least she's not holding a Necron Pylon over her head and shooting people with it

However, for your average Guardsman, stuffing a 'nade up your T-Shirt and hoping she doesn't notice until it's too late is probably one of the more likely tactics to be successful

Filling her with Las bolt from range should be enough

nareik wrote:
She sees that grenade she snatches it off of you, puts it in your mouth and back flips away as it explodes your head.

The crowd roar with laughter as you are the nth arena rat to attempt such an obvious ploy!

Grenades are not working this way. You can't "snatch" it back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
If we're (dangerously) going down a common sense route with this duel, I'd think while you were sitting there having your nice chat she'd just throw one of her knives at you.

However, if we are looking at common sense then any bloke with a sawnoff and some buckshot would mince her...

Knives are not bullets, you can't throw them too effectively at long range. Besides, she won't be able to throw it fast enough cause her knives are massive and impractical. If you're even close to i3 you'd have decent chances of avoiding them.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Filling her with Las bolt from range should be enough

Yeah. That is a tactic that has proven to be sooo successful against Dark Eldar. :rolls eyes:

Just how good of a duellist would she be after she transformed into a squig for no reason ?

 koooaei wrote:

nareik wrote:
She sees that grenade she snatches it off of you, puts it in your mouth and back flips away as it explodes your head.

The crowd roar with laughter as you are the nth arena rat to attempt such an obvious ploy!

Grenades are not working this way. You can't "snatch" it back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
If we're (dangerously) going down a common sense route with this duel, I'd think while you were sitting there having your nice chat she'd just throw one of her knives at you.

However, if we are looking at common sense then any bloke with a sawnoff and some buckshot would mince her...

Knives are not bullets, you can't throw them too effectively at long range. Besides, she won't be able to throw it fast enough cause her knives are massive and impractical. If you're even close to i3 you'd have decent chances of avoiding them.

I think you are letting realism get in the way of 40k's Hollywood physics .

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked. But this whole thing does remind me of the (very) old original Aliens tabletop game as a solution. In it the marines have come up with a less than ideal strategy for when xenomorphs are swarming them- they drop frag grenades at their own feet. They know full well that their armour will protect them from the worst of it (though it's hardly safe) but the xenomorphs have zero protection. It's a gamble to be sure, but one that is worth taking when the enemy is so much faster than you.

Lilith has no armour to speak of. For most people such a tactic would probably be your best bet against her. She may be fast but she's not dodging shrapnel at melee range fast. Sure, you might kill/maim yourself but if the alternative is fighting her in hand to hand you may well have better odds with the grenade- especially if you're armoured like a marine.

Overwanked is a super understatement based off some of the posts in this thread.

Yeah. God forbid a non-Imperium faction has a character that is actually good at something!
As for trying a grenade, you'd be dead before you'd have the pin out. Lilith survived tens of thousands of years fighting and killing the galaxy's most dangerous combatants without ever getting wounded. She is not going to be taken out by something as simple as a grenade. Apart from the likes of Drazhar, Phoenix Lords, Primarchs and Greater Daemons, there is very little in 40k fluff that would have a chance of beating her.

Ah yeah and that's why she's always been stellar on the tabletop too.

Nah don't use that argument. Everyone loves characters like Fabius and Farsight and Trazyn and Maugan, but NONE of that is on the level I've seen demonstrated in this thread.

That's because none of those characters are billed as being millennia-old pitfighters

Being a duelist is sort of her thing.

In her (our) defence slightly, name another character that has survived since before the Horus Heresy, fighting every day, and only been wounded once.

I suppose you could say 'name another character who's picked up a pylon and used it to shoot Necrons', but still. It's impressive

Look, Dark Eldar don't have much these days (not even a competitive codex!). Let us have this

I think this thread isn't going anywhere because of the nature of 40k fluff, and because you can always point out a 'Nuh-uh!' answer to any plausible idea. Primarchs are *Impossibly* strong. Ahriman is *Unbeatably* good at Psychic Powers. Lilith is *Unhittably* fast. If you go by any given character's fluff, that character is always going to win.

Logically speaking, any attack which can't be dodged (The above-mentioned Grenade, any other kind of explosive, mental attacks,) should kill her pretty easily. Of course, logically, nobody should be able to survive 10,000 years of dueling. (Or 10,000 years of anything, for that matter.)

Yeah agreed. TBH, I think from a fluff perspective Nerak has it down as methodically as possible.

From a crunch perspective (which is my preference) koooaei has it down as methodically as possible.

Anything other than that is more conjecture than evidence-based (as evidence-based as you can get when you're debating a fictional character in a fictional universe of course...).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ah yeah and that's why she's always been stellar on the tabletop too.

Nah don't use that argument. Everyone loves characters like Fabius and Farsight and Trazyn and Maugan, but NONE of that is on the level I've seen demonstrated in this thread.

The thing about Lelith, is that she has the thing that she is good at and that's it. She is an amazing fighter and that's it, that's her job and she does it well.

A lot of other characters, on the other hand, have to be amazing at loads of things. Space Marines are often super strong AND tactical geniuses AND are super tough AND ultra psykers AND etc.

I find a character who is the best at what she does because that is all that she does more believable than characters who are the best at whatever they need to be the best at in order to advance a badly thought out plot.

Given time and free reign to plan it himself Lukas Strifeson could pull it off.
I'm not saying it would be a fair fight by any stretch of the imagination but Lukas would challenge and duel her and she would die.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ah yeah and that's why she's always been stellar on the tabletop too.

Nah don't use that argument. Everyone loves characters like Fabius and Farsight and Trazyn and Maugan, but NONE of that is on the level I've seen demonstrated in this thread.

The thing about Lelith, is that she has the thing that she is good at and that's it. She is an amazing fighter and that's it, that's her job and she does it well.

A lot of other characters, on the other hand, have to be amazing at loads of things. Space Marines are often super strong AND tactical geniuses AND are super tough AND ultra psykers AND etc.

I find a character who is the best at what she does because that is all that she does more believable than characters who are the best at whatever they need to be the best at in order to advance a badly thought out plot.

Nobody cares if you like her more because you think she's more believable. That's not part of the discussion.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nobody cares if you like her more because you think she's more believable. That's not part of the discussion.

Tad on the aggressive side...

It is part of the discussion depending on what the discussion actually is. A fair few people have tried to inject a little realism into the discussion, in which case Lelith believing she's more believable is certainly pertinent. It's opinion, but still relevant to the conversation.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
That's because none of those characters are billed as being millennia-old pitfighters

Being a duelist is sort of her thing.

In her (our) defence slightly, name another character that has survived since before the Horus Heresy, fighting every day, and only been wounded once.

I suppose you could say 'name another character who's picked up a pylon and used it to shoot Necrons', but still. It's impressive

Look, Dark Eldar don't have much these days (not even a competitive codex!). Let us have this

That's because all she does is duel in a controlled environment. Like someone else previously stated, war and the arena are two different things. The reason why "someone else hasn't been wounded in a millenia" is because they're fighting real battles on a real battlefield where unexpected things happen. To my knowledge there's not a single other character in fluff that just derps around in arenas all day. If all constantine valdor did was sit around in a fightclub for a couple centuries he'd probably be unscathed too.

As far as characters that would kill her go, any primarch or psychically gifted individual. No, she's not gonna "cut you a million times till you die", Angron got stepped on by a Titan and buried under a mountain and just walked it off. Not to mention marine physiology is ideally suited for "small cuts", what with auto clotting blood and near limitless stamina. To kill a primarch you need one hammerblow, not a bunch of tiny ones.

Pyskers would use precognition which completely strips lelith of her one and only advantage, her speed/reflexes. Doesn't matter how fast you are if I can predict your every move. That, or just crush her with telekinesis.

Yeah and that one marine she killed fought without his armor so... yeah she kind of fought a handicapped opponent. That and it wasn't stated he was the "best swordsman" of the marines. He was a champion but never such a statement was made.

ted234521 wrote:

That's because all she does is duel in a controlled environment. Like someone else previously stated, war and the arena are two different things. The reason why "someone else hasn't been wounded in a millenia" is because they're fighting real battles on a real battlefield where unexpected things happen. To my knowledge there's not a single other character in fluff that just derps around in arenas all day. If all constantine valdor did was sit around in a fightclub for a couple centuries he'd probably be unscathed too.

Probably true, except the fact that the question is about a 1-on-1 duel which is exactly what Lelith has been doing for 10k years.

"If all constantine valdor did was sit around in the mother of all fightclubs". Fixed that

ted234521 wrote:

As far as characters that would kill her go, any primarch or psychically gifted individual. No, she's not gonna "cut you a million times till you die", Angron got stepped on by a Titan and buried under a mountain and just walked it off. Not to mention marine physiology is ideally suited for "small cuts", what with auto clotting blood and near limitless stamina. To kill a primarch you need one hammerblow, not a bunch of tiny ones.

Pyskers would use precognition which completely strips lelith of her one and only advantage, her speed/reflexes. Doesn't matter how fast you are if I can predict your every move. That, or just crush her with telekinesis.

Agreed. We've established that she'd probably get rofl-stomped by Primarchs and most powerful psykers. 100%

Saying that, I don't see precognition as a hard counter. You can see something coming, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can stop it happening. If that's the case, I could make the argument that Eldrad Ulthran is the greatest duelist in the universe because he's the greatest seer there has ever been and he'd predict all their moves. As a self-confessed eldar fan I'd love that, but it probably doesn't work like that

Psychic doombolts would probably mince her though. I'd doubt they'd allow psychic powers flying around the arena in Commorragh given how risky it would be, so she probably doesn't face them that often. No real defence against them. Especially the ones that can't be dodged (you can side-step a bolt of energy, can't side-step someone looking at you and melting your brain with their mind).

I'd also agree that marine physiology would make it difficult to kill them, but she's done it before in the fluff (to a great marine duelist) so it's definitely possible.

Edit: it's just struck me that I might have misread your 'war vs arena' argument. It's more that it's not an apples-to-apples comparison of characters, and you're right.

Lord Kragan wrote:
Yeah and that one marine she killed fought without his armor so... yeah she kind of fought a handicapped opponent. That and it wasn't stated he was the "best swordsman" of the marines. He was a champion but never such a statement was made.

Interesting. Do you have the quote? Could probably change things somewhat.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

ted234521 wrote:

That's because all she does is duel in a controlled environment. Like someone else previously stated, war and the arena are two different things. The reason why "someone else hasn't been wounded in a millenia" is because they're fighting real battles on a real battlefield where unexpected things happen. To my knowledge there's not a single other character in fluff that just derps around in arenas all day. If all constantine valdor did was sit around in a fightclub for a couple centuries he'd probably be unscathed too.

Probably true, except the fact that the question is about a 1-on-1 duel which is exactly what Lelith has been doing for 10k years.

"If all constantine valdor did was sit around in the mother of all fightclubs". Fixed that

ted234521 wrote:

As far as characters that would kill her go, any primarch or psychically gifted individual. No, she's not gonna "cut you a million times till you die", Angron got stepped on by a Titan and buried under a mountain and just walked it off. Not to mention marine physiology is ideally suited for "small cuts", what with auto clotting blood and near limitless stamina. To kill a primarch you need one hammerblow, not a bunch of tiny ones.

Pyskers would use precognition which completely strips lelith of her one and only advantage, her speed/reflexes. Doesn't matter how fast you are if I can predict your every move. That, or just crush her with telekinesis.

Agreed. We've established that she'd probably get rofl-stomped by Primarchs and most powerful psykers. 100%

Saying that, I don't see precognition as a hard counter. You can see something coming, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can stop it happening. If that's the case, I could make the argument that Eldrad Ulthran is the greatest duelist in the universe because he's the greatest seer there has ever been and he'd predict all their moves. As a self-confessed eldar fan I'd love that, but it probably doesn't work like that

Psychic doombolts would probably mince her though. I'd doubt they'd allow psychic powers flying around the arena in Commorragh given how risky it would be, so she probably doesn't face them that often. No real defence against them. Especially the ones that can't be dodged (you can side-step a bolt of energy, can't side-step someone looking at you and melting your brain with their mind).

I'd also agree that marine physiology would make it difficult to kill them, but she's done it before in the fluff (to a great marine duelist) so it's definitely possible.

Yes, a great marine duelist. Primarchs are orders of magnitude more powerful than even a marine chapter master, and far more well engineered. There's a reason why the Emperor opted to mass produce marines and not primarchs; he couldn't. Every primarch represented a unique and irrecoverable investment. You don't hear about stock standard power armor dudes taking on entire armies at the eternity gate, beating down the favored bloodthirster of khorne or killing the emperor himself.

Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.