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Made in us
Galloping Guardsman





Lakewood, Colorado

Time 2 Roll wrote:
 motyak wrote:
All of the cards are going to be available online. You can pay to get them printed up like their cards on the same quality card stock etc, or you can just print it yourself. They feel this will allow them to update and tweak things that the community comes across through the community playtesting, and saving people from buying a model and having an out of date card too soon. So theoretically it's an improvement and I guess we'll see in time. I like my war room though so it doesn't really factor in to my gaming.


Thank you. That's what I understood as well but wanted to see if I was wrong.

I'm not a fan. If they have a problem playtesting these things, I wish they would follow Hawk Wargames model and release units new rules as a demo months ahead for people to play with and test before making them "official".

I just don't like scrolling through the several different cards on a device as I feel it slows the game down but if I can get them printed it's not so bad. Unless they are constantly changing them or I get gouged on shipping.

We'll see I guess. I can always print my own then as well.


They are going to be doing that with their playtesting, at least that's how I understood it when I was lurking on the PP forums trying to figure it all out. I was grumpy about the cards as well. After having Matt explain it on the forums (it is nice that the head honcho talks to his customers), it isn't the doom and gloom I thought it was.

They won't be constantly changing things left and right, they will only be doing the quick changes like Una2 if something is not working as designed and is breaking the game. Besides the occasional changes to tweak the balance, I don't see this being a deal breaker for me. I would rather an attempt to fix or adjust something be made on a small card than have to wait years to get a new codex that holds no promises on to whether or not my collection will be useful, or overpowered and take the fun out of the game.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Time 2 Roll wrote:Not thrilled they're removing the cards from the packages. Feels like a nickel and dime move if I have to keep buying the faction decks over and over (super excited at the prospect of having to rebuy the Skorne deck because they released something that wasn't done).

Or worse, is it all going digital?


Digital is better for pp, and better for us in multiple ways in terms of a game following the 'living rulebook' approach. If they have to update or make changes they can do it in an easy and straight forward manner, and it should easier for us at the other end to stay up to date. And I say this as a big fan of 'real' cards, but if you ask me, war room is close to indispensable in terms of its practicality and usefulness.

Time 2 Roll wrote:

Thank you. That's what I understood as well but wanted to see if I was wrong.

I'm not a fan. If they have a problem playtesting these things, I wish they would follow Hawk Wargames model and release units new rules as a demo months ahead for people to play with and test before making them "official".



They will be following this approach. Digital is simply better for this. Cards have to be printed, and once printed are 'fixed' and permanent. And should issues arise, printed cards can't be fixed as easier. Use of cardboard cards as the primary means of presenting rules actually holds privateer press back. One of the changes of mk3 Isi pp changing to a 'living rulebook' approach where necessary changes can be made and implemented easily. And communicated easily.

Privateer press will also be using the community as a resource to identify issues. See the Community integrated development. Think the best bits of the worldwide beta at the start of mk2.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?266073-FAQ-Errata-and-Community-Integrated-Development

Essentially new releases have a demo/beta period where pp can and will take feedback and will make changes as necessary.


Time 2 Roll wrote:
I just don't like scrolling through the several different cards on a device as I feel it slows the game down but if I can get them printed it's not so bad. Unless they are constantly changing them or I get gouged on shipping.

We'll see I guess. I can always print my own then as well.


Hmm, as I understand from Matt Wilson War room will be updated with the changes, so you shouldn't be dealing with multiple versions of a card - just what's current.

And you can print out your own cards as a PDF. Best of both worlds.

They should hopefully not be changing, but pp have indicated they plan to have a twice yearly errata to deal with problems and clarify rules issues. Even then, pp have been explicit they won't be using this for sweeping changes, but rather just to target obvious outliers that are having a negative effect on the game. Combined with the cid you've got a pretty robust system that is fully capable of dealing with any imbalances that arise. If you're worried about constantly changing things bear in mind, would you prefer the alternative of something broken or a negative play experience existing for years at a time with no means or ways of dealing with it? The latter is far more destructive for the long term health of a game.

If this was a computer game, we'd all want patches, rather than being stuck with a buggy beta.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/02/14 19:25:53


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Ireland

Back in the distant past of Prime when the book and cards were B&W it was a great system.The rules were fresh and felt like a breath of fresh air into what was a heavily dominated GW area. This for me changed when we stared to see the sheer glut of same faction taken to the max with each expansion, This also spilled over with the character models, first it was Epic casters, then what it is now I have no idea, but it is silly.

Instead of exploring the rich history of the world they created it was for far too long focused on 4 factions for each game system, to the point where the lines between the factions has blurred, what once made Khador unique to play can now be done by most factions. The game styles become watered down.

The game is now a nightmare for anyone who is new to enter, which must be a very daunting prospect. I imagine it turns people away.

For me the game was at it's best when it was a Caster some Warbeast/Warjacks and a unit. I think it become to heavily invested in units, the game should be about the big spectacle of watching hulking monsters and robots fight supported by their controller who helps to boost their abilities.

The game as it is now is a mess, however battlebox games can still be fun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/19 01:04:23


The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused. 
   
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Portland

Don't think I could have put it more succinctly. I completely agree w/ your assessment of history and current situation.


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
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FL

I would argue that is where the game is now too.

Infantry is still useful, but the average battlegroup is 3-5 jacks/beasts with a bit of support to taste. And it's very easy to go battlegroup heavy with most casters (who you wouldn't necessarily consider jack casters either).

It's much harder to build as infantry heavy then it was in mk2. And what's wrong with faction diversity? It cuts down on autolose matchups and prevents you from having to play into the same kinds of lists over and over again.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 stonehorse wrote:
Back in the distant past of Prime when the book and cards were B&W it was a great system.The rules were fresh and felt like a breath of fresh air into what was a heavily dominated GW area. This for me changed when we stared to see the sheer glut of same faction taken to the max with each expansion, This also spilled over with the character models, first it was Epic casters, then what it is now I have no idea, but it is silly.


I disagree. 'Epic' characters (which is really mk1 terminology) are absolutely fine for an ongoing storyline in what is essentially a character-centric game and they simply represent the changes those characters go through as the story moves forward. There have been some very interesting character evolutions in that time. I'd rather have three different versions of vlad or Stryker than three completely 'new' characters. Or even 'make your own' characters where everyone's special snowflake is a thing.

I also disagree that it 'was' a great system. Mk1 was brilliant, butnalso brilliantly flawed and had any amount of poorly designed ridiculous shenanigans that bogged a game down into tediousness. Mk2 was a huge leap forward, but had its issues. The game grew overall, but for all that, while there's are more units and things, I disagree that these have made the game worse.

 stonehorse wrote:

Instead of exploring the rich history of the world they created it was for far too long focused on 4 factions for each game system, to the point where the lines between the factions has blurred, what once made Khador unique to play can now be done by most factions. The game styles become watered down.
.


I think you might be out of touch with recent developments. Pp have done a lot exploring the history of the world. Firstly, check out skull island expeditions - their publishing arm. They've released quite a few collections and novels from some impressive names as well. Secondly, check out the iron kingdoms rpg material. Pp felt the rpg was the better method of exploring the world and its history, and there Is merit in that approach. The core books (ikrpg and unleashed) are backed up by some pretty epic source books like kings nations and gods as well Asmara some published adventures. If you want to see the richness of the world, there's where you go. And it's pretty epic if you ask me.

Also, it's not just the four factions any more. You're probsbly aware of the retribution of scyrah, the convergence of Cyriss and the cephalyx releases as well as the new hordes factions of grymkin- which look quite interesting if you ask me. Also there are the subfactions covered in the various mercenary/minion pacts.

Regarding the lines between the factions being blurred, that is an inevitable consequence of the growth of the game. And unless you want factions to stagnate and be pigeonholed into one idea, factions need To grow organically into other areas or they risk becoming a one dimensional charicature (blood angels with bloodfists, blood missiles and bloodnouns all over the place)This is inevitable, and frankly, necessary and is not a bad thing. All factions have varied playbooks. can do more than one thing, but they do them in subtle and different ways. This is a good thing for the health of the game. Khador, for example might have some shooting units but how they approach the shooting game is different to how retribution or cygnar do it. Khador is still khador and will never play, or be a red cygnar even if technically, they can now do some of the things that only cygnar did in the original release over ten years ago.

 stonehorse wrote:

The game is now a nightmare for anyone who is new to enter, which must be a very daunting prospect. I imagine it turns people away.


There is a lot of stuff there, but you don't need all of it to get going. There is any amount of advice and 'how to' guides from the community to prospective new people's thst it's not like chucking someone into the wilderness and expecting them to survive.

 stonehorse wrote:

For me the game was at it's best when it was a Caster some Warbeast/Warjacks and a unit. I think it become to heavily invested in units, the game should be about the big spectacle of watching hulking monsters and robots fight supported by their controller who helps to boost their abilities.


Firstly, hordes, aside from trolls has always been quite warpack-centric with minimum unit/solo support. Even trollbloods, arguably the most troops heavy hordes faction have the potential to go warbeast heavy. And in mk3, for warmachine with the new power up rule, it has shifted things up markedly to the point where now, it is entirely possible to go quite jack heavy and not suffer for it. Mk1 was a bit extreme in how infantry dominated at the expense of jacks. Mk2 pulled the pendulum back, but arguably not enough. Mk3 has shifted it back further almost to the point where your vision of a caster, warbeast/warjacks and a unit is a far from uncommon sight.

However, I think warmachine is, and should be more than just warjacks fighting each other. The game is bigger than that. While I appreciate (and like) the shift towards more jacks being playable, I don't agree with the positions that the gsme should just be about this. I like units. I liked the game when I could field lots of units too. Remember, jacks are rare. irusks 4th assault bridage has something like 20,000 infantry and 80 warjacks. I like the idea of jacks towering over squads of infantry - it gives them 'presence' if you ask me.


 stonehorse wrote:

The game as it is now is a mess, however battlebox games can still be fun.


I disagree. Ive enjoyed all my games of mk3 so far. I think mk3 made some very necessary changes, and privateer press' shift towards a 'living rulebook' is a very positive step.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/19 15:42:59


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
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Shangri-LA

 novaspike wrote:
And what's wrong with faction diversity? It cuts down on autolose matchups and prevents you from having to play into the same kinds of lists over and over again.


There is likely a sweet spot somewhere between faction diversity and the complete blurring of lines between factions to the point where factions are represented only by what colors you paint your army. For some it feels like PP has done the later rather than the former.


   
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Portland

Yup, feel it was some time early mkii where that line started to fall apart for me...


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
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Master of the Hunt




What lines were you using to define factions? I would honestly like to see a list/rundown of how the factions were defined in your eyes.

How would PP keep the game growing if the "shooty" faction just kept getting more "shooty" things and "melee" faction just got more of the same? Wouldn't people just say, "That's the same thing as that other thing that we already have. Can't we have some diversity?"

It seems as though you have put PP in a no win situation- keep the sharp lines and stagnate or blur the lines and lose faction identity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/22 02:27:13


 
   
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armies and nations adapt and change over time, they adjust to new realities,. I dont think that is a problem in the iron kingdoms, they are all essentially human beings, racing to build the newest better thing then their enemy. My only complaint with the whole thing is how damn difficult the "story" is to keep up with. the fluff is too spread out and as far as I know there is no where you can go to get the "up to date" on the evolving plotline.
   
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DarkTraveler777 wrote:
There is likely a sweet spot somewhere between faction diversity and the complete blurring of lines between factions to the point where factions are represented only by what colors you paint your army. For some it feels like PP has done the later rather than the former.



spiralingcadaver wrote:Yup, feel it was some time early mkii where that line started to fall apart for me...


Where would you define those lines?

Genuine question.


thekingofkings wrote:armies and nations adapt and change over time, they adjust to new realities,. I dont think that is a problem in the iron kingdoms, they are all essentially human beings, racing to build the newest better thing then their enemy. My only complaint with the whole thing is how damn difficult the "story" is to keep up with. the fluff is too spread out and as far as I know there is no where you can go to get the "up to date" on the evolving plotline.


Pp will be moving over to using skull islands expedition as the main avenue of pushing the fluff forward.

Still, no quarter is great for the gavin Kyle files (love them! They recently dropped a bombshell of vlad marrying the empress), and the more recent fluff discussions (arms and armaments and tactics, training fighting styles of the various units in the game)the rpg is great for setting information, and in terms of the current 'state' of things, prime and primal do a pretty good job of laying it all out, whilst the command books give a good overview of the individual factions.

The tl; dr is that two years of uneasy peace is ending. Khador is getting aggressive again!

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
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Portland

Honestly, DN, it's been quite some time since I've played. A couple years back, I could give you a clearer answer and probably ranted a bit, but I've just mostly lost interest... I don't keep up with any meta and mostly think I'm holding on to the armies I am out of nostalgia.

I think part of it was probably that everyone got the same new toys (colossals, etc.) at the same time, which I totally understand, but suddenly it meant everyone had a strong option for super armor or w/e. And, as more casters appeared, it felt like they eventually became less distinct as PP realized which spells were good for roles and suddenly someone's signature ability was on a few different pieces.

I eventually dropped circle because I already had fast move through cover options, and even if it was only on a couple casters or fewer units in a force I already had, I didn't care about the extra options in circle when I could just play circle-light in a faction I knew better. Same reason I dropped khador despite having a fairly large collection there-- they used to be the heavyweights with some epic infantry, but as other infantry got better and factions all got a ton of heavy options, their distinctness kind of faded for me and I was able to fill that niche in list design in factions I had larger collections for.

Factions definitely still had their specializations, but with such a glut of warcaster styles and general options, a big enough collection in another faction could do something similar.

...Does that make sense?


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Shangri-LA

Deadnight wrote:
DarkTraveler777 wrote:
There is likely a sweet spot somewhere between faction diversity and the complete blurring of lines between factions to the point where factions are represented only by what colors you paint your army. For some it feels like PP has done the later rather than the former.



spiralingcadaver wrote:Yup, feel it was some time early mkii where that line started to fall apart for me...


Where would you define those lines?

Genuine question.


My comment above was to novaspike's question about faction diversity. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that (faction diversity), and there is likely a sweet spot to be achieved in some hypothetical thought exercise, but PP didn't achieve that with WM/H (my opinion).

I stopped playing after MK II's beta test, so I'd agree with spiralingcadaver that the blurring of the factions was somewhere in MKII.

MKI had issues, but even with four expansions + the Pirates release, the games' factions maintained a semblance of individual uniqueness. Cryx were tricky glass cannons with lots of magic and kill vectors, Khador had insane armor, were slow, low magic, but hit like a sock-jack, Cygnar had lighting, disruption, and shooting, Menoth was all about denial, torching troops and countering magic, and Mercs were supplemental and the debate at the time was "are they really a faction?"

I've tried to get back in to WM for years now, but everything I have read just makes the game seem bloated and miserable. The factions are not reminiscent of the factions I originally bought and painted and there doesn't seem to be a through-line among them. Cygnar is blue, but they aren't the shooting army any more. Khador does shooting. Trolls do shooting. Legion does shooting. Cryx is green, but they aren't the recursion or magic army any more, because Legion can do that. Circle can do that. Hell, the new not-Malifaux faction apparently are bad ass at recursion too. Neat! ( ) I think even Menoth does recursion now, but I may be mistaken there.

My point is, after a while the defining elements of the factions seem to have been lost which takes a lot of flavor out of the game.



   
Made in us
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To be clear both of you are basing your opinions on impressions made about five years ago. Don't you think that you should actually try the game out again before making your declarations about Mk3?
Yes, Khador can shoot now- but not as well as Cygnar.
Yes, Menoth has one caster who can do recursion (once as a feat)- but that is hardly Cryx level recursion. I'm not sure what recursion Everblight can do besides one caster's feat. One model can use body tokens to make a new light warbeast but again that's hardly Cryx level.
Hearing about a game or even looking at it is a poor basis for making up ones mind about the game. You are, of course, free to make up your minds however you like but I think that you are shortchanging both yourselves and the game at the moment.
   
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Portland

I was asked when I got an impression about how the game changed. I didn't say I stopped playing then.

I haven't played mkIII because I didn't feel like dropping $40 on a game I wasn't super in to, to keep up, but am willing to give it a try once the living army stuff drops, but I think it would take a miracle surpassing the mediocre reception it got for me to do more than play with the collection I have and maybe paint a few things I never got around to.


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Shangri-LA


Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Hearing about a game or even looking at it is a poor basis for making up ones mind about the game. You are, of course, free to make up your minds however you like but I think that you are shortchanging both yourselves and the game at the moment.


While what you say is true, it is missing the point.

I stopped playing in the MK II beta because I didn't like the direction of the changes being made. I was also livid that the Legends models I had just bought were being changed only a few months after release. Every few years when I'd check in on the state of the game all I'd see are the issues that made me quit playing in the first place. Hell, a couple years ago I broke down and bought a Cryx MKII deck a Cryx faction book and the MK II Prime. I read through everything and hated what I found. You know what didn't happen when I read MKI? I didn't hate it. I loved it. I got so excited I went out and bought multiple factions and pushed hard to get the game played at my LGS. But MK II just left me numb.

So why would I invest (more) time and (more) money giving a game that I perceive to be problematic a shot? My nostalgia for MKI is not that strong.

I already spent thousands on MKI, I don't need to give PP any more money. If I could play without paying more money I would give it a shot. But that isn't going to happen (playing for free).

And more to the point what reason has PP given me to take a risk at trying their new rule set? A rule set apparently so hamfistedly launched that the cards were retconned almost immediately upon release and they had to redo Skorne only a few months later. Oh, I get to pay for an app to play with instead of cards because of a "living rule book"? Awesome, more money to spend!

Now, am I short changing MKIII by not trying it? Maybe. But from reading the PP boards, especially the Cryx ones, I don't think I am missing much. And isn't that the point of this thread? To identify what people perceive to be wrong with Warmahordes. Well, when those people give their impressions replying with "Aw, c'mon, give the game a try!" comes off as kinda tone deaf.




   
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Portland

Yeah, I was basically over the moon with the first book, had a pretty charming kinda' low budget competitive thing going on. Turned out it didn't have great balance, but I liked it and the next couple books. But the attitude shift in 2nd edition was pretty frustrating.

BTW, I thought cards were going to be free in basic PDF form with the LRB? Was I wrong?


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Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Yes, Menoth has one caster who can do recursion (once as a feat)- but that is hardly Cryx level recursion. I'm not sure what recursion Everblight can do besides one caster's feat. One model can use body tokens to make a new light warbeast but again that's hardly Cryx level.


Clearly you haven't seen or played against Mk3 Cryx, because their recursion is absolute garbage now. Cryx level recursion in Mk2 was amazing, Cryx recursion in Mk3 pales in comparison to the likes of High Reclaimer, and apparently even the new Grymkin. It was SO bad that one of the major recursion feats in Mk2, Gaspy2, got nerfed into such a state no one played him until the new errata made him somewhat usable again.

THIS is a perfect example of the almost complete removal of faction identity, another that you mention is how Cygnar are still the premier shooting faction, while Idrians, kitted out Winter Guard and Farrow Brigands are some of the best shooting units in the game at the moment. Cygnar have a minor form of an identity in their lightning ability, although even that is seemingly changing with some of the teases about Convergence

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I'm not a developer of the game so I'm not going to defend it. You see it how you see it and I see it as I see it.

The thread is titled "What is wrong with Warmachine?" If I see that someone says that X is wrong and I feel differently then I'm going to point out why I think that they are wrong. If someone agrees or disagrees then so be it. I've had my say and they've had theirs.

BTW: the rules are now free via download at the PP website. Cards will be available for free around June/July IIRC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/24 01:45:54


 
   
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Midwest USA

I played Khador for about a year at the height of MkII, and I haven't been back to play in over a year. Why is that? The players, the rules, the models, and the attitude.

Bear in mind that I started wargaming in Warhammer 40K at the height of 5th edition, with an Imperial Guard army.

Firstly, the players in my local area are very, VERY, competitive (at least at the time). I gave it a shot. I picked up a bunch of models, I read forums and tactics, watched dozens of battle reports on YouTube, researched the game like crazy, and put more effort into the game than was probably healthy. In about 40 games I played over that year (about one a week or so), I won 3 games. THREE. One was my first demo game where my opponent showed me exactly how to use my warcaster's feat and spells to go for ran assassination against his warcaster. The second was in a mangled metal game where I was able to eyeball within a half an inch for a perfect charge, which swung the game in my favor. The third was against a Cryx recursion list that failed a bunch of rolls against my Warcaster, giving me time to reform the line and assassinate their caster. I won't complain about the mechanics allowing for assassinations or chesey shenanigans, nor will I complain about not being strong enough as a player. And while the players did a good job early on in trying to teach me how to play and gave several suggestions on how to win, it was never enough to help me pull through a victory. But when one of them says to another "let's go to another store across the state and screw up their meta", that tells me how competitive the community is, which I am not. There is nothing wrong with being competitive, it just isn't for me at all. To be fair, I haven't been back to play there in over a year, so things may have changed. Winning is not everything to me by any means, but it could really be a turn off for newer players trying to get into the game.

Secondly, the rules didn't mesh with my brain. Sure, it was balanced out pretty well, but some of them just didn't click in my head. I also made the mistake early on of playing with the models that I thought looked cool, rather than what was "good". Trying to keep up with the local players, I fixed this by not finishing my Man-o-War units and going for the WGI Death Star, getting a Behemoth model rather than a Decimator, and Doom Reavers instead of Manhunters. I was trying to fit in and play at the level of the locals. Later, I skimmed through MkIII when it came out, looking at what would affect my Khador army, and there were some good changes. But I was able to see how PP was making changes to help sell different products; Man-o-war units getting better, while the Winter Guard Death Star dropped in power in favor of the WG Rifle Corps. While the game played the same and Warjacks were now much better (especially for Khador as they got cheaper in points), there were enough other changes that I had trouble wrapping my brain around them all.

Third, the models. I can forgive a model's rules not being good (I got used to that with 40K), but the choices of the designers gave me nightmares. I despised assembling the multi-part pewter models (single pose, fully assembled were not an issue for me), that stuff used on the Iron Fang Pikemen plastic kit was atrocious, and it was almost impossible to pin some of the models's joints since the pieces were so awkward and fragile. I never could get my Sorscha2 to stay together. And what was the deal with the re-pack for the Iron Fang Uhlans? Soft resin horses and solid pewter riders? I had to get really creative to get them to not bend under the weight of the pewter. And then the detail amount between older and newer model sculpts was so stark and contrasting that I did not want to field certain combinations of units for aesthetic reasons.

Fourth, the attitude that I perceived of the community at large. I am generalizing, but the smug superiority I felt from certain comments just rubbed me the wrong way, especially when comparing PP to GW.
"PP doesn't make new models overpowered like GW!" Yes, they did. They both did. I seem to recall it being really bad for Hordes more so, but I remember this being a thing.
"Learn to play! Get good! Play like you've got a pair!" I learned, I tried, and I don't appreciate comments that I can't use in front of my (then six year old) step-daughter.
"No conversions or scratch builds allowed! PP knows what they are doing for the models!" Granted, this is not such an issue nowadays, but when you have abstracted out the rules for a model's height and width bsaed on their base size, why does this matter?
I tried to not be bothered by it, but the comments I heard early on by the Warmahordes players I know to still be playing in my area, but it was the final straw. After trying for a year to participate, I decided to give it a break and come back later. I heard about MkIII coming out, I got the core rulebooks, but it just wasn't enough.

My experience may be entirely anecdotal, but looks to me like several others have had similar experiences to me. This game isn't for everyone, and that's okay. I was aggravated and disappointed at my experiences, but I bear no ill will anymore to the players, the community, or the company. I only wish them all the best, and I hope PP gets Warmachine and Hordes back up their former glory. However, I do feel that PP needs to make the game more accessible to newer players to keep the game from stagnating.

I am a GW fan, but I do know that competition is a good things for everyone. GW can't sit on its laurels again, and PP can't either. When companies compete, customers win.

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 BunkhouseBuster wrote:
I picked up a bunch of models, I read forums and tactics, watched dozens of battle reports on YouTube, researched the game like crazy, and put more effort into the game than was probably healthy.

I also made the mistake early on of playing with the models that I thought looked cool, rather than what was "good".


See, these days at least, that'd be a big alarm bell to me. When you get funneled into a specific shopping list and have to study for a game, you have to wonder if it matches the definition of the term.

But when one of them says to another "let's go to another store across the state and screw up their meta", that tells me how competitive the community is, which I am not. There is nothing wrong with being competitive...


Apparently, there's something wrong with it.

I am a GW fan, but I do know that competition is a good things for everyone. GW can't sit on its laurels again, and PP can't either. When companies compete, customers win.


When that competition boils down to the same 'look at the shiny rules that this shiny model gets!' tactic, not so much. It's like Kellogs and Nestlé competing to see who can cram the most sugar per lb of cereal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/24 17:58:17


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Re: competition, I'd beg to differ-- GW's been pretty shaken up by the influx of competition and has been doing more interesting and, frankly, more competent (which isn't to say perfect) things in the last few years than when they were coasting on their market share. I think Buster was exactly right there.

Unlike Buster, I got in close to the ground floor, and was highly competitive in the game, never did the tournament thing, but did my fair share of wrecking. And yeah, the entire environment was shaped by PP being the anti-GW, which meant they were competitive with pretty tight rules. But then that got to be the only attitude, and was one of many contributing factors to me bailing on the line. And I was definitely part of that crowd who thought PP was awesome and GW shown as a bloated behemoth that didn't know how to get gak done. Again, I'm agreed with Buster, that PP's currently mostly been resting on their laurels by not really doing much other than shuffle things around for their die-hard fans.


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No offense Buster but based on what you are saying the people in your meta were/are Aholes. Anyone who says "let's screw these people over for fun" is not someone that i would want to spend time with for any reason.

Sometimes the game doesn't fit the person and sometimes the meta doesn't fit. In you case it sounds like a little of the former and a lot of the latter.

I hope that if/when you try PP again it's with people who really play the game competitively but mostly to have fun (the 2 not being mutually exclusive). Best of luck.
   
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Midwest USA

 Vermis wrote:
 BunkhouseBuster wrote:
I picked up a bunch of models, I read forums and tactics, watched dozens of battle reports on YouTube, researched the game like crazy, and put more effort into the game than was probably healthy.

I also made the mistake early on of playing with the models that I thought looked cool, rather than what was "good".

See, these days at least, that'd be a big alarm bell to me. When you get funneled into a specific shopping list and have to study for a game, you have to wonder if it matches the definition of the term..
To be fair, I was really excited to try the game out. Meeting new players, trying out a new (and supposedly "better") rules set, and a new aesthetic for models all appealed to me. I had been a GW player for about 4 or 5 years when I started my Khador army, and was wanting to try something new.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
No offense Buster but based on what you are saying the people in your meta were/are Aholes. Anyone who says "let's screw these people over for fun" is not someone that i would want to spend time with for any reason.

Sometimes the game doesn't fit the person and sometimes the meta doesn't fit. In you case it sounds like a little of the former and a lot of the latter.

I hope that if/when you try PP again it's with people who really play the game competitively but mostly to have fun (the 2 not being mutually exclusive). Best of luck.
No offense taken! I'm just sharing my experiences. But I agree, the players and community make a huge difference in the experience. But when this store is 45 minutes away from home, and the next closest one being almost 2 hours away, I'm lacking in other players.

I haven't parted with any of my Khador models yet (since I can't bring myself to part with a model I have painted), but I am hesitant to get back into it anytime soon, at least while I am living where I do, since petty politics and high school drama were plaguing the local wargamer scene a few years back...

Basically, a second FLGS opened upa couple years before the first store had some drama with a guy who organized a BUNCH of wargame tournaments, particularly for GW games. He got banned from the first store, so he and all of his friends began to congregate at the second store, now nearly all the GW tournaments and clubs are meeting at the second store. So now it's the WarmaHordes players in the older store, and all of the GW players at the other store.

Add in the fact that the local press ganger works for the first store, won't support the other store because of that, who at one point criticized me for buying a GW kit a few months back ("They'll never get any of my money again!" he said, verbatim, as he was ringing up my transaction at the first store), and the fact that that very press ganger was the one who mentioned going to other store to screw with their meta. Unless the newer, second store starts to get more interested in PP games, I will be focusing on other games and projects.

I sure hope that other communities don't have the petty drama like we do here. Ugh. At least it is toned down now.

Current projects:
Age of Sigmar
- Ironjawz

40K
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Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
No offense Buster but based on what you are saying the people in your meta were/are Aholes. Anyone who says "let's screw these people over for fun" is not someone that i would want to spend time with for any reason.

Sometimes the game doesn't fit the person and sometimes the meta doesn't fit. In you case it sounds like a little of the former and a lot of the latter.

I hope that if/when you try PP again it's with people who really play the game competitively but mostly to have fun (the 2 not being mutually exclusive). Best of luck.
No offense taken! I'm just sharing my experiences. But I agree, the players and community make a huge difference in the experience. But when this store is 45 minutes away from home, and the next closest one being almost 2 hours away, I'm lacking in other players.

I haven't parted with any of my Khador models yet (since I can't bring myself to part with a model I have painted), but I am hesitant to get back into it anytime soon, at least while I am living where I do, since petty politics and high school drama were plaguing the local wargamer scene a few years back...

Basically, a second FLGS opened upa couple years before the first store had some drama with a guy who organized a BUNCH of wargame tournaments, particularly for GW games. He got banned from the first store, so he and all of his friends began to congregate at the second store, now nearly all the GW tournaments and clubs are meeting at the second store. So now it's the WarmaHordes players in the older store, and all of the GW players at the other store.

Add in the fact that the local press ganger works for the first store, won't support the other store because of that, who at one point criticized me for buying a GW kit a few months back ("They'll never get any of my money again!" he said, verbatim, as he was ringing up my transaction at the first store), and the fact that that very press ganger was the one who mentioned going to other store to screw with their meta. Unless the newer, second store starts to get more interested in PP games, I will be focusing on other games and projects.

I sure hope that other communities don't have the petty drama like we do here. Ugh. At least it is toned down now.


I have been kind out Warmahordes as well, but mostly because I have been turned off with how some of the rules were and the balance kind of being wonky later on in mkii and the community being overbearing. Now for a disclaimer, I love being competitive to a large extent but I want to have fun and make friends during the process so to speak. My experience with some players I used to play with is they can be friendly but they put competition first and foremost. And some that I did play with seem to get on my case if I did play another game, but this were players who were not frequent people there. However, not at the level of drama you suffered so I am sorry you got gak on by a douche. Granted I have my personal opinions of GW and their main games to some extent (Blood Bowl I do actually like), but if I was a store owner and it was paying the bills, I am not gonna bite the hand that feeds so to speak and stock them.

On the point though, not only is that uncalled for but that does seem like a big conflict of interest that the guy was a local press ganger and an employee at a store. Which seems he is trying to push a specific agenda at his store, which is usually a receipt for disaster. Hopefully your other projects do go well for you (and what I found is outside of 40k or Warmahordes, there tends to be a large difference with how communities act from playing Bolt Action, X-Wing and the like. Granted there are some that can be bad, but my experience with those games tend to be quite different but also welcoming. Hopefully something new is better for you or you find some good people to game with if you are getting back to GW games. Best of luck!

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The obligatory non-40/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.

Momento Mori 
   
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I'm pretty sure that PGs are not allowed to work for the store that they are responsible for covering. Also PP discourages PGs from putting down other gaming systems/companies. You should put in a word about this to the quartermaster at PP. Maybe after that things will get better for the environment.

Here is a link if you want to take the time:
http://privateerpressforums.com/member.php?126146-PPS_JamesA
   
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Norn Iron

spiralingcadaver wrote:Re: competition, I'd beg to differ-- GW's been pretty shaken up by the influx of competition and has been doing more interesting and, frankly, more competent (which isn't to say perfect) things in the last few years than when they were coasting on their market share. I think Buster was exactly right there.


Sure. I noticed GW seemed to take some influence from Confrontation's success, way back when, and with their more recent financial woes it's more apparent. But I don't know if fancier plastics, video game licenses and dusted-off board games fundamentally change the 'shiny rules for shiny models' thing that 40K and WFB had, and that AoS continues. They just say it on Warhammer TV now.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:No offense Buster but based on what you are saying the people in your meta were/are Aholes. Anyone who says "let's screw these people over for fun" is not someone that i would want to spend time with for any reason.

Sometimes the game doesn't fit the person and sometimes the meta doesn't fit. In you case it sounds like a little of the former and a lot of the latter.


When the game is heavily marketed and reknowned as ultra-competitive, I'd hazard it doesn't exactly do much to dampen those antagonistic, jerky qualities, wherever they turn up. Backpedalling and saying 'hey, page five was only a little joke!' isn't much use when you've printed it thousands(?) of times and distributed it among listbuilding ex-GW players.

BunkhouseBuster wrote:To be fair, I was really excited to try the game out. Meeting new players, trying out a new (and supposedly "better") rules set, and a new aesthetic for models all appealed to me. I had been a GW player for about 4 or 5 years when I started my Khador army, and was wanting to try something new.


I know the feeling! I was in the same boat - I still have some Cygnar minis about here somewhere.

But years and several different games later, it feels like... disgruntled gamers get the first train out of GW city, and get off at the first stop - which might be one of a handful of games, but WMH in this case. But it's such a short distance away that it practically feels like a suburb of GW. What I mean is, WMH may be more balanced than 40K - it's not an especially high bar - but other factors are so similar:

- The 'full package' of rules, minis and background - which is convenient and unified, but also intended to keep you locked in to GW's/PP's system. As one small example, see recent comments about how even conversions of a PP model can be frowned upon, because they don't precisely fit 'the system'.

- The unit-specific special rules, the imbalance, and shifting meta. Three things, but linked, IMO. Each one arguably leading to the next. Buster's anecdote about having to buy the 'right' minis doesn't come as a shock. I see complaints that Cryx recursion has been nerfed; I don't have a clue what recursion is, but it's plain that it's a mechanic or rule that Cryx should specialise in, but don't anymore. Cryx suffers from that, compared to other factions. I see nostalgic comments about the old game with a Warcaster, some jacks, and maybe a handful of other minis. Does that mean that WMH is suffering from the same 'buy more' bloat that eventually knackered WHFB?
Overall, I see complaints about MkIII. Some comments that changes were necessary (which I won't argue with) but also comments about how it upsets things, upsets the meta. (And when I see the importance placed on a game's 'meta' - by direct comment or how often it's mentioned - that's another warning bell to me. Indicates how much effort you'll have to put into gaming the system as opposed to playing the game) It may rebalance the game, but I'll bet a lot of players who stay on will have to buy more minis - the 'right' ones.
All things that GW has done, or accusations that've been leveled at them. Leads me onto...

- Listbuilding. I see people say that WMH is more tactical than 40K (again, low bar) but also about how dependent it is on combos, about new players being skewered by carefully set-up 'assassinations', and so on. GW has mathammering and formations/battalions; PP has combos. Again, all dependent on having a list of the 'right' minis with the right special rules to buy. And so...

- Miniatures. Maybe the least complaint; fancy, flashy models can be undeniably desirable. But like I say, it's a bit different when they come with a pageful or cardful of special rules. It creates a mental link - you have to buy that model for those rules - but can also create a false impression of how flashy the model really is.
And c'mon, did anyone else think the watchamacallems - the gargantuans? - were taking the wee-wee a bit, and trying to cash in on GW's increasing reliance on big monsters, walkers etc.?

PP may have started out with a reputation as the anti-GW, but from a few steps back the line gets very blurry. I'd propose that WMH's popularity wasn't based on doing things wildly differently to GW, but from PP doing the same thing as GW, with a couple of balance and tactical tweaks.

I'm not about to start forbidding people from playing WMH, or commanding that they should immediately start mixing up model ranges, rulesets and backgrounds. (Dear Santa, this Christmas I'd like a very specific superpower...) It'd help if more people simply realised the rail line out of GW city goes a lot further, though. Or to mangle another metaphor even further: there's Kelloggs and Nestlé, but have you ever been introduced to the world of toast...?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/25 17:08:30


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"...with a bit of imagination (remember when we used to have to use that in fantasy games?)" 
   
Made in us
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Portland

Oh, I totally agree that GW tends towards shallow. But, they've also been making some pretty good board games (Silver Tower definitely has flaws, but has quite a few good elements which have nothing to do with its predecessors, for instance), and have started to get better at making more niche or distinct material that I think drew so many people in around 3rd edition.

Their games are still bloated and designed to move toy soldiers with terrible balance, and I think a ton of what they're doing is banking on nostalgia, but I'm kinda' appreciating what they're up to right now, which I couldn't say a few years back.


Also, nice comparison.


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You know every says page 5 was there to show how ultra competitive or how to be a jerk and be covered by the company.

Here's what page 5 really says:

1) No whining - I think that a vast majority of players of whatever game can appreciate this statement;

2)Come Heavy or don't come at all- bring your best and let's play it against my best. I don't see anything about being a jerk in this statement but that's where most people find it;

3) Give as good as you get - again a very common piece of tactical wargame advice;

4)Win graciously and lose valiantly- not a bad piece of advice for life in general and;

5)Page 5 is not an excuse- this is the part of page 5 most people forget/ignore. The people who are jerks point to the other parts of the page but ignore this part. PP is basically saying "Play hard, play fair but whatever you do have fun and make sure your opponent is doing the same.

How this translates to be an ultracompetitive jerk per the rules of the game escapes me. It doesn't matter what the rules say to those people they'll just find other excuses for their behavior.

/rant
   
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Portland

Because content isn't everything. The tone was very aggressive. They did a great job defining themselves as different, but a large part of that was due to that very tone, setting themselves as the anti-GW, instead of play nice, play fluffy. Couldn't find an image of it, but it certainly isn't the page 5 of later editions that they backpedaled on.


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