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2016/11/22 16:49:04
Subject: Re:Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
Nerak wrote: After reading through this thread I have some idea of the problems with it. Hence I'll make some rules for the fight. Both combatants are armed with chosen wargear. No psykers or blanks allowed. No gods. No deamons. Only presently (40k) alive character. I'll divide this into factions.
Note: This list is not people who *would* win but rather the ones who standd a chance at wounding her. That's how OP she is in the fluff.
Reasoning: We know lelith has been around for thousands of years fighting nonstop. We know she beat the unnamed no.1 Space marine duelist. All names on this list must thus be superior to the best astartes in the galaxy at any given time. Currently I'd say the greatest astartes fighter is Dante, currently the oldest Space marine at 2000years. Those that surpass him are the ones with 10k+ years of war experience. So that shuts out anyone that wasn't around pre heresy.
Weapons: originally I went with "naked with a knife" approach but realised that only changed two things. Abaddon and the phoenix lords. Hence I changed the wargear to anything goes.
Chaos: Lucius, Kharn, Abaddon.
Lucius was the best duelist of his time. All three above has survived as leaders in the warp, most likely fighting deamons nonstop. They are litteraly unnatural in str, speed, skill and exp. I'd say Lucius has the best chance but Kharn probably has the individually highest kill-count in the universe.
Marines: none
No one without psychic powers.
Imperium as a whole: Custodes Captain
The only guy I can think of. We don't know how strong the Custodes are currently but we know they've been fighting deamons on terra for 10k+years. The Captain is confirmed to have duelled and beaten primarchs (if he's still alive). Probably the best fighter in the Imperium.
Eldar: Harlequin King, Solitaire, All of the phoenix lords.
All of theese have very difficult power levels to decide. Maugan Ra is said to have single handedly beaten a Tyranid hive fleet. Karandras is said to have duelled with Vect for 7days. What we do know is that they all have combat experience since before the fall of the Eldar and are probably the most skilled 1v1 fighters in the galaxy. Oh and the Solitaire should be able to match Leliths speed.
Dark Eldar: Vect
Not sure. Could he beat her through some sneaky means?
Necrons: none
Tyranids: none
Orks: Ghazkuul
Special case. He should have died several times by now and is probably the single toughest being in the galaxy. I'd say he's the weakest of the above mentioned though, but I suppose Gork (or possibly Mork) would give him an unforseen edge. Could he beat Dante 1v1? Probably. Could he beat Lelith? Possibly.
Now that's how you do fluff comparisons
I'd say Vect would probably not be on the list. His thing is political machinations rather than raw combat skill (although he'd have to at least have some to claw his way to the top).
I'd also say that Maugan Ra might not be on the list either (and I'm saying that as a massive fan of Maugan Ra). His thing's more crafting esoteric WMDs rather than CC skill, and there's no mention of him beating the hive fleet through CC prowess. Seems more believable to me that he did it through weight of fire (some old pre-Fall defence grid perhaps?).
I would add Drahzar though, provided he's actually Arhra.
I'd say Vect would probably not be on the list. His thing is political machinations rather than raw combat skill (although he'd have to at least have some to claw his way to the top).
I'd also say that Maugan Ra might not be on the list either (and I'm saying that as a massive fan of Maugan Ra). His thing's more crafting esoteric WMDs rather than CC skill, and there's no mention of him beating the hive fleet through CC prowess. Seems more believable to me that he did it through weight of fire (some old pre-Fall defence grid perhaps?).
I would add Drahzar though, provided he's actually Arhra.
Thanks man.
I made quite the mistake, somehow I'd come to think that Vect was Arhra. Which is possible but Drahzar is the far more likely candidate. I've decided to keep Maugan Ra, just for the experience factor and because we don't really know what the phoenix lords are cappable off, though I agree that with all the non close combat specialist ones Lelith would probably win. Updated the list after your input:
Chaos: Lucius, Kharn, Abaddon.
Marines: none
Imperium as a whole: Custodes Captain
Eldar: Harlequin King, Solitaire, all of the phoenix lords.
Dark Eldar: Drahzar
Necrons: none
Tyranids: none
Tau: none
Orks: Ghazkuul
For reasoning, restrictions and wargear check the original post.
EDIT: I forgot the Tau
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/22 17:36:44
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
2016/11/22 17:50:34
Subject: Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
Well, checking the crunch, an Overlord with a Warscythe, Res Orb, and Phase Shifter will take...
How many attacks base is she? 4? +4 for WS 9 vs. WS 5? So 8 (I'm assuming neither got the charge off) hitting on 3s, for 16/3 hits, wounding on 6s, for 16/18 (8/9) wounds, with a 4+ Invuln (4/9 wounds) and a 5+ Reanimate (8/27 wounds) she'll take slightly over 3 turns to do a wound to him.
Meanwhile, he's got 3 attacks, hitting on 4s (3/2) wounding on 2s (15/12) with a 3+ Invuln (15/36, or 5/12) so he'll take slightly under 3 turns to do a wound to her.
And insta-gibs her.
How many points is Lelith? Because a 130 point Overlord crumps her good.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2016/11/22 17:59:23
Subject: Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
I'll nominate Vargard Obyron for the Necrons. After she's done her initiative he should still be standing and with his 9 to 10 atks with a warscyth he ought to finish her.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/22 18:01:11
2016/11/22 17:59:35
Subject: Re:Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
Crunch-wise, Aun'shi sitting in Patient Blade mode and firing off 6+ FNP every turn might be able to do it.
Spoiler:
Flicking through the Dark Eldar 7th edition book, they got rid of her rule which gave her extra attacks for having a higher WS? That sucks. Oh but she gets +1 WS from her warlord trait, bringing her up to WS10
So Lelith strikes first, 5 attacks which hit on 3s (with re-rolls, this is obviously a challenge) giving 4.44 hits, then wound on 4s (again, with rerolls) giving 3.33 wounds. Aun'shi has a 4++ re-rollable, resulting in 0.833 unsaved wounds and after the 6+++ FNP we're left with 0.69 wounds.
Aun'shi responds, 4 attacks hitting on 4s so 2 hits, 2 hits wounding on 2s so 1.66 wounds, then a 3++ leaving 0.55 unsaved wounds.
So Lelith will win thanks to her higher Initiative but it's pretty close otherwise. Not bad for an old blue man in a loin cloth, go Aun'shi!
If it was old 4th Ed Aun'shi though... He was such a fun character to troll people with by getting him into combat with CC characters and then sacrificing his attacks to reduce them to a single attack
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/11/22 18:23:54
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2016/11/22 18:05:32
Subject: Re:Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
JNAProductions wrote: Well, checking the crunch, an Overlord with a Warscythe, Res Orb, and Phase Shifter will take...
How many attacks base is she? 4? +4 for WS 9 vs. WS 5? So 8 (I'm assuming neither got the charge off) hitting on 3s, for 16/3 hits, wounding on 6s, for 16/18 (8/9) wounds, with a 4+ Invuln (4/9 wounds) and a 5+ Reanimate (8/27 wounds) she'll take slightly over 3 turns to do a wound to him.
Meanwhile, he's got 3 attacks, hitting on 4s (3/2) wounding on 2s (15/12) with a 3+ Invuln (15/36, or 5/12) so he'll take slightly under 3 turns to do a wound to her.
And insta-gibs her.
How many points is Lelith? Because a 130 point Overlord crumps her good.
yes she has terrible rules. Like most DE, the rules are not anywhere near the fluff.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
2016/11/22 18:08:49
Subject: Re:Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
I made quite the mistake, somehow I'd come to think that Vect was Arhra. Which is possible but Drahzar is the far more likely candidate. I've decided to keep Maugan Ra, just for the experience factor and because we don't really know what the phoenix lords are cappable off, though I agree that with all the non close combat specialist ones Lelith would probably win. Updated the list after your input:
Chaos: Lucius, Kharn, Abaddon.
Marines: none
Imperium as a whole: Custodes Captain
Eldar: Harlequin King, Solitaire, all of the phoenix lords.
Dark Eldar: Drahzar
Necrons: none
Tyranids: none
Tau: none
Orks: Ghazkuul
For reasoning, restrictions and wargear check the original post.
EDIT: I forgot the Tau
Ah that makes sense I had noticed you'd neglected the Tau, but I thought that that was on purpose
So we've got the case that Lelith in the fluff if pretty damn strong, but in the crunch can be beaten by quite a lot of things...
If we're going by the fluff, I don't think Cypher could take her either. He hasn't got the experience (given that the Cypher of 40k being around since the Heresy, he was flung out through time and space).
She's super fast and skilled, but I think the problem for her would ultimately be staying power. Greater Daemons, Avatars, Daemon Princes and other hero models (Phoenix Lords, Chapter Masters) can take some wounds and keep going. Whereas if those heavy hitters land a single blow, she's in trouble.
Insectum7 wrote: She's super fast and skilled, but I think the problem for her would ultimately be staying power. Greater Daemons, Avatars, Daemon Princes and other hero models (Phoenix Lords, Chapter Masters) can take some wounds and keep going. Whereas if those heavy hitters land a single blow, she's in trouble.
On the other hand, it could be like Bronn vs Ser Vardis or Oberyn vs The Mountain (but without the final mistake)
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2016/11/22 18:39:08
Subject: Re:Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
Nerak wrote: Karandras is said to have duelled with Vect for 7days.
Think you mean Ahra, here.
A duel involving Vect would last about as long as it would take for him to activate his pre-prepared scheme to blow up both the enemy and the several hundred kilometres surrounding the enemy with the biggest implement of death he can find.
2016/11/22 18:40:55
Subject: Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
Insectum7 wrote: She's super fast and skilled, but I think the problem for her would ultimately be staying power. Greater Daemons, Avatars, Daemon Princes and other hero models (Phoenix Lords, Chapter Masters) can take some wounds and keep going. Whereas if those heavy hitters land a single blow, she's in trouble.
We'll Yeah, she's a glass cannon, like all DE. If they don't win fast they get stomped
2016/11/22 19:10:55
Subject: Re:Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
Nerak wrote: Karandras is said to have duelled with Vect for 7days.
Think you mean Ahra, here.
A duel involving Vect would last about as long as it would take for him to activate his pre-prepared scheme to blow up both the enemy and the several hundred kilometres surrounding the enemy with the biggest implement of death he can find.
*Ahra, mb.
Seems it was 17days, not 7.
There's some weird stuff here, concerning this duel. I've decided to start a new thread about it. Though my phone's been messy so it'll have to wait just a little.
EDIT: edited this to Ahra from Drahzar for clarity
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/22 19:42:55
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
2016/11/22 19:39:55
Subject: Re:Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
Nerak wrote: Karandras is said to have duelled with Vect for 7days.
Think you mean Ahra, here.
A duel involving Vect would last about as long as it would take for him to activate his pre-prepared scheme to blow up both the enemy and the several hundred kilometres surrounding the enemy with the biggest implement of death he can find.
*Drahzar, mb.
Seems it was 17days, not 7.
There's some weird stuff here, concerning this duel. I've decided to start a new thread about it.
That's also assuming the Myths about Drazhar are true and he is in fact Ahra, something that haven't been fully explained yet in the codex besides ingame rumors (as far we know it can be Drastanta the Phoenix Lord of shinning spears trying to attone itself somehow)
2016/11/22 19:49:16
Subject: Re:Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
Yeah.... I'm starting to think Drahzar is in fact not Ahra and furthermore that someone screwed up the date here.
Apparently the duel was the last time anyone saw Ahra. However it's set in 928.M41.
The story in 3ed was just that Karandras and Arha dueled for 17days and then Arha was never heard from or seen again.
The weird thing is Ahra dissapeared BEFORE the first Incubi shrine was formed in commoragath. Also Karandras changed the striking scorpion shrine before he taught it to the craftworlds. Karandras did not actually become the phoenix lord untill after this duel.
So if Drahzar is Ahra and the original incubi either he revealed his true self for this duel, Karandras became a phoenix lord some 70years ago or someone really messed up the date.
EDIT: ment to start a new thread about this but I can't on my phone for some reason. Bug?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/22 19:59:02
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
2016/11/22 19:52:53
Subject: Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
Insectum7 wrote: She's super fast and skilled, but I think the problem for her would ultimately be staying power. Greater Daemons, Avatars, Daemon Princes and other hero models (Phoenix Lords, Chapter Masters) can take some wounds and keep going. Whereas if those heavy hitters land a single blow, she's in trouble.
We'll Yeah, she's a glass cannon, like all DE. If they don't win fast they get stomped
In the fluff she is the opposite. She just dances around never getting hit.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
2016/11/22 19:58:22
Subject: Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
Insectum7 wrote: She's super fast and skilled, but I think the problem for her would ultimately be staying power. Greater Daemons, Avatars, Daemon Princes and other hero models (Phoenix Lords, Chapter Masters) can take some wounds and keep going. Whereas if those heavy hitters land a single blow, she's in trouble.
On the other hand, it could be like Bronn vs Ser Vardis or Oberyn vs The Mountain (but without the final mistake)
I had to look that reference up .
Yeah, it could obviously go either way. If she can manage to not be hit, great. But unlike The Mountain, so many other characters have both hard hitting CC weapons AND guns.
Nerak wrote: Yeah.... I'm starting to think Drahzar is in fact not Ahra and furthermore that someone screwed up the date here.
Apparently the duel was the last time anyone saw Ahra. However it's set in 928.M41.
The story in 3ed was just that Karandras and Arha dueled for 17days and then Arha was never heard from or seen again.
The weird thing is Ahra dissapeared BEFORE the first Incubi shrine was formed in commoragath. Also Karandras changed the striking scorpion shrine before he taught it to the craftworlds. Karandras did not actually become the phoenix lord untill after this duel.
So if Drahzar is Ahra and the original incubi either he revealed his true self for this duel, Karandras became a phoenix lord some 70years ago or someone really messed up the date.
EDIT: ment to start a new thread about this but I can't on my phone for some reason. Bug?
JNAProductions wrote: So, since all Primarchs have IWND, Lelith needs to do over 1/3rd a wound per turn, or she can never, ever kill a Primarch.
She won't be able to wound t7 anywayz - unless she gets furious charge. But than, she has no Hit and Run. Technically, she has a chance of killing a primarch but it's close to a chance he's gona get hit with a meteor on that very arena and die anywayz
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, if we allow all the shooty weapons, than any tau commander with seeker missiles will probably evaporate her.
I suggest to get rid of non-melee weapons cause otherwise she has a chance of dying from a conscript with a frag grenade, cause no matter how awesome you are, you can't dodge frag.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/23 07:29:43
2016/11/23 17:04:41
Subject: Re:Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
Huh. Okay, so at S3 and T7, Primarchs can't even be scratched by Lelith.
Most Primarchs are T6. Only the toughest are T7 so far (Vulkan, Ferrus, and Mortarion, if memory serves). Given Magnus' stature, he might end up with T7 as well (He does as a Daemon Prince, given that recently-released stat line), but we don't have 30k rules for him yet.
2016/11/23 23:27:21
Subject: Name one character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel
I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked. But this whole thing does remind me of the (very) old original Aliens tabletop game as a solution. In it the marines have come up with a less than ideal strategy for when xenomorphs are swarming them- they drop frag grenades at their own feet. They know full well that their armour will protect them from the worst of it (though it's hardly safe) but the xenomorphs have zero protection. It's a gamble to be sure, but one that is worth taking when the enemy is so much faster than you.
Lilith has no armour to speak of. For most people such a tactic would probably be your best bet against her. She may be fast but she's not dodging shrapnel at melee range fast. Sure, you might kill/maim yourself but if the alternative is fighting her in hand to hand you may well have better odds with the grenade- especially if you're armoured like a marine.
Kojiro wrote: I had no idea Lilith was so overwanked. But this whole thing does remind me of the (very) old original Aliens tabletop game as a solution. In it the marines have come up with a less than ideal strategy for when xenomorphs are swarming them- they drop frag grenades at their own feet. They know full well that their armour will protect them from the worst of it (though it's hardly safe) but the xenomorphs have zero protection. It's a gamble to be sure, but one that is worth taking when the enemy is so much faster than you.
Lilith has no armour to speak of. For most people such a tactic would probably be your best bet against her. She may be fast but she's not dodging shrapnel at melee range fast. Sure, you might kill/maim yourself but if the alternative is fighting her in hand to hand you may well have better odds with the grenade- especially if you're armoured like a marine.
But she may be fast and keen enough to notice you dropping your grenade and then backing up until the explosion is over.
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